Why hasn't the angel moroni returned

[DrDavidT]

Originally Posted by Erundur

Then I accept your concession.

What concession? You mormons are living in a dream world if you think a concession was made.

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by DrDavidT

What concession? You mormons are living in a dream world if you think a concession was made.

We are still looking for an answer to what your point is in this thread.

Meanwhile:

D&C 110

1 The veil was taken from our minds, and the eyes of our understanding were opened.
2 We saw the Lord standing upon the breastwork of the pulpit, before us; and under his feet was a paved work of pure gold, in color like amber.
3 His eyes were as a flame of fire; the hair of his head was white like the pure snow; his countenance shone above the brightness of the sun; and his voice was as the sound of the rushing of great waters, even the voice of Jehovah, saying:
4 I am the first and the last; I am he who liveth, I am he who was slain; I am your advocate with the Father.
5 Behold, your sins are forgiven you; you are clean before me; therefore, lift up your heads and rejoice.
6 Let the hearts of your brethren rejoice, and let the hearts of all my people rejoice, who have, with their might, built this house to my name.
7 For behold, I have accepted this house, and my name shall be here; and I will manifest myself to my people in mercy in this house.
8 Yea, I will appear unto my servants, and speak unto them with mine own voice, if my people will keep my commandments, and do not pollute this holy house.
9 Yea the hearts of thousands and tens of thousands shall greatly rejoice in consequence of the blessings which shall be poured out, and the endowment with which my servants have been endowed in this house.
10 And the fame of this house shall spread to foreign lands; and this is the beginning of the blessing which shall be poured out upon the heads of my people. Even so. Amen.
11 After this vision closed, the heavens were again opened unto us; and Moses appeared before us, and committed unto us the keys of the gathering of Israel from the four parts of the earth, and the leading of the ten tribes from the land of the north.
12 After this, Elias appeared, and committed the dispensation of the gospel of Abraham, saying that in us and our seed all generations after us should be blessed.
13 After this vision had closed, another great and glorious vision burst upon us; for Elijah the prophet, who was taken to heaven without tasting death, stood before us, and said:
14 Behold, the time has fully come, which was spoken of by the mouth of Malachi—testifying that he [Elijah] should be sent, before the great and dreadful day of the Lord come—
15 To turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the children to the fathers, lest the whole earth be smitten with a curse—
16 Therefore, the keys of this dispensation are committed into your hands; and by this ye may know that the great and dreadful day of the Lord is near, even at the doors.

[MickeyS]

Originally Posted by DrDavidT

Prove Moroni exists and visited Smith. All we have is his word for the visitation, no one else saw him or heard him so the onus is on you to prove the events actually took place and that Moroni exists

Prove God visited Moses on Mt Sinai. After all, all you have is his account of it. So, with only one firsthand account, we need to discard Moses's visitation on Mt Sinai. And I'm sure there were many who ridiculed him just as you are doing. This whole "prove he visited Joseph Smith" like a petulant child is ridiculous.

What do you tell a hardcore atheist when they demand absolute proof God exists? Do you think God would ever allow a non-believer to have absolute proof of His existence? That would nullify faith.

I have your answer dberrie, there is no point to this thread....just like every other one. I see its all just the same immature time wasting baby games. "Dr" must be an honorary ***le.

How pathetic

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by MickeyS

Prove God visited Moses on Mt Sinai. After all, all you have is his account of it. So, with only one firsthand account, we need to discard Moses's visitation on Mt Sinai. And I'm sure there were many who ridiculed him just as you are doing. This whole "prove he visited Joseph Smith" like a petulant child is ridiculous.

What do you tell a hardcore atheist when they demand absolute proof God exists? Do you think God would ever allow a non-believer to have absolute proof of His existence? That would nullify faith.

I have your answer dberrie, there is no point to this thread....just like every other one. I see its all just the same immature time wasting baby games. "Dr" must be an honorary ***le.

