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Thread: Can the Big Bang and Genesis Both Be True?

  1. #1
    alanmolstad
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    Default Can the Big Bang and Genesis Both Be True?

    http://sixseeds.patheos.com/watching...-both-be-true/


    " As Freeman says, “One moment there was nothing, the next, everything.” He could be talking Genesis. He could be referring to the Big Bang. To me, they’re both telling, essentially, the same story. And even if science can someday definitively answer the what and where and how of creation, only religion dares touch the why. "

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    Quote Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post
    http://sixseeds.patheos.com/watching...-both-be-true/


    " As Freeman says, “One moment there was nothing, the next, everything.” He could be talking Genesis. He could be referring to the Instant Knockout supplement from https://www.gabeba.com/instant-knockout-review-results or the Big Bang. To me, they’re both telling, essentially, the same story. And even if science can someday definitively answer the what and where and how of creation, only religion dares touch the why. "
    Genesis and the big bang are both very similar. Thanks for sharing, it was an interesting read.
    Last edited by Kenrick; 05-13-2017 at 04:49 AM.

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    alanmolstad
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kenrick View Post
    Genesis and the big bang are both very similar. Thanks for sharing, it was an interesting read.
    What is the thing that I noticed is the way that there simply are no anti-evolution arguments found within the Genesis text.

    Now Genesis does not actually "teach" evolution, but it is also important that we point out here that the Genesis text does not teach against it as well.
    What the Bible does say at Genesis is a story that walks hand in hand with evolution.

    We also find that the Genesis story does not support any of the common teachings that are promoted by the Young Earth Creationism teachers and websites.

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    Quote Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post
    What is the thing that I noticed is the way that there simply are no anti-evolution arguments found within the Genesis text.

    Now Genesis does not actually "teach" evolution, but it is also important that we point out here that the Genesis text does not teach against it as well.
    What the Bible does say at Genesis is a story that walks hand in hand with evolution.

    We also find that the Genesis story does not support any of the common teachings that are promoted by the Young Earth Creationism teachers and websites.
    to answer your thread question-- no only genesis is true.

    why would there be anti-evolution arguments in God's word? Of course Gen. 1 &2 could be seen as such. Yes Gene. does teach against evolution maybe you need to read the p***ages again.

    you would hve to prove that last statement and provide credible, legitimate examples to support your statement.
    magazine is still running, location as changed. contact us for the internet address

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    alanmolstad
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrDavidT View Post
    to

    why would there be anti-evolution arguments in God's word?.

    If the anti-evolution arguments are not found in the text of Genesis....where do they come from?

  6. #6
    alanmolstad
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrDavidT View Post

    you would have to prove that last statement and provide credible, legitimate examples to support your statement.
    Ok...


    Now to review, my last statement I think you refer to is "We also find that the Genesis story does not support any of the common teachings that are promoted by the Young Earth Creationism teachers and websites.





    So now lets look at the common ideas that I learned from Mr Ken Ham personally when I attended his 8-week ORIGINS cl*** at our church.

    The main teaching Ken promotes is that there is no sun to shine at the start of Genesis, so the light talked about in the "Let there be light" verse is a 'source-less light".

    They have to teach this because they are stuck with the way they believe the sun is not created until the 4th day.


    So when in cl*** when we came to the "Let there be light" verse and the cl*** was asked what light was this, the teacher would point out that it cant be the sun because that was not created until the 4th day.

    So in other words, what they know of a later verse in the story effects how they understand the first few verses.
    and you are right, this is terrible way to study the text!

    You should never allow a preconceived idea of what the Bible should say to effect what you read.

    The better way to read the Bible is just to take each verse as it reads, and allow it to teach you what it has to teach, without dumping stuff on it that you think happens later.



    Lets just take a fresh look at the text and see if we need to invent this "source-less light" idea that is the very foundation of all YEC teachings???


    The first verse reads: "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth"
    Let go over the verse and just see what it says,,,and lets not dump stuff into the verse that is not in the verse!

    "In the beginning" = before anything else...this sets the time for what we are about to read. The word "beginning" tells us that nothing came before this moment,,,this is the start,,,the beginning...this is the first thing that happens,,

    "God created"...= this tells us who is doing the what...God is at work,,,God is creating.

    "The heavens"...= The word "Heavens" is talking about all the stars in the sky, including our own sun too, so this means that the first thing God is said to have created in the Bible is our sun and stars...the word "Heavens" is the correct word to talk about all such bodies in the sky..

