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Thread: Where is the evidence that mormonism is true?

  1. #201
    dberrie2000
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    Quote Originally Posted by hogan60 View Post
    dberrie, are you saying that Paul contradicted himself when he said in Eph. 2:8,9 it is by grace we are saved and not of works? Do you really believe Paul turned around and taught something completely different?
    Hi Hogan:

    Two points here:

    1) How does being saved by grace somehow negate the fact the scriptures testify God gives this grace(that which does save)--to them which obey Him?

    1 John 1:7---King James Version (KJV)
    7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

    2 Thessalonians 1:7-9---King James Version (KJV)
    7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
    8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
    9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;


    Galatians 5:19-21--King James Version (KJV)
    19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
    20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
    21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

    Romans 2:5-11--King James Version (KJV)
    5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
    6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
    7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
    8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
    9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
    10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
    11 For there is no respect of persons with God.

    2) When Paul used the terms "works", "works of the Law", "the law", etc--those were references to rituals under the Mosaic Law--such as circumcision--not obedience to the Gospel.

    Again--how do you collate your theology to the above scriptures?

    As for 2Thess.1:7-9, Paul is talking about unbelievers in the Day of the Lord. They don't believe in Jesus, therefore, they don't believe in His Gospel. Obeying the Gospel is believing (having faith) in it. When we speak about obeying the Gospel we are referring to what one must do in order to be justified.
    Can one be saved without being justified?

    Acts 16:31 "And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.
    Acts 16:31-34--King James Version (KJV)
    31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.
    32 And they spake unto him the word of the Lord, and to all that were in his house.
    33 And he took them the same hour of the night, and washed their stripes; and was baptized, he and all his, straightway.
    34 And when he had brought them into his house, he set meat before them, and rejoiced, believing in God with all his house.

    The way I read that--it was not until they were baptized those of the house were pronounced as "believing in God". Is water baptism connected to belief--as an integral component?

    Hogan--terms always include all the components that make them up. Faith without works is dead, being alone.

  2. #202
    hogan60
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    Quote Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
    Hi Hogan:

    Two points here:

    1) How does being saved by grace somehow negate the fact the scriptures testify God gives this grace(that which does save)--to them which obey Him?

    1 John 1:7---King James Version (KJV)
    7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

    2 Thessalonians 1:7-9---King James Version (KJV)
    7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
    8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
    9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;


    Galatians 5:19-21--King James Version (KJV)
    19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
    20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
    21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

    Romans 2:5-11--King James Version (KJV)
    5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
    6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
    7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
    8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
    9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
    10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
    11 For there is no respect of persons with God.

    2) When Paul used the terms "works", "works of the Law", "the law", etc--those were references to rituals under the Mosaic Law--such as circumcision--not obedience to the Gospel.

    Again--how do you collate your theology to the above scriptures?



    Can one be saved without being justified?



    Acts 16:31-34--King James Version (KJV)
    31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.
    32 And they spake unto him the word of the Lord, and to all that were in his house.
    33 And he took them the same hour of the night, and washed their stripes; and was baptized, he and all his, straightway.
    34 And when he had brought them into his house, he set meat before them, and rejoiced, believing in God with all his house.

    The way I read that--it was not until they were baptized those of the house were pronounced as "believing in God". Is water baptism connected to belief--as an integral component?

    Hogan--terms always include all the components that make them up. Faith without works is dead, being alone.
    When we believe in Christ's atoning work at the cross, we are then saved (have salvation). We are justified the moment we put our faith in Christ. Romans 5:1 "Therefore, being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ."

    Justification includes forgiveness of sins, the removal of guilt and imputation of righteousness. All of this takes place the moment you trust Christ for salvation.


    The source of justification is God's free grace. Romans 3:24 says, "Being justified freely by his grace, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus."

    The ground of justification is Christ's blood. Romans 5:9 says, "Much more ... being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him."

    The condition for justification is faith in Christ. Galatians 2:16 "Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ."


    The evidence of justification is good works. Ephesians 2:10 says, "For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them."

    Justification is the result of the grace of God reaching down. It is not the result of any works that we do.