How pathetic

Hi Mickey.

Good post. I agree with you--his approaches seem short of the skills which one with a doctorate degree should display.

[DrDavidT]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

Hi Mickey.

Good post. I agree with you--his approaches seem short of the skills which one with a doctorate degree should display.

Ahh yes, the two post insult. My approach is to the point one which you cannot answer. We do not have to prove God and Moses were on Sinai, we have evidenc e of God's existence throughout history.

We have NO evidence other than Smith's word, which is not or was not credible, of Moroni. He is not attested to in any ancient document no in any extra mormon literature Nothing at all. we can point to ancient groups like the pharisees, the sadduccees, the essenes, non-jewish writers who all talk about God and Jesus but there is NO group outside of the Mormons who talk about Moroni.

Again your arguments fall flat.

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View PostHi Mickey.

Good post. I agree with you--his approaches seem short of the skills which one with a doctorate degree should display.

Originally Posted by DrDavidT

Ahh yes, the two post insult. My approach is to the point one which you cannot answer. We do not have to prove God and Moses were on Sinai, we have evidenc e of God's existence throughout history.

That's all well and fine, David. My postulation stands--the language and approach used here just seems short of something one with a doctorate would use.

Perhaps you would like to tell us something about yourself?

[DrDavidT]

Again the mormons can't refute or discuss so they derail the discussion.

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by DrDavidT

Again the mormons can't refute or discuss so they derail the discussion.

I can't find a discussion in that accusation.

Meanwhile:

D&C 110

1 The veil was taken from our minds, and the eyes of our understanding were opened.
2 We saw the Lord standing upon the breastwork of the pulpit, before us; and under his feet was a paved work of pure gold, in color like amber.
3 His eyes were as a flame of fire; the hair of his head was white like the pure snow; his countenance shone above the brightness of the sun; and his voice was as the sound of the rushing of great waters, even the voice of Jehovah, saying:
4 I am the first and the last; I am he who liveth, I am he who was slain; I am your advocate with the Father.
5 Behold, your sins are forgiven you; you are clean before me; therefore, lift up your heads and rejoice.
6 Let the hearts of your brethren rejoice, and let the hearts of all my people rejoice, who have, with their might, built this house to my name.
7 For behold, I have accepted this house, and my name shall be here; and I will manifest myself to my people in mercy in this house.
8 Yea, I will appear unto my servants, and speak unto them with mine own voice, if my people will keep my commandments, and do not pollute this holy house.
9 Yea the hearts of thousands and tens of thousands shall greatly rejoice in consequence of the blessings which shall be poured out, and the endowment with which my servants have been endowed in this house.
10 And the fame of this house shall spread to foreign lands; and this is the beginning of the blessing which shall be poured out upon the heads of my people. Even so. Amen.
11 After this vision closed, the heavens were again opened unto us; and Moses appeared before us, and committed unto us the keys of the gathering of Israel from the four parts of the earth, and the leading of the ten tribes from the land of the north.
12 After this, Elias appeared, and committed the dispensation of the gospel of Abraham, saying that in us and our seed all generations after us should be blessed.
13 After this vision had closed, another great and glorious vision burst upon us; for Elijah the prophet, who was taken to heaven without tasting death, stood before us, and said:
14 Behold, the time has fully come, which was spoken of by the mouth of Malachi—testifying that he [Elijah] should be sent, before the great and dreadful day of the Lord come—
15 To turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the children to the fathers, lest the whole earth be smitten with a curse—
16 Therefore, the keys of this dispensation are committed into your hands; and by this ye may know that the great and dreadful day of the Lord is near, even at the doors.

[DrDavidT]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

I can't find a discussion in that accusation.

