Golden Plates- An interesting point

[DrDavidT]

In one of the websites I linked to in another thread I came across this interesting tidbit

Concluding his presentation, Moroni warned Joseph that when the time came to obtain the plates, if he showed them to anyone not approved of the Lord, he would be destroyed.

https://www.lds.org/ensign/1992/01/m...tutor?lang=eng

How convenient of Smith to say that as now no one can verify one thing he said or translated even though he is dead now the plates do not reappear and no one in the Mormon cult is approved of God for they have not seen the plates at anytime throughout Mormon history or even in the modern age. What does that say about their prophets? Their council of elders and other governing bodies?

The people occupying those offices are not approved of by their god.

[DrDavidT]

I find it funny that the resident Mormons refuse to discuss this point. It comes from their own websites but the point isn't just at Mormon leadership, even the resident Mormons are not approved by their god because they have not seen the golden plates either.

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by DrDavidT

In one of the websites I linked to in another thread I came across this interesting tidbit

https://www.lds.org/ensign/1992/01/m...tutor?lang=eng

How convenient of Smith to say that as now no one can verify one thing he said or translated even though he is dead now the plates do not reappear and no one in the Mormon cult is approved of God for they have not seen the plates at anytime throughout Mormon history or even in the modern age.

Those with doctorate degrees usually make more convincing and careful arguments:

Testimony of Three Witnesses

Be it known unto all nations, kindreds, tongues, and people, unto whom this work shall come: That we, through the grace of God the Father, and our Lord Jesus Christ, have seen the plates which contain this record, which is a record of the people of Nephi, and also of the Lamanites, their brethren, and also of the people of Jared, who came from the tower of which hath been spoken. And we also know that they have been translated by the gift and power of God, for his voice hath declared it unto us; wherefore we know of a surety that the work is true. And we also testify that we have seen the engravings which are upon the plates; and they have been shown unto us by the power of God, and not of man. And we declare with words of soberness, that an angel of God came down from heaven, and he brought and laid before our eyes, that we beheld and saw the plates, and the engravings thereon; and we know that it is by the grace of God the Father, and our Lord Jesus Christ, that we beheld and bear record that these things are true. And it is marvelous in our eyes. Nevertheless, the voice of the Lord commanded us that we should bear record of it; wherefore, to be obedient unto the commandments of God, we bear testimony of these things. And we know that if we are faithful in Christ, we shall rid our garments of the blood of all men, and be found spotless before the judgment-seat of Christ, and shall dwell with him eternally in the heavens. And the honor be to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Ghost, which is one God. Amen.

Oliver Cowdery
David Whitmer
Martin Harris


Testimony of Eight Witnesses

Be it known unto all nations, kindreds, tongues, and people, unto whom this work shall come: That Joseph Smith, Jun., the translator of this work, has shown unto us the plates of which hath been spoken, which have the appearance of gold; and as many of the leaves as the said Smith has translated we did handle with our hands; and we also saw the engravings thereon, all of which has the appearance of ancient work, and of curious workmanship. And this we bear record with words of soberness, that the said Smith has shown unto us, for we have seen and hefted, and know of a surety that the said Smith has got the plates of which we have spoken. And we give our names unto the world, to witness unto the world that which we have seen. And we lie not, God bearing witness of it.

Christian Whitmer
Jacob Whitmer
Peter Whitmer, Jun.
John Whitmer
Hiram Page
Joseph Smith, Sen.
Hyrum Smith
Samuel H. Smith

[DrDavidT]

All that proves is that a conspiracy took place or that they were extorted to say those things or blackmailed. I do not see a non-Mormon on those lists so their testimony is suspect and worthless until extra-Mormon confirmation can support their views.

Everyone, no matter what they believe can see the bible and its ancient mss. no one can see the golden plates or any ancient ms. of this supposed true religion.

Also, your 'testimonies' prove that Brigham Young and subsequent leaders and members of the Mormon Church were and are not acceptable to your god so all you did was prove my point.