  3. #203
    dberrie2000
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    Quote Originally Posted by hogan60 View Post
    When we believe in Christ's atoning work at the cross, we are then saved (have salvation). We are justified the moment we put our faith in Christ. Romans 5:1 "Therefore, being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ."

    Justification includes forgiveness of sins, the removal of guilt and imputation of righteousness. All of this takes place the moment you trust Christ for salvation.


    The source of justification is God's free grace. Romans 3:24 says, "Being justified freely by his grace, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus."

    The ground of justification is Christ's blood. Romans 5:9 says, "Much more ... being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him."

    The condition for justification is faith in Christ. Galatians 2:16 "Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ."


    The evidence of justification is good works. Ephesians 2:10 says, "For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them."

    Justification is the result of the grace of God reaching down. It is not the result of any works that we do.
    Hi Hogan:

    All of mankind was justified by His Blood:

    Romans 5:18---King James Version (KJV)
    18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

    IOW--all were absolved from the condemnation brought upon all men due to the Fall--and now--are judged according to their own choices, and not Adam's.

    So--are those who walk in the light--those who have faith in Christ?

    1 John 1:7---King James Version (KJV)
    7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

    Where does it state in the Biblical NT--one is saved the "moment we put our faith in Christ"?

    Matthew 10:22---King James Version (KJV)
    22 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.

    Were these saved previous to the remission of sins?

    Acts 2:38---King James Version (KJV)
    38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

    Matthew 19:16-19----King James Version (KJV)
    16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
    17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
    18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
    19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

  4. #204
    hogan60
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    Quote Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
    Hi Hogan:


    Where does it state in the Biblical NT--one is saved the "moment we put our faith in Christ"?

    .
    Because Jesus Christ alone saves.

    Acts 4:12, " Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved."

    John 5:13 ďI write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life.Ē

    God promises us eternal life when we believe in Jesus Christ.

    Romans 5:1 "Since we have been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ."

    We are justified by faith in Christ.

    "For God so loved the world that He gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish, but have eternal life.Ē (John 3:16)

    The moment you put your faith in Christ, who died for your sins and rose again, you have eternal life and will live forever with God! Eternal life is a gift, given by God, to anyone who will put their trust in Jesus Christ as Savior. This is called grace, because God is giving us something we donít deserve-life forever with Him.

  5. #205
    hogan60
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    Quote Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
    Hi Hogan:

    All of mankind was justified by His Blood:

    Romans 5:18---King James Version (KJV)
    18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

    IOW--all were absolved from the condemnation brought upon all men due to the Fall--and now--are judged according to their own choices, and not Adam's.

    So--are those who walk in the light--those who have faith in Christ?

    .
    “And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world” (1 John 2:2).

    Yes, Christ died for every man, woman and child. The offer of salvation is universal, but only to those who believe (John 3:18).

    Let's say you have a million dollars in the bank. If you don't believe that you do and never make the transaction, you will never benefit from it.

    All of mankind was not justified by His blood. ONLY those who believe on Christ alone for salvation.

  6. #206
    dberrie2000
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    Quote Originally Posted by hogan60 View Post
    “And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world” (1 John 2:2).

    Yes, Christ died for every man, woman and child. The offer of salvation is universal, but only to those who believe (John 3:18).

    Let's say you have a million dollars in the bank. If you don't believe that you do and never make the transaction, you will never benefit from it.

    All of mankind was not justified by His blood. ONLY those who believe on Christ alone for salvation.
    The scriptures testify God shed His Blood for all of mankind:

    1 John 2:2--King James Version (KJV)
    2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

    That absolved all from the condemnation of the Fall--and brought us all under the gospel of grace--as He bought us with a price.

    Those who God extends this Blood unto the forgiveness of sins--are these:

    1 John 1:7---King James Version (KJV)[B]
    7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

    The Atonement did not forgive anyone's sins--but it did make it possible for sins to be forgiven, under the gospel of grace.

    And that, through our obedience to Christ:

    Hebrews 5:9---King James Version (KJV)
    9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

  7. #207
    hogan60
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    Quote Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
    The scriptures testify God shed His Blood for all of mankind:

    1 John 2:2--King James Version (KJV)
    2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

    That absolved all from the condemnation of the Fall--and brought us all under the gospel of grace--as He bought us with a price.