Meanwhile:

D&C 110

1 The veil was taken from our minds, and the eyes of our understanding were opened.
2 We saw the Lord standing upon the breastwork of the pulpit, before us; and under his feet was a paved work of pure gold, in color like amber.
3 His eyes were as a flame of fire; the hair of his head was white like the pure snow; his countenance shone above the brightness of the sun; and his voice was as the sound of the rushing of great waters, even the voice of Jehovah, saying:
4 I am the first and the last; I am he who liveth, I am he who was slain; I am your advocate with the Father.
5 Behold, your sins are forgiven you; you are clean before me; therefore, lift up your heads and rejoice.
6 Let the hearts of your brethren rejoice, and let the hearts of all my people rejoice, who have, with their might, built this house to my name.
7 For behold, I have accepted this house, and my name shall be here; and I will manifest myself to my people in mercy in this house.
8 Yea, I will appear unto my servants, and speak unto them with mine own voice, if my people will keep my commandments, and do not pollute this holy house.
9 Yea the hearts of thousands and tens of thousands shall greatly rejoice in consequence of the blessings which shall be poured out, and the endowment with which my servants have been endowed in this house.
10 And the fame of this house shall spread to foreign lands; and this is the beginning of the blessing which shall be poured out upon the heads of my people. Even so. Amen.
11 After this vision closed, the heavens were again opened unto us; and Moses appeared before us, and committed unto us the keys of the gathering of Israel from the four parts of the earth, and the leading of the ten tribes from the land of the north.
12 After this, Elias appeared, and committed the dispensation of the gospel of Abraham, saying that in us and our seed all generations after us should be blessed.
13 After this vision had closed, another great and glorious vision burst upon us; for Elijah the prophet, who was taken to heaven without tasting death, stood before us, and said:
14 Behold, the time has fully come, which was spoken of by the mouth of Malachi—testifying that he [Elijah] should be sent, before the great and dreadful day of the Lord come—
15 To turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the children to the fathers, lest the whole earth be smitten with a curse—
16 Therefore, the keys of this dispensation are committed into your hands; and by this ye may know that the great and dreadful day of the Lord is near, even at the doors.

Should I mention that Smith said he saw Go the father in one of his encounters with the supernatural. He makes this claim even though God said in the Bible to his friend Moses that no man may see him or they would die. HMMM...

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by DrDavidT

Should I mention that Smith said he saw Go the father in one of his encounters with the supernatural. He makes this claim even though God said in the Bible to his friend Moses that no man may see him or they would die. HMMM...

Then why didn't they die?


Exodus 24:9-10---King James Version (KJV)
9 Then went up Moses, and Aaron, Nadab, and Abihu, and seventy of the elders of Israel:
10 And they saw the God of Israel: and there was under his feet as it were a paved work of a sapphire stone, and as it were the body of heaven in his clearness.

[Christian]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

Then why didn't they die?


Exodus 24:9-10---King James Version (KJV)
9 Then went up Moses, and Aaron, Nadab, and Abihu, and seventy of the elders of Israel:
10 And they saw the God of Israel: and there was under his feet as it were a paved work of a sapphire stone, and as it were the body of heaven in his clearness.

Are you trying to claim GOD LIED? That Jesus LIED when He said No man had seen God at any time?

Or IF YOU THINK, do you NOT understand that there is a BETTER EXPLANATION?

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by Christian

Are you trying to claim GOD LIED? That Jesus LIED when He said No man had seen God at any time?

Or IF YOU THINK, do you NOT understand that there is a BETTER EXPLANATION?

What part of the scriptures are you claiming is a lie?

Exodus 24:9-10---King James Version (KJV)
9 Then went up Moses, and Aaron, Nadab, and Abihu, and seventy of the elders of Israel:
10 And they saw the God of Israel: and there was under his feet as it were a paved work of a sapphire stone, and as it were the body of heaven in his clearness.

What "better explanation" are you offering?

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by Christian

Are you trying to claim GOD LIED? That Jesus LIED when He said No man had seen God at any time?

Or IF YOU THINK, do you NOT understand that there is a BETTER EXPLANATION?