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

Those with doctorate degrees usually make more convincing and careful arguments:

Testimony of Three Witnesses

Be it known unto all nations, kindreds, tongues, and people, unto whom this work shall come: That we, through the grace of God the Father, and our Lord Jesus Christ, have seen the plates which contain this record, which is a record of the people of Nephi, and also of the Lamanites, their brethren, and also of the people of Jared, who came from the tower of which hath been spoken. And we also know that they have been translated by the gift and power of God, for his voice hath declared it unto us; wherefore we know of a surety that the work is true. And we also testify that we have seen the engravings which are upon the plates; and they have been shown unto us by the power of God, and not of man. And we declare with words of soberness, that an angel of God came down from heaven, and he brought and laid before our eyes, that we beheld and saw the plates, and the engravings thereon; and we know that it is by the grace of God the Father, and our Lord Jesus Christ, that we beheld and bear record that these things are true. And it is marvelous in our eyes. Nevertheless, the voice of the Lord commanded us that we should bear record of it; wherefore, to be obedient unto the commandments of God, we bear testimony of these things. And we know that if we are faithful in Christ, we shall rid our garments of the blood of all men, and be found spotless before the judgment-seat of Christ, and shall dwell with him eternally in the heavens. And the honor be to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Ghost, which is one God. Amen.

Oliver Cowdery
David Whitmer
Martin Harris


Testimony of Eight Witnesses

Be it known unto all nations, kindreds, tongues, and people, unto whom this work shall come: That Joseph Smith, Jun., the translator of this work, has shown unto us the plates of which hath been spoken, which have the appearance of gold; and as many of the leaves as the said Smith has translated we did handle with our hands; and we also saw the engravings thereon, all of which has the appearance of ancient work, and of curious workmanship. And this we bear record with words of soberness, that the said Smith has shown unto us, for we have seen and hefted, and know of a surety that the said Smith has got the plates of which we have spoken. And we give our names unto the world, to witness unto the world that which we have seen. And we lie not, God bearing witness of it.

Christian Whitmer
Jacob Whitmer
Peter Whitmer, Jun.
John Whitmer
Hiram Page
Joseph Smith, Sen.
Hyrum Smith
Samuel H. Smith

Originally Posted by DrDavidT

All that proves is that a conspiracy took place or that they were extorted to say those things or blackmailed.

That's likened unto the Jews claiming the apostles stole the body of Jesus out of the empty tomb.

That accusation fit their own designs--but it does not explain the resurrected Jesus.

Your straw man may fit your designs--but it does not explain the presence of the Book of Mormon.

[DrDavidT]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

That's likened unto the Jews claiming the apostles stole the body of Jesus out of the empty tomb.

That accusation fit their own designs--but it does not explain the resurrected Jesus.

Your straw man may fit your designs--but it does not explain the presence of the Book of Mormon.

Uhm...no. Not even close.

Jesus was seen by over 500 people not just the disciples, could have even been more. You obviously do not know what a strawman argument is. You have Mormons and Smith relatives claiming to have seen something no one else has seen or was allowed to see. Jesus was seen and the original mss. were used by normal people outside of the circle of 12.

But YOUR point still doesn't address the topic-- you are not approved by your god. you have not been shown the golden plates, how does that, make you feel about your god?

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post That's likened unto the Jews claiming the apostles stole the body of Jesus out of the empty tomb.

That accusation fit their own designs--but it does not explain the resurrected Jesus.

Your straw man may fit your designs--but it does not explain the presence of the Book of Mormon.

Originally Posted by DrDavidT

Uhm...no. Not even close.

Jesus was seen by over 500 people not just the disciples, could have even been more.

And just how does that somehow cover up or cancel out the fact the LDS have had numerous heavenly manifestations, and a written testimony as scripture--with witnesses--and the Book of Mormon?

That seems to be the mold God always follows--revelations about God or His economy never before expounded upon in general, with a written record.

God followed that same pattern with Moses, the NT apostles--and the Restoration--which was prophesied of:


Acts 3:21---King James Version (KJV)
21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of res***ution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.

Testimony of Three Witnesses

Be it known unto all nations, kindreds, tongues, and people, unto whom this work shall come: That we, through the grace of God the Father, and our Lord Jesus Christ, have seen the plates which contain this record, which is a record of the people of Nephi, and also of the Lamanites, their brethren, and also of the people of Jared, who came from the tower of which hath been spoken. And we also know that they have been translated by the gift and power of God, for his voice hath declared it unto us; wherefore we know of a surety that the work is true. And we also testify that we have seen the engravings which are upon the plates; and they have been shown unto us by the power of God, and not of man. And we declare with words of soberness, that an angel of God came down from heaven, and he brought and laid before our eyes, that we beheld and saw the plates, and the engravings thereon; and we know that it is by the grace of God the Father, and our Lord Jesus Christ, that we beheld and bear record that these things are true. And it is marvelous in our eyes. Nevertheless, the voice of the Lord commanded us that we should bear record of it; wherefore, to be obedient unto the commandments of God, we bear testimony of these things. And we know that if we are faithful in Christ, we shall rid our garments of the blood of all men, and be found spotless before the judgment-seat of Christ, and shall dwell with him eternally in the heavens. And the honor be to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Ghost, which is one God. Amen.