    Those who God extends this Blood unto the forgiveness of sins--are these:

    1 John 1:7---King James Version (KJV)[B]
    7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

    The Atonement did not forgive anyone's sins--but it did make it possible for sins to be forgiven, under the gospel of grace.

    And that, through our obedience to Christ:

    Hebrews 5:9---King James Version (KJV)
    9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;
    When Christ finished the work of the cross, He was able to forgive the whole human race. Theyíre forgiven. But it does them no good until they appropriate it by faith. God has reconciled the whole world. Itís finished. Christ Himself said that. But, it canít be done until we believe. The work of the cross was total in the forgiveness of mankindís sin. But it does us no good until we appropriate it by faith.

    Romans 3:25a

    "Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood,.

    Jesus Himself is the propitiation and it is again accomplished through our faith

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    Quote Originally Posted by hogan60 View Post
    When Christ finished the work of the cross, He was able to forgive the whole human race. They’re forgiven. But it does them no good until they appropriate it by faith. God has reconciled the whole world. It’s finished. Christ Himself said that. But, it can’t be done until we believe. The work of the cross was total in the forgiveness of mankind’s sin. But it does us no good until we appropriate it by faith.

    Romans 3:25a

    "Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood,.

    Jesus Himself is the propitiation and it is again accomplished through our faith
    a word to the wise:

    you have heard the verse-- do not cast pearls before swine--haven't you? those of us who have been here longer than you know who will or won't accept the gospel message and tailor our posts accordingly. a little discernment and wisdom on your part would go a long ways.
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  9. #209
    dberrie2000
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    Quote Originally Posted by hogan60 View Post
    When Christ finished the work of the cross, He was able to forgive the whole human race.
    Hi Hogan:

    I agree--just as the education system is able to educate all men. But to obtain the diploma--one must obey the criteria set by the school.

    To gain the remission of sins--one has to obey the criteria of the Redeemer:

    1 John 1:7---King James Version (KJV)
    7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.


    They’re forgiven.
    Please do show us any scriptures which state all men are forgiven of their sins.

    If that is so--then why does God reject these?

    Galatians 5:19-21---King James Version (KJV)
    19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
    20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
    21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.


    But it does them no good until they appropriate it by faith. God has reconciled the whole world. It’s finished. Christ Himself said that. But, it can’t be done until we believe.
    If it's finished--then why can't it be done until we believe? Are you saying God left something undone? Unfinished?

    Hogan--if the Atonement needed your faith to be complete--it would have failed--for, it took Christ's perfection, plus nothing--and if you added your imperfect faith to it--it would have failed.

  10. #210
    hogan60
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrDavidT View Post
    a word to the wise:

    you have heard the verse-- do not cast pearls before swine--haven't you? those of us who have been here longer than you know who will or won't accept the gospel message and tailor our posts accordingly. a little discernment and wisdom on your part would go a long ways.
    David, I was on here some years back long before you. I left for a while, but I know the lds on here. No, we cannot know who will come to Christ for salvation and who won't. This is where the Holy Spirit comes in and we should be praying for eyes and understanding to be opened. I have seen hard core believers in false religions come to Christ after many years.

    As for discernment and wisdom, where is that when you don't exhibit any love or patience? I have read your posts, David. Your tone is usually angry and condescending. Why is that?

  11. #211
    alanmolstad
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    Quote Originally Posted by hogan60 View Post
    David, I was on here some years back long before you.....
    back in 2011 the forum had some computer issues, and all of the members had to re-sign on...so we all got new names and stuff at that point.
    The screen name I have now is different as we all had to get new names, so i just changed the use of Capitals letters of my name.


    I remember at the time a few guests got a bit upset as they liked to see how many years each other were members here. (typical boys, always comparing)

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    Quote Originally Posted by hogan60 View Post
    David, I was on here some years back long before you. I left for a while, but I know the lds on here. No, we cannot know who will come to Christ for salvation and who won't. This is where the Holy Spirit comes in and we should be praying for eyes and understanding to be opened. I have seen hard core believers in false religions come to Christ after many years.