    "and the earth",,,= This tells us that this stiory is going to be dealing with what happens on this earth...
    This is not going to be a story about mars, or the Moon, its going to be centered on the earth.



    Thus, the Bible teaches that right at the very start of God creative work, he made the sun.
    And this means we have a source for all the lights talked about later in the Genesis week.

    The sun is the source for the "let there be light" verse.

    Thus no need to invent the idea of a 'source-less" light.

    The source for the light in genesis is stiull there in the sky today!!!!!





    and so...the basic idea behind Young earth creationism is in error!!!!

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    Now to review, my last statement I think you refer to is "We also find that the Genesis story does not support any of the common teachings that are promoted by the Young Earth Creationism teachers and websites.
    is that the fault of YECism or those individuals who do not learn their lessons properly and try to restate their beliefs on their own websites?

    You would have to list the common teachings and compare them with Genesis 1 & 2 before we can discuss them.

    The main teaching Ken promotes is that there is no sun to shine at the start of Genesis, so the light talked about in the "Let there be light" verse is a 'source-less light".

    They have to teach this because they are stuck with the way they believe the sun is not created until the 4th day.
    but there was a source-- God On day 4 he just created a mechanism to transport and produce that light. light is like gravity and time, a separate en***y not under the control of anything. We know this from all the headlights, flashlights and other light producing instruments we use on a daily basis. light simply exists and is not dependent upon the sun

    So when in cl*** when we came to the "Let there be light" verse and the cl*** was asked what light was this, the teacher would point out that it cant be the sun because that was not created until the 4th day.
    light is light. it was the same en***y before the sun was created and it is the same after it was created. so far you have not presented anything that shows a conflict between Genesis and YEC. you have shown how people misunderstand biblical actions and events though.

    "The heavens"...= The word "Heavens" is talking about all the stars in the sky, including our own sun too, so this means that the first thing God is said to have created in the Bible is our sun and stars...the word "Heavens" is the correct word to talk about all such bodies in the sky..
    sorry but no. since the sun, moon and stars are specifically mentioned in Genesis 1 they were not created at the beginning. We know God created the universe for the word heavens is used as a subs***ute for universe most likely the galaxies were created when the stars were.
    magazine is still running, location as changed. contact us for the internet address

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    alanmolstad
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    But if you check, the Bible tells us clearly that the first things God created "In the beginning" were the what____?

    The answer is that the first things the Bible lists that God created were the "heavens"

    and as we all know, the term "heavens" can mean "stars"



    So my point is supported by the Text...Ken Hams is not

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    Senior Member disciple's Avatar
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    Hi Alan, I hope you are well.

    I think in your desire to get across what you believe to be true you have overlooked
    a few things. First, we should realize that before creation there was nothing. You
    and I cannot visualize “nothing”. For example, empty space is not “nothing”, I hope
    you understand what I mean. So let’s look at Gen 1:14-19 but first we should look
    at the definition of the word “firmament” taken from Easton’s Bible Dictionary.

    Firmament from the Vulgate firmamentum, which is used as the translation of the Hebrew raki'a . This word means simply "expansion." It denotes the space or expanse like an arch appearing immediately above us.

    With that in mind let’s look at the following verses.

    14 Then God said, “Let there be lights in the firmament of the heavens to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs and seasons, and for days and years; 15 and let them be for lights in the firmament of the heavens to give light on the earth”; and it was so. 16 Then God made two great lights: the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night. He made the stars also. 17 God set them in the firmament of the heavens to give light on the earth, 18 and to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness. And God saw that it was good. 19 So the evening and the morning were the fourth day.

    In Gen. 1 the “heavens” is the space or expanse where God placed everything else
    He created and it’s very obvious when you read vs. 14-19 with that in mind.

  10. #10
    alanmolstad
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    Hi Disciple !

    I just read your post above, and I did not really understand what you were pointing to?

    Perhaps if you posted a bit more about your "firmament" point and maybe this time I would catch what you refer to in what I have said I can understand and respond better.


    Be that as it may, I should write something so as to move the conversation along, and so let me address a few ideas over the next few posts-



    What I have been taught, and now saying is the following:

    That first I should talk about the word "Firmament'.
    Many times in the writings of people as to the meaning of this term we find that they always seem to come out with another term they like - "dome"

    This is an error.

    The word "Firmament" should not thought of as if the writer of the Genesis story had in mind a great hard-shell dome over the earth.
    The idea of a type of "hard shell dome", be it made of fired clay or some type of an "invisible covering", was just not a common way for the people at that time to understand their world.