Oliver Cowdery
David Whitmer
Martin Harris


Testimony of Eight Witnesses

Be it known unto all nations, kindreds, tongues, and people, unto whom this work shall come: That Joseph Smith, Jun., the translator of this work, has shown unto us the plates of which hath been spoken, which have the appearance of gold; and as many of the leaves as the said Smith has translated we did handle with our hands; and we also saw the engravings thereon, all of which has the appearance of ancient work, and of curious workmanship. And this we bear record with words of soberness, that the said Smith has shown unto us, for we have seen and hefted, and know of a surety that the said Smith has got the plates of which we have spoken. And we give our names unto the world, to witness unto the world that which we have seen. And we lie not, God bearing witness of it.

Christian Whitmer
Jacob Whitmer
Peter Whitmer, Jun.
John Whitmer
Hiram Page
Joseph Smith, Sen.
Hyrum Smith
Samuel H. Smith

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post That's likened unto the Jews claiming the apostles stole the body of Jesus out of the empty tomb.

That accusation fit their own designs--but it does not explain the resurrected Jesus.

Your straw man may fit your designs--but it does not explain the presence of the Book of Mormon.

Originally Posted by DrDavidT

Uhm...no. Not even close.

Jesus was seen by over 500 people not just the disciples, could have even been more.

And just how does that somehow cover up or cancel out the fact the LDS have had numerous heavenly manifestations, and a written testimony as scripture--with witnesses--and the Book of Mormon?

That seems to be the mold God always follows--revelations about God or His economy never before expounded upon in general, with a written record.

God followed that same pattern with Moses, the NT apostles--and the Restoration--which was prophesied of:


Acts 3:21---King James Version (KJV)
21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of res***ution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.

Testimony of Three Witnesses

Be it known unto all nations, kindreds, tongues, and people, unto whom this work shall come: That we, through the grace of God the Father, and our Lord Jesus Christ, have seen the plates which contain this record, which is a record of the people of Nephi, and also of the Lamanites, their brethren, and also of the people of Jared, who came from the tower of which hath been spoken. And we also know that they have been translated by the gift and power of God, for his voice hath declared it unto us; wherefore we know of a surety that the work is true. And we also testify that we have seen the engravings which are upon the plates; and they have been shown unto us by the power of God, and not of man. And we declare with words of soberness, that an angel of God came down from heaven, and he brought and laid before our eyes, that we beheld and saw the plates, and the engravings thereon; and we know that it is by the grace of God the Father, and our Lord Jesus Christ, that we beheld and bear record that these things are true. And it is marvelous in our eyes. Nevertheless, the voice of the Lord commanded us that we should bear record of it; wherefore, to be obedient unto the commandments of God, we bear testimony of these things. And we know that if we are faithful in Christ, we shall rid our garments of the blood of all men, and be found spotless before the judgment-seat of Christ, and shall dwell with him eternally in the heavens. And the honor be to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Ghost, which is one God. Amen.

Oliver Cowdery
David Whitmer
Martin Harris


Testimony of Eight Witnesses

Be it known unto all nations, kindreds, tongues, and people, unto whom this work shall come: That Joseph Smith, Jun., the translator of this work, has shown unto us the plates of which hath been spoken, which have the appearance of gold; and as many of the leaves as the said Smith has translated we did handle with our hands; and we also saw the engravings thereon, all of which has the appearance of ancient work, and of curious workmanship. And this we bear record with words of soberness, that the said Smith has shown unto us, for we have seen and hefted, and know of a surety that the said Smith has got the plates of which we have spoken. And we give our names unto the world, to witness unto the world that which we have seen. And we lie not, God bearing witness of it.