    As for discernment and wisdom, where is that when you don't exhibit any love or patience? I have read your posts, David. Your tone is usually angry and condescending. Why is that?
    You read those emotions into my posts. I do not put them there.
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    what happened to all the resident mormons? why did they leave dberrie as their sole witness? surely by now they would have uncovered some evidence for their cultic ideology
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  14. #214
    alanmolstad
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrDavidT View Post
    what happened to all the resident mormons? why did they leave dberrie as their sole witness? surely by now they would have uncovered some evidence for their cultic ideology
    it does come in streaks to be sure.

    It does seem odd how sometimes we have a bunch of people from one religion sorta sweep in and take over...only to all disappear?

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    Default He has NO EVIDENCE AT ALL.

    Quote Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
    David--just a note here. There was a restoration prophesied of in the Biblical NT:

    Acts 3:21:King James Version (KJV)
    21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of res***ution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.

    Could you explain for us--if there was nothing lost--then why the need for the Reformation? And--why does the gospel--which is perfect--need to be "reformed"? If it is lost--it can only be restored--not reformed.

    So--could you relate to us what there is in the Biblical NT--which you don't find in the LDS church--as far as salvational doctrines go?


    Where's your evidence that joey smith's junk is 'res***ution' of ANYTHING?

    Where's your proof that he didn't just make it ALL UP HIMSELF?

    What is there in the Bible that the lds religion doesn't have? The Jesus Christ that made EVERYTHING including the angels (satan was one of them). The SAME Jesus Christ that is the ONLY FATHERED SON of God the Father (check Matthew 16:18). ALL you have is the lies that joey smith invented about a god who 'was once a man' and is now 'exalted,' and a supposed 'jesus' that is a 'spirit-brother-of-satan.' Your demonic gods and your false prophet have lied to you.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Christian View Post



    Where's your evidence that joey smith's junk is 'res***ution' of ANYTHING?

    Where's your proof that he didn't just make it ALL UP HIMSELF?

    What is there in the Bible that the lds religion doesn't have? The Jesus Christ that made EVERYTHING including the angels (satan was one of them). The SAME Jesus Christ that is the ONLY FATHERED SON of God the Father (check Matthew 16:18). ALL you have is the lies that joey smith invented about a god who 'was once a man' and is now 'exalted,' and a supposed 'jesus' that is a 'spirit-brother-of-satan.' Your demonic gods and your false prophet have lied to you.
    two good questions
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  17. #217
    dberrie2000
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    Quote Originally Posted by Christian View Post
    Where's your evidence that joey smith's junk is 'res***ution' of ANYTHING?

    Where's your proof that he didn't just make it ALL UP HIMSELF?
    D&C 110

    1 The veil was taken from our minds, and the eyes of our understanding were opened.
    2 We saw the Lord standing upon the breastwork of the pulpit, before us; and under his feet was a paved work of pure gold, in color like amber.
    3 His eyes were as a flame of fire; the hair of his head was white like the pure snow; his countenance shone above the brightness of the sun; and his voice was as the sound of the rushing of great waters, even the voice of Jehovah, saying:
    4 I am the first and the last; I am he who liveth, I am he who was slain; I am your advocate with the Father.
    5 Behold, your sins are forgiven you; you are clean before me; therefore, lift up your heads and rejoice.
    6 Let the hearts of your brethren rejoice, and let the hearts of all my people rejoice, who have, with their might, built this house to my name.
    7 For behold, I have accepted this house, and my name shall be here; and I will manifest myself to my people in mercy in this house.
    8 Yea, I will appear unto my servants, and speak unto them with mine own voice, if my people will keep my commandments, and do not pollute this holy house.
    9 Yea the hearts of thousands and tens of thousands shall greatly rejoice in consequence of the blessings which shall be poured out, and the endowment with which my servants have been endowed in this house.
    10 And the fame of this house shall spread to foreign lands; and this is the beginning of the blessing which shall be poured out upon the heads of my people. Even so. Amen.
    11 After this vision closed, the heavens were again opened unto us; and Moses appeared before us, and committed unto us the keys of the gathering of Israel from the four parts of the earth, and the leading of the ten tribes from the land of the north.
    12 After this, Elias appeared, and committed the dispensation of the gospel of Abraham, saying that in us and our seed all generations after us should be blessed.
    13 After this vision had closed, another great and glorious vision burst upon us; for Elijah the prophet, who was taken to heaven without tasting death, stood before us, and said:
    14 Behold, the time has fully come, which was spoken of by the mouth of Malachi—testifying that he [Elijah] should be sent, before the great and dreadful day of the Lord come—
    15 To turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the children to the fathers, lest the whole earth be smitten with a curse—
    16 Therefore, the keys of this dispensation are committed into your hands; and by this ye may know that the great and dreadful day of the Lord is near, even at the doors.