The answer -

https://answersingenesis.org/who-is-god/face-to-face/

"Hence, there is no contradiction, as God can speak face to face with men, but not while in all His glory; otherwise, sinful man would die."

So it seems that in the Old Test, that whenever we have something that is said to be about "seeing God", it's actually the Son that is making God known to us.

We are told that none can see God and live, and so this means that we cant see God in his "fullness' , but the Son does make God known to us and that fact allowed men to see God face to face, yet without violating the verse that says none can see the face of God and live.

[alanmolstad]

So my above post is how we in the Christian church can believe that men in the past like Moses are said to have seen God 'face to face' yet we also believe at the same time that "No man can see God's face and live"

At first glance this does appear to be a contradiction, but what we have to remember to do is just what guys like Dr Walter Martin used to always say to do at the start of any Bible study or conversation with the world of the CULTS about what the bible teaches, and that is to define your terms!


Once everyone understands what the terms mean and how they are used in their context, we dont see any contradiction on this issue.

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

The answer -

https://answersingenesis.org/who-is-god/face-to-face/

"Hence, there is no contradiction, as God can speak face to face with men, but not while in all His glory; otherwise, sinful man would die."

So it seems that in the Old Test, that whenever we have something that is said to be about "seeing God", it's actually the Son that is making God known to us.

IOW--Jesus Christ isn't God--He just makes God known? How many Gods do you believe in?

Originally Posted by Christian View Post That Jesus LIED when He said No man had seen God at any time?

[alanmolstad]

Jesus is said to be the "image" of the "invisible"God.

In other words, Jesus is the way we know anything about God.
But Jesus is not the father, nor the spirit.

Thus he is all we will ever know of what god is.
nothing that we know about God is apart from what has been shown us about God via the son.

No man can see God in his fullness, yet we can see god face to face because we are shown God in the Son.

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

Jesus is said to be the "image" of the "invisible"God.

In other words, Jesus is the way we know anything about God.
But Jesus is not the father, nor the spirit.

But Christian's post did not specifically mention the Father or the Spirit--but "God":

Originally Posted by Christian View Post That Jesus LIED when He said No man had seen God at any time?

Again:

Exodus 24:9-10---King James Version (KJV)
9 Then went up Moses, and Aaron, Nadab, and Abihu, and seventy of the elders of Israel:
10 And they saw the God of Israel: and there was under his feet as it were a paved work of a sapphire stone, and as it were the body of heaven in his clearness.

[alanmolstad]

see my answer above....

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

see my answer above....

See my answer below:

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

But Christian's post did not specifically mention the Father or the Spirit--but "God":

Again:

Originally Posted by Christian View Post That Jesus LIED when He said No man had seen God at any time?

Exodus 24:9-10---King James Version (KJV)
9 Then went up Moses, and Aaron, Nadab, and Abihu, and seventy of the elders of Israel:
10 And they saw the God of Israel: and there was under his feet as it were a paved work of a sapphire stone, and as it were the body of heaven in his clearness.

[Berean]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

See my answer below:

See my answer here:

Moses requests to see God’s glory, and God replies, “I will cause all my goodness to p*** in front of you, and I will proclaim my name, the Lord, in your presence. . . . But . . . you cannot see my face, for no one may see me and live” (Exodus 33:19–20). To protect Moses, God put him “in a cleft in the rock” and covered him with His hand as He p***ed by (verse 22). “Then,” God promised, “I will remove my hand and you will see my back; but my face must not be seen” (verse 23).

We know from Scripture (e.g., John 4:24) that God is spirit. Spirits do not possess physicality. So, when Moses spoke “face to face” with God in Exodus 33:11, there are only two possible ways to understand it: either Moses was speaking to the pre-incarnate Son of God (a Christophany); or the p***age is using a figure of speech called anthropomorphism, in which human qualities are applied to God. While a Christophany is certainly possible, it is probably better to view the chapter as using figures of speech. The terms face, hand, and back in Exodus 33 should not be taken literally, and face to face, being idiomatic, is also metaphorical.