Christian Whitmer
Jacob Whitmer
Peter Whitmer, Jun.
John Whitmer
Hiram Page
Joseph Smith, Sen.
Hyrum Smith
Samuel H. Smith

[Berean]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

Testimony of Three Witnesses

Be it known unto all nations, kindreds, tongues, and people, unto whom this work shall come: That we, through the grace of God the Father, and our Lord Jesus Christ, have seen the plates which contain this record, which is a record of the people of Nephi, and also of the Lamanites, their brethren, and also of the people of Jared, who came from the tower of which hath been spoken. And we also know that they have been translated by the gift and power of God, for his voice hath declared it unto us; wherefore we know of a surety that the work is true. And we also testify that we have seen the engravings which are upon the plates; and they have been shown unto us by the power of God, and not of man. And we declare with words of soberness, that an angel of God came down from heaven, and he brought and laid before our eyes, that we beheld and saw the plates, and the engravings thereon; and we know that it is by the grace of God the Father, and our Lord Jesus Christ, that we beheld and bear record that these things are true. And it is marvelous in our eyes. Nevertheless, the voice of the Lord commanded us that we should bear record of it; wherefore, to be obedient unto the commandments of God, we bear testimony of these things. And we know that if we are faithful in Christ, we shall rid our garments of the blood of all men, and be found spotless before the judgment-seat of Christ, and shall dwell with him eternally in the heavens. And the honor be to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Ghost, which is one God. Amen.

Oliver Cowdery
David Whitmer
Martin Harris


Testimony of Eight Witnesses

Be it known unto all nations, kindreds, tongues, and people, unto whom this work shall come: That Joseph Smith, Jun., the translator of this work, has shown unto us the plates of which hath been spoken, which have the appearance of gold; and as many of the leaves as the said Smith has translated we did handle with our hands; and we also saw the engravings thereon, all of which has the appearance of ancient work, and of curious workmanship. And this we bear record with words of soberness, that the said Smith has shown unto us, for we have seen and hefted, and know of a surety that the said Smith has got the plates of which we have spoken. And we give our names unto the world, to witness unto the world that which we have seen. And we lie not, God bearing witness of it.

Christian Whitmer
Jacob Whitmer
Peter Whitmer, Jun.
John Whitmer
Hiram Page
Joseph Smith, Sen.
Hyrum Smith
Samuel H. Smith

Nonsense.

While some of the statements made by the various witnesses to the Book of Mormon imply that they saw the plates with their natural eyes, other statements indicate that the viewing was actually in a vision. In fact, one Mormon gave up belief in the Book of Mormon when he heard Martin Harris state that the witnesses only saw the plates in a visionary state. Stephen Burnett related this event in a letter to Lyman E. Johnson on April 15, 1838:

I have reflected long and deliberately upon the history of this church & weighed the evidence for & against it—loth to give it up—but when I came to hear Martin Harris state in a public congregation that he never saw the plates with his natural eyes only in vision or imagination, neither Oliver [Cowdery] nor David [Whitmer] & also that the eight witnesses never saw them & hesitated to sign that instrument [their statement at the front of the Book of Mormon] for that reason, but were persuaded to do it, the last pedestal gave way, in my view our foundations was sapped & the entire superstructure fell a heap of ruins . . . M[artin] Harris arose & said he was sorry for any man who rejected the Book of Mormon for he knew it was true, he said he had hefted the plates repeatedly in a box with only a tablecloth or a handkerchief over them, but he never saw them only as he saw a city through a mountain. And said that he never should have told that the testimony of the eight [witnesses] was false, if it had not been picked out of [h]im but should have let it p***ed as it was . . . (Early Mormon Documents, vol. 2, pp. 291-292).

It is ***umed that Harris was saying that the eight witnesses did not see the plates with the natural eye but in a vision, not that they lied about their experience.

LDS scholar Marvin Hill discussed the issue of the plates and whether the witnesses physically saw the plates or only in a vision:

In the revelation given the three witnesses before they viewed the plates they were told, "it is by your faith that you shall view them" and "ye shall testify that you have seen them, even as my servant Joseph Smith Jr. has seen them, for it is by my power that he has seen them." There is testimony from several independent interviewers, all non-Mormon, that Martin Harris and David Whitmer said they saw the plates with their "spiritual eyes" only. Among others, A. Metcalf and John Gilbert, as well as Reuben P. Harmon and Jesse Townsend, gave testimonies to this effect. This is contradicted, however, by statements like that of David Whitmer in the Saints Herald in 1882, "these hands handled the plates, these eyes saw the angel." But Z. H. Gurley elicited from Whitmer a not so positive response to the question, "did you touch them?" His answer was, "We did not touch nor handle the plates." Asked about the table on which the plates rested, Whitmer replied, "the table had the appearance of literal wood as shown in the visions of the glory of God." . . .