    What is there in the Bible that the lds religion doesn't have?
    Nothing, as far as salvational doctrines and the Biblical NT go.

    The Jesus Christ that made EVERYTHING including the angels (satan was one of them).The SAME Jesus Christ that is the ONLY FATHERED SON of God the Father (check Matthew 16:18).
    Then why did Jesus claim man and Himself shared the same God and Father?

    John 20:17--King James Version (KJV)
    17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

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    still NOT evidence. you keep posting the same information hoping it will magically change into evidence but it won't work
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  19. #219
    dberrie2000
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrDavidT View Post
    still NOT evidence. you keep posting the same information hoping it will magically change into evidence but it won't work
    Again--taint so!! responses are neither convincing nor compelling.

    If recorded witnesses of heavenly visitations are not evidence--then the Biblical text can't be considered evidence--right?

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    Quote Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
    Again--taint so!! responses are neither convincing nor compelling.

    If recorded witnesses of heavenly visitations are not evidence--then the Biblical text can't be considered evidence--right?
    You need evidence to support their claim that they actually saw what they saw. All you have done is posted a claim not evidence to support the idea that those claims are true/

    For the Bible we have real evidence supporting its words. the mormons have none for their claims
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  21. #221
    dberrie2000
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrDavidT View Post
    You need evidence to support their claim that they actually saw what they saw.
    What is your evidence these did not see what they claimed?

    Testimony of Eight Witnesses

    Be it known unto all nations, kindreds, tongues, and people, unto whom this work shall come: That Joseph Smith, Jun., the translator of this work, has shown unto us the plates of which hath been spoken, which have the appearance of gold; and as many of the leaves as the said Smith has translated we did handle with our hands; and we also saw the engravings thereon, all of which has the appearance of ancient work, and of curious workmanship. And this we bear record with words of soberness, that the said Smith has shown unto us, for we have seen and hefted, and know of a surety that the said Smith has got the plates of which we have spoken. And we give our names unto the world, to witness unto the world that which we have seen. And we lie not, God bearing witness of it.

    Christian Whitmer
    Jacob Whitmer
    Peter Whitmer, Jun.
    John Whitmer
    Hiram Page
    Joseph Smith, Sen.
    Hyrum Smith
    Samuel H. Smith

  22. #222
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    Default Till no real witnesses to the book of mormon texts

    Quote Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
    What is your evidence these did not see what they claimed?

    Testimony of Eight Witnesses

    Be it known unto all nations, kindreds, tongues, and people, unto whom this work shall come: That Joseph Smith, Jun., the translator of this work, has shown unto us the plates of which hath been spoken, which have the appearance of gold; and as many of the leaves as the said Smith has translated we did handle with our hands; and we also saw the engravings thereon, all of which has the appearance of ancient work, and of curious workmanship. And this we bear record with words of soberness, that the said Smith has shown unto us, for we have seen and hefted, and know of a surety that the said Smith has got the plates of which we have spoken. And we give our names unto the world, to witness unto the world that which we have seen. And we lie not, God bearing witness of it.

    Christian Whitmer
    Jacob Whitmer
    Peter Whitmer, Jun.
    John Whitmer
    Hiram Page
    Joseph Smith, Sen.
    Hyrum Smith
    Samuel H. Smith

    NO witnesses to the TEXT (which had to be CORRECTED) of the bom.

    Where is YOUR evidence that they DID see anything. They were the cronies of joey smith and 'in on it' with him.