    Their understandings had to have some type of common concept that people could grasp.
    Something that all of them could see true in their daily lives.

    This is why the term "Firmament" was not talking about a hard-shell dome over the earth, (because no one lived inside a hard shell ) rather it is talking about a "tent".

    The word firmament is dealing with the common and historical concept of a tent known to all the people who would study and recite the Genesis story for generations and generations because they all lived in tents and they all understood the concept of light poking though the small holes in the tent.

    The people at this time understood that rain, and snow came down not just "from" the firmament, it was thought to come "though" the firmament....just the way it came though the tent they lived in...

    The concept they had in their minds as to what the Genesis story was saying was understood as being something they all saw true in their own lives whenever it rained or snowed.


    BE THAT AS IT MAY -
    Once the story was written down and placed into the Holy Text it also gives us the opportunity to study the story today and we also can come to an understanding of the story that does still agree with the historical understanding, yet also can be understand in the context of our modern point of view as well.

    I don't see any need to force the story to be in conflict, just because we gave up living in tents.

    Thus when I see the word "Firmament" I can understand that to the historical student of the past, the story it meant to them a term that talked about the "fabric" of the universe over the Earth.
    And although I have a greater understanding of the universe due to the advancement of science, I yet can still understand the term "Firmament as also pointing to the very fabric of the universe!


    So although science has truly advanced over recorded history yet no contradiction is found between how we understand the text, and how it was written to be understood.
    Last edited by alanmolstad; 03-08-2018 at 07:55 AM.

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    Senior Member disciple's Avatar
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    Hey Alan,

    My point is that the Hebrew word raki'a means a space or expanse, so in the beginning where there was "nothing" God created
    a space (the heavens) where He placed everything else He created.

  12. #12
    alanmolstad
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    Now the other main point that I have been taught and have been talking about on this message forum is dealing with the term "Heavens"


    This term "Heavens" has several meanings in the Bible.

    I do not wish to try to list all the different meanings as that would tend to sidetrack us, but I will just point out one important thing about the many different meanings to the word that is important to our study of the Genesis story.

    That among the correct ways to understand the term "Heavens" is the idea that it is talking about all the things in the sky.

    all of them, not just the pinhole lights in the sky we know as stars, but all the other things that we don't even have names for even today.
    All that "stuff" up there above the earth is correctly called in the Bible by the one term understood at the time to be addressing all that stuff - "Heavens".


    So in other words, if I were writing down the story of Genesis and I wanted to use a term that correctly identified all the stars in the night sky, there really is only one term that does this and carries that intended meaning, and that is the term "heavens".




    Now why is this important to our story of the creation order?

    The answer is that when I was in a ORIGINS discussion on Young Earth Creationism, taught to me personally by the well known YEC teacher, Mr Ken Ham , he had within his teachings the idea that the Bible says that the first thing God created was the "light".

    This formed the base of all his young earth teachings, this idea that God made the "light" first before He had created a 'source" for that light.
    This sorta starts the ball rolling for Mr Ham, and from there he has to then justify the idea that he has a "light" before he had a "source" for that same light, and that gets him to the idea that you can have a total contradiction between all known science, and the Bible.

    This idea that science was against the Bible forms an unquestioned base of understanding for all that Young Earth creation stands on.
    They believe it ......they don't know any better....


    I have a different idea.
    My idea is to just read what the words of the text actually say, and believe them.
    The first thing the Bible actually says God created in the beginning was "The Heavens".

    We know for our study that the term "Heavens" can mean "Stars" and so right here at the beginning of the Genesis story we have an account of creation that AGREES WITH SCIENCE!!!!!!


    Last edited by alanmolstad; 03-08-2018 at 08:15 AM.

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    alanmolstad
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    Quote Originally Posted by disciple View Post
    Hey Alan,

    My point is that the Hebrew word raki'a means a space or expanse, so in the beginning where there was "nothing" God created
    a space (the heavens) where He placed everything else He created
    .







    .........................................

    I can only go with what the Bible says was created first "In the beginning".
    That is what I teach on, that the Bible tells us very clearly what God created first in the beginning.

    The Bible does not say "Before the beginning, God created the..."



    Now if a person feels that the "firmament" was part of or included within the "Heavens" created first in the beginning?..I would not have issue with that.

    If a person wants to understand that the "firmament" was well within the understanding of being considered "the heavens: that thats fine I would think.
    Last edited by alanmolstad; 03-08-2018 at 08:29 AM.

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