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Thread: Romans 4

  1. #1
    dberrie2000
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    Default Romans 4

    Romans 4:1-10King James Version (KJV)
    1 What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?
    2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.
    3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
    4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
    5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
    6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,
    7 Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.
    8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.
    9 Cometh this blessedness then upon the circumcision only, or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness.
    10 How was it then reckoned? when he was in circumcision, or in uncircumcision? Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision.

    There have been a number of those here who post Romans 4 to show works are not included in obtaining salvation.

    Romans4 was written by Paul to demonstrate to those under the Mosaic Law--who ran to claim "father Abraham" as their proof of their elect status--that Abraham lived 400 years prior to the Mosaic Law--and that Abraham lived under the gospel of Christ--not the Mosaic Law.

    So--"1 What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?"

    Answer--the gospel of Christ.

    Abraham was not justified by the works of the law(Mosaic Law)--but by obedience to the gospel:

    Genesis 26:4-5---King James Version (KJV)
    4 And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed;
    5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

    It has been concluded now, by scholars--that Paul was not referring to the works of the gospel when he penned "works, works of the law"--but certain rituals found in the Mosaic Law--such as circumcision:


    New Perspective on Paul---From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    The new perspective on Paul represents a significant shift in the way some scholars, especially Protestant scholars, interpret the writings of the Apostle Paul.

    Paul, especially in his Epistle to the Romans, advocates justification through faith in Jesus Christ over justification through works of the Law. In the historic Lutheran and Reformed perspective, known as sola fide, theologians understood Paul as arguing that Christians' good works would not factor into their salvation - only their faith would count. But according to the "new" perspective, Paul was questioning only observances such as circumcision, dietary laws, and Sabbath laws (these were the 'boundary markers[1] that set the Jews apart from the other nations), not good works in general.

    This conclusion was forced by the fact there were some who would pit Paul's testimony against Christ's--rendering the Biblical text an unreliable source of truth. They knew they had to come to another solution to harmonize the Bible--or dismiss it altogether.

    And the problem went even further--Paul pitting his testimony against his own self:

    Romans 2:5-11---King James Version (KJV)
    5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
    6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
    7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
    8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
    9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
    10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
    11 For there is no respect of persons with God.


    IOW--just two chapters previous to Romans 4--Paul was testifying that all would be judged according to their works--and connecting "patient continuance in well doing"--with "eternal life"--and then testifying works had nothing to do with salvation? That dog just ain't gonna hunt. And the scholars are well aware of that--and so--"The New Perspective on Paul".

    Besides--Paul was a master of the scriptures--he would have been hammered if he attempted to take the path that works were not related to Abraham's promises:

    Genesis 26:4-5---King James Version (KJV)
    4 And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed;
    5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

    Again--Paul's point in Romans4?

    That Abraham did not live under the works of the law--but under the gospel of Christ--the very gospel was attempting to take to those under the Mosaic Law.

  2. #2
    Berean
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    Nonsense.

    The “New Perspective on Paul” teaching is a clear denial of the Biblical doctrine of justification by faith alone, which is a non-negotiable Christian doctrine. And of course that's why you seek to deny it. Literally every Mormon doctrine falsely usurps or denies every teaching of Jesus Christ and every tenet of the Christian Faith. If Satan wanted to start a church to thwart and deceive Christians, usurp the Gospel to draw Christians away from the truth, what would he have to do differently in the Mormon Church? Nothing!

    These heretics claim that when Paul wrote about justification, he was speaking of how one could tell if a person was “a member of the covenant family" by his standing in the community. They claim Paul was NOT speaking of personal and individual justification on the basis of his faith in Christ alone.

    However, Paul clearly and solidly condemned a works-based system of righteousness throughout his teachings, and warned that anyone who preached a gospel other than the one he preached should be “eternally condemned” (Galatians 1:8–9).

    Next.

  3. #3
    dberrie2000
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    Quote Originally Posted by Berean View Post
    The “New Perspective on Paul” teaching is a clear denial of the Biblical doctrine of justification by faith alone,
    Not to worry--the New Perspective isn't the only source which questions faith alone theology:

    James 2:24---New American Standard Bible (NASB)
    24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.

    Could anyone please give us another Biblical verse which contains the term "faith alone" within the entire Biblical text--in any translation they would trust?

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