In verse 11 the idiom face to face can be simply understood to mean “intimately.” Moses spoke with God familiarly, as a man speaks to a friend. In verses 20 and 23, face and back are in reference to God’s “glory” and “goodness” (verses 18–19). Since God is spirit, and since glory and goodness are both intangibles, we can take face and back to signify varying “degrees” of glory. God’s hand (verse 22) is an obvious reference to God’s “protection.” paraphrased from gotquestions

[Apologette]

Originally Posted by DrDavidT

to verify any of Smith's claims?

Why has he left the mormons on their own and not provided any verification for Smith's claims?

Why does he leave people to blindly accept a known con man's word that he appeared to him?

His absence speaks volumes.

Then before the Mormons get on here and claim that God of the bible does not send angels to his people, I should forewarn them that he does and many missionaries have experienced their protection. I remember one true story where the natives were going to attack a missionary and his family. The missionaries waited all night to be killed, yet the natives did not attack.

Only later did the chief explain why they did not attack. He asked who were those men in white sitting on the missionaries' roof?

So if moroni was real...

Pretty obvious answer to that query - There never was an angel named Moroni - it's all Baloney! I'm a poet and don't know it.

[DrDavidT]

again no real explanation for why this angel does not reappear to encourage the faithful, dispel doubt and so on.since moroni is not of God of the Bible he isnot constrained by the rules of God and can thus come to earth as many times as he feels like it. clearly the mormon god and this angel have no love for their followers.

[DrDavidT]

why do mormons not ask their god to send moroni to earth again?

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post But Christian's post did not specifically mention the Father or the Spirit--but "God":

Again:

Originally Posted by Christian View Post That Jesus LIED when He said No man had seen God at any time?

Exodus 24:9-10---King James Version (KJV)
9 Then went up Moses, and Aaron, Nadab, and Abihu, and seventy of the elders of Israel:
10 And they saw the God of Israel: and there was under his feet as it were a paved work of a sapphire stone, and as it were the body of heaven in his clearness.

Originally Posted by Berean

See my answer here:

Moses requests to see God’s glory, and God replies, “I will cause all my goodness to p*** in front of you, and I will proclaim my name, the Lord, in your presence. . . . But . . . you cannot see my face, for no one may see me and live” (Exodus 33:19–20). To protect Moses, God put him “in a cleft in the rock” and covered him with His hand as He p***ed by (verse 22). “Then,” God promised, “I will remove my hand and you will see my back; but my face must not be seen” (verse 23).

We know from Scripture (e.g., John 4:24) that God is spirit. Spirits do not possess physicality. So, when Moses spoke “face to face” with God in Exodus 33:11, there are only two possible ways to understand it: either Moses was speaking to the pre-incarnate Son of God (a Christophany); or the p***age is using a figure of speech called anthropomorphism, in which human qualities are applied to God. While a Christophany is certainly possible, it is probably better to view the chapter as using figures of speech. The terms face, hand, and back in Exodus 33 should not be taken literally, and face to face, being idiomatic, is also metaphorical.

In verse 11 the idiom face to face can be simply understood to mean “intimately.” Moses spoke with God familiarly, as a man speaks to a friend. In verses 20 and 23, face and back are in reference to God’s “glory” and “goodness” (verses 18–19). Since God is spirit, and since glory and goodness are both intangibles, we can take face and back to signify varying “degrees” of glory. God’s hand (verse 22) is an obvious reference to God’s “protection.” paraphrased from gotquestions

The scriptures state those of the OT saw the God of Israel:

Exodus 24:9-10---King James Version (KJV)
9 Then went up Moses, and Aaron, Nadab, and Abihu, and seventy of the elders of Israel:
10 And they saw the God of Israel: and there was under his feet as it were a paved work of a sapphire stone, and as it were the body of heaven in his clearness.