    NONE of them were 'witnesses' to ANYTHING that was ON any plates. NOBODY 'translated' EVEN ONE WORD except joey smith who supposedly looked at a ROCK IN HIS HAT 'waiting' for a 'translation' to appear.

    Of course that "translation" has had to have over 4,000 CORRECTIONS made to it since the first printing (EASILY observable once you get photocopies of the first printing for yourself to COMPARE TO THE CURRENT VERSION).



  23. #223
    dberrie2000
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    Quote Originally Posted by Christian View Post
    [COLOR=#0000cd]NO witnesses to the TEXT (which had to be CORRECTED) of the bom.
    The Book of Mormon is full of witnesses to the things which were written in the text--just as the Bible is. All translations go through a "correction" process. Most translations are composed of varying texts from one another.

  24. #224
    hogan60
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    Quote Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
    The Book of Mormon is full of witnesses to the things which were written in the text--just as the Bible is. All translations go through a "correction" process. Most translations are composed of varying texts from one another.
    dberrie, The BoM, which Smith claimed to be the most correct book of any on earth, has undergone thousands of revisions. The BoM is a product of its time. Its a 19th century writing. Only the Holy Bible was inspired by the Holy Spirit. All other books were written by men.

    You need to put your faith in Jesus Christ and not in a man.

  25. #225
    dberrie2000
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    Quote Originally Posted by hogan60 View Post
    dberrie, The BoM, which Smith claimed to be the most correct book of any on earth, has undergone thousands of revisions.
    Morning, Hogan:

    Mistakes crept in---http://www.nola.com/religion/index.ssf/2011/03/changes_to_the_bible_through_the_ages_are_being_st udied_by_new_orleans_scholars.html

    The earliest works — some of Paul’s Epistles — date to about the middle of the first century. Like the Gospels that followed, they were written by hand, and successors were copied by hand. Mistakes occasionally crept in.

    Moreover, with Christianity in its infancy and the earliest Christians still trying to clarify the full meaning of Jesus, his mission and his stories, the texts themselves sometimes changed from generation to generation, said Warren.

    As archeologists and historians in later years uncovered more early m****cripts, each one hand-copied from some predecessor, they could see occasional additions or subtractions from a phrase, a verse or a story.

    The changes are called “variants.”

    Most changes are inconsequential, the result of mere copying errors, or the replacement of a less common word for a more common word.

    But others are more important. They meant something.

    For example, the famous tale in John’s Gospel in which Jesus challenges a mob about to stone a woman accused of adultery — “Let any one of you who is without sin be the first to throw a stone at her” — is a variant that copyists began inserting into John at least 300 years after that Gospel first appeared.

    In the conclusion to Mark, the description of Jesus appearing to various disciples after his resurrection does not appear in the earliest m****cripts.

    And in Luke, the crucified Jesus’ plea that his executioners be forgiven “for they know not what they are doing” likewise does not appear in the earliest versions of his Gospel.

    What’s at work here, Warren said, is that even after the 4th century church definitively settled on the books it accepted as divinely inspired accounts of the Christian vision, some of the texts within those books were still subject to slight changes — and some had already seen changes since being first published.

    A true story

    Warren said the story of the adulterous woman in John’s Gospel, for example, seems to be an account of an actual event preserved and treasured by the Christian community.

    “People know it, and they like it,” he said. “It’s about a forgiveness that many times is needed in the church. Can you be forgiven on major sins?”

    John had not included it, but Christians wanted to shoehorn it in somewhere, Warren said.

    Warren said the story wanders across several early John m****cripts, appearing in a variety of places.

    It even shows up in two early copies of Luke.

    “But probably it was never part of John’s Gospel, in the original form,” he said.

    By the 7th century, it had found its current home. It appears today in John 7:53-8:11.

    Another change appears in Mark 9:29, when Jesus tells his disciples some demons can be driven out “only by prayer.”

    Warren said 3rd century m****cripts added “and fasting” — probably as Christians’ own commentary on the power of that spiritual discipline, which was then becoming standard Christian practice.

    In those and other cases, early Christian copiers are probably hoping to clarify a teaching or story for Christian audiences.

    In effect, early copiers were taking what modern readers would recognize as study notes and slipping them into the texts, a process that began to tail off around the 9th century, Warren said.

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