So far as the eight witnesses go, William Smith said his father never saw the plates except under a frock. And Stephen Burnett quotes Martin Harris that "the eight witnesses never saw them & hesitated to sign that instrument [their testimony published in the Book of Mormon] for that reason, but were persuaded to do it." Yet John Whitmer told Wilhelm Poulson of Ovid, Idaho, in 1878 that he saw the plates when they were not covered, and he turned the leaves. Hiram Page, another of the eight witnesses, left his peculiar testimony in a letter in the Ensign of Liberty in 1848:

As to the Book of Mormon, it would be doing injustice to myself and to the work of God of the last days, to say that I could know a thing to be true in 1830, and know the same thing to be false in 1847. To say my mind was so treacherous that I have forgotten what I saw, to say that a man of Joseph's ability, who at that time did not know how to pronounce the word Nephi, could write a book of six hundred pages, as correct as the Book of Mormon without supernatural power. And to say that those holy Angels who came and showed themselves to me as I was walking through the field, to confirm me in the work of the Lord of the last days—three of whom came to me afterwards and sang an hymn in their own pure language; yes, it would be treating the God of heaven with contempt, to deny these testimonies.

With only a veiled reference to "what I saw," Page does not say he saw the plates but that angels confirmed him in his faith. Neither does he say that any coercion was placed upon him to secure his testimony. Despite Page's inconsistencies, it is difficult to know what to make of Harris' affirmation that the eight saw no plates in the face of John Whitmer's testimony. The original testimony of these eight men in the Book of Mormon reads somewhat ambiguously, not making clear whether they handled the plates or the "leaves" of the translated m****cript. Thus there are some puzzling aspects to the testimonies of the witnesses ("Brodie Revisited: A Reappraisal," by Marvin S. Hill, Dialogue: A Journal of Mormon Thought, vol. 7, no. 4, pp. 83-85).

Further reinforcing the position that the eight witnesses never saw the actual plates, except for a possible vision, is the following statement of Martin Harris:

These plates were usually kept in a cherry box made for that purpose in the possession of Joseph and myself. The plates were kept from the sight of the world, and no one, save Oliver Cowdery, myself, Joseph Smith, Jr., and David Whitmer, ever saw them (Early Mormon Documents, vol. 2, p. 306).

Even though Harris says the three witnesses saw the plates, he obviously is still referring to a vision. In 1840 John A. Clark, pastor of Palmyra's Zion's Episcopal Church in the mid-1820's, gave the following account of Martin Harris seeing the plates:

A gentleman in Palmyra, bred to the law, a professor of religion, and of undoubted veracity told me that on one occasion, he appealed to Harris and asked him directly, —"Did you see those plates?" Harris replied, he did. "Did you see the plates, and the engraving on them with your bodily eyes?" Harris replied, "Yes, I saw them with my eyes,—they were shown unto me by the power of God and not of man." "But did you see them with your natural,—your bodily eyes, just as you see this pencil-case in my hand? Now say no or yes to this." Harris replied,—"Why I did not see them as I do that pencil-case, yet I saw them with the eye of faith; I saw them just as distinctly as I see any thing around me,—though at the time they were covered over with a cloth" (Early Mormon Documents, vol. 2, p. 270).

Thus it appears that only Joseph Smith could claim to see the plates with the natural eye. More Here

[DrDavidT]

why are mormons not asking their leaders for the golden plates to double check Smith and get verification for their beliefs?

[Erundur]

Originally Posted by DrDavidT

why are mormons not asking their leaders for the golden plates to double check Smith and get verification for their beliefs?

Because they don't have the plates.

[DrDavidT]

Originally Posted by Erundur

Because they don't have the plates.

That we know. They never existed.

With the Bible we have thousands of complete m****cripts and fragments and biblical students can go over the earliest ones and trace the preservation of God's word from the 7th century BC to the DSS (200 BC onward) plus a myriad for the New T. Anyone can do this and see God at work keeping his word the same for everyone YET with the Mormons NO ONE has this luxury with the book of Mormon or their other scriptures.

makes one wonder why anyone would trust the mormon scriptures when they cannot verify one word of any of the texts or see that they actually came from their god.

[Erundur]

Originally Posted by DrDavidT

They never existed.

Of course they did. We know because at least a dozen people saw them.

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by Erundur

Of course they did. We know because at least a dozen people saw them.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Mormon_witnesses

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by Erundur

Of course they did. We know because at least a dozen people saw them.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Mormon_witnesses

[DrDavidT]

Originally Posted by Erundur

Of course they did. We know because at least a dozen people saw them.

as compared to the millions of people who have seen, read, studied, translated the m****cript record for the non-mormon bible? Why can't normal mormons study the source of their religious faith? Why keep them a secret if they are so important?

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by DrDavidT

as compared to the millions of people who have seen, read, studied, translated the m****cript record for the non-mormon bible? Why can't normal mormons study the source of their religious faith? Why keep them a secret if they are so important?

Just a note here, David.

The LDS still have a portion of the original translated m****cript for the Book of Mormon. That's something the Biblical text cannot claim, even though the LDS believe both are the Word of God--and both are canonized scripture in the LDS church.

[Erundur]

Originally Posted by DrDavidT

as compared to the millions of people who have seen, read, studied, translated the m****cript record for the non-mormon bible?

Non-Mormon Bible? You know that Mormons believe the same Bible you do, right? Maybe not the same translation, but the same Bible.

Why can't normal mormons study the source of their religious faith? Why keep them a secret if they are so important?

I don't know what you're talking about here. What aren't normal Mormons able to study?

[DrDavidT]

Originally Posted by Erundur

Non-Mormon Bible? You know that Mormons believe the same Bible you do, right? Maybe not the same translation, but the same Bible.


I don't know what you're talking about here. What aren't normal Mormons able to study?

no they don't. they have their one version with smiths editing. they do not have the bible at all. your second question means nothing as it derails the thread.

[Erundur]

Originally Posted by DrDavidT

no they don't. they have their one version with smiths editing.

Ah--you think we only use the JST. You'll be relieved to learn that English-speaking LDS primarily use the KJV. I also have a NRSV and a Reina-Valera 1960.

your second question means nothing as it derails the thread.

What? You brought it up.

Originally Posted by DrDavidT

Why can't normal mormons study the source of their religious faith? Why keep them a secret if they are so important?

I don't know what you're talking about here. What aren't normal Mormons able to study?

[DrDavidT]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

Just a note here, David.

The LDS still have a portion of the original translated m****cript for the Book of Mormon. That's something the Biblical text cannot claim, even though the LDS believe both are the Word of God--and both are canonized scripture in the LDS church.

we have God's original word as well if we didn't then God didn't keep his promise.

[DrDavidT]

Originally Posted by Erundur

Ah--you think we only use the JST. You'll be relieved to learn that English-speaking LDS primarily use the KJV. I also have a NRSV and a Reina-Valera 1960.


What? You brought it up.


I don't know what you're talking about here. What aren't normal Mormons able to study?

You do not have the golden plates, no mss. record, nothing. you can't even get the angel moroni to return, what do you have to study?

[Erundur]

Originally Posted by DrDavidT

You do not have the golden plates, no mss. record, nothing.

That's false.

you can't even get the angel moroni to return,

How many angels have you gotten to return?

what do you have to study?

Well, we have the scriptures and the words of God to his modern-day prophets. But what is it that normal Mormons aren't able to study? What is being kept secret?

[DrDavidT]

Originally Posted by Erundur

That's false.


How many angels have you gotten to return?


Well, we have the scriptures and the words of God to his modern-day prophets. But what is it that normal Mormons aren't able to study? What is being kept secret?

1. prove it

2. haven't tried

3. the origin of their religious writings. we have mss, fragments a rich textual history, you have nothing

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by DrDavidT

1. prove it

2. haven't tried

3. the origin of their religious writings. we have mss, fragments a rich textual history, you have nothing

David--you have no original autographs--whether fragments or MSS.

The LDS have a portion of the original m****cript for the Book of Mormon.

For me--it makes no difference, as both the Bible and the Book of Mormon are canonized scripture in the LDS church.

What one finds in the Biblical NT, as salvational doctrines--is also found in the LDS church.

Matthew 7:19-21---King James Version (KJV)
19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.