Golden Plates- An interesting point

[DrDavidT]

again, if these plates contain the truth then why hide them?

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by DrDavidT

again, if these plates contain the truth then why hide them?

Luke 16:25-31---King James Version (KJV)
25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would p*** from hence to you cannot; neither can they p*** to us, that would come from thence.
27 Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:
28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.
29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.
30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.
31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

[DrDavidT]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

Luke 16:25-31---King James Version (KJV)
25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would p*** from hence to you cannot; neither can they p*** to us, that would come from thence.
27 Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:
28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.
29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.
30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.
31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

that has NOTHING to do with the question asked

[DrDavidT]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

Luke 16:25-31---King James Version (KJV)
25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would p*** from hence to you cannot; neither can they p*** to us, that would come from thence.
27 Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:
28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.
29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.
30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.
31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

i hvae reported you for not discussing but avoiding questions and the topic

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by DrDavidT

that has NOTHING to do with the question asked

Hi David:

I believe it does. You are asking for proof of the plates--to handle them, to see them, to examine them, where are they, etc.

God does not work in such a fashion, for the main. He leaves a record, with witnesses--and tries the faith of His people.

Which is the same principle we find in the very existence of God--which neither you nor I have seen.

And is the same principle which is demonstrated in this testimony, IMO:

Luke 16:25-31---King James Version (KJV)
25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would p*** from hence to you cannot; neither can they p*** to us, that would come from thence.
27 Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:
28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.
29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.
30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.
31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

[DrDavidT]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

Hi David:

I believe it does. You are asking for proof of the plates--to handle them, to see them, to examine them, where are they, etc.

God does not work in such a fashion, for the main. He leaves a record, with witnesses--and tries the faith of His people.

Which is the same principle we find in the very existence of God--which neither you nor I have seen.

And is the same principle which is demonstrated in this testimony, IMO:

Luke 16:25-31---King James Version (KJV)
25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would p*** from hence to you cannot; neither can they p*** to us, that would come from thence.
27 Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:
28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.
29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.
30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.
31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

there is no real record for the golden plates and the witnesses can be re****ed. But since they are dead they are no longer witnesses now are they? where are the current witnesses who have seen and photographed the plates?

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by DrDavidT

there is no real record for the golden plates

The Book of Mormon is a real, existing record.

and the witnesses can be re****ed.

Not the first word from any witness has been posted where any of them denied their testimony.

But since they are dead they are no longer witnesses now are they?

Are you claiming all the apostles' record we find in the Biblical NT no longer cons***ute a witness?

[DrDavidT]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

The Book of Mormon is a real, existing record.



Not the first word from any witness has been posted where any of them denied their testimony.



Are you claiming all the apostles' record we find in the Biblical NT no longer cons***ute a witness?

your twisting of words is noted and ignored as it demonstrates a very lack of understanding of who actually wrote the Bible. it also demonstrates that you cannot discuss honestly.

i thought alan has done a great *** in posting the denials

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by DrDavidT

your twisting of words is noted and ignored as it demonstrates a very lack of understanding of who actually wrote the Bible. it also demonstrates that you cannot discuss honestly.

i thought alan has done a great *** in posting the denials

Hi David:

It seems those denials usually follow the same pattern as your post above--straw man arguments.

There hasn't been anyone who has posted any denial by the witnesses themselves. If you or Alan have any--please post them.

[DrDavidT]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

Hi David:

It seems those denials usually follow the same pattern as your post above--straw man arguments.

There hasn't been anyone who has posted any denial by the witnesses themselves. If you or Alan have any--please post them.

I haven't made a starw man argument yet. did you see the new thread posted for you? why are you afraid to visit there?

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by DrDavidT

I haven't made a starw man argument yet. did you see the new thread posted for you? why are you afraid to visit there?

I have not seen much of anything you have posted which amounted to more than a straw man argument.

I'm waiting on your response in your thread.

[DrDavidT]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

I have not seen much of anything you have posted which amounted to more than a straw man argument.

I'm waiting on your response in your thread.

but i have asked real questions. If the golden plates are so important why take them back to heaven? why rebury them? why hide them from people's eyes?

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by DrDavidT

but i have asked real questions. If the golden plates are so important why take them back to heaven? why rebury them? why hide them from people's eyes?

That's like asking why the autographs of the Biblical text are not available. The LDS don't place any value on the golden plates--but rather--what was translated from them, IE--the Book of Mormon. Just as they do not place any value on the autographs for the Biblical text--as they have what is translated from them--IE--the Bible.

So--could you explain to us what you believe would be added to mankind's testimony by viewing either the Golden plates--or the autographs?

As the scriptures testify to:

Luke 16:25-31---King James Version (KJV)
25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would p*** from hence to you cannot; neither can they p*** to us, that would come from thence.
27 Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:
28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.
29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.
30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.
31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

[DrDavidT]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

That's like asking why the autographs of the Biblical text are not available. The LDS don't place any value on the golden plates--but rather--what was translated from them, IE--the Book of Mormon. Just as they do not place any value on the autographs for the Biblical text--as they have what is translated from them--IE--the Bible.

So--could you explain to us what you believe would be added to mankind's testimony by viewing either the Golden plates--or the autographs?

As the scriptures testify to:

Luke 16:25-31---King James Version (KJV)
25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would p*** from hence to you cannot; neither can they p*** to us, that would come from thence.
27 Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:
28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.
29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.
30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.
31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

BUT we have ancient mss. to recheck what someone has done. you don't

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by DrDavidT

BUT we have ancient mss. to recheck what someone has done. you don't

Since the Bible is canonized scripture in the LDS church--they have the same m****cripts everyone else has.

The LDS also have some of the original translation m****cript for the Book of Mormon--and all of the printer's m****cript.

[DrDavidT]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

Since the Bible is canonized scripture in the LDS church--they have the same m****cripts everyone else has.

The LDS also have some of the original translation m****cript for the Book of Mormon--and all of the printer's m****cript.

Wrong again. Smith retranslated it so his ms enjoys no textual record. But with that said, even if you have the same textual record, it is how you apply the biblical verses that matter not the record itself. Mormons do not have the spirit of truth helping them thus they always get scriptures wrong and misapply them

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by DrDavidT

Wrong again. Smith retranslated it so his ms enjoys no textual record.

Hi David:

Cite, please. As I stated--the LDS have some of the original m****cript for the Book of Mormon--and all of the printer's m****cript, still extant today. What evidence, other than straw man arguments--do you have to the contrary?

Luke 16:25-31---King James Version (KJV)
25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would p*** from hence to you cannot; neither can they p*** to us, that would come from thence.
27 Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:
28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.
29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.
30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.
31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

[DrDavidT]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

Hi David:

Cite, please. As I stated--the LDS have some of the original m****cript for the Book of Mormon--and all of the printer's m****cript, still extant today. What evidence, other than straw man arguments--do you have to the contrary?

Luke 16:25-31---King James Version (KJV)
25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would p*** from hence to you cannot; neither can they p*** to us, that would come from thence.
27 Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:
28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.
29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.
30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.
31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

by ancient I mean an over 2,000 year track record. the mormons have not even 200 years

[DrDavidT]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

Hi David:

Cite, please. As I stated--the LDS have some of the original m****cript for the Book of Mormon--and all of the printer's m****cript, still extant today. What evidence, other than straw man arguments--do you have to the contrary?

Luke 16:25-31---King James Version (KJV)
25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would p*** from hence to you cannot; neither can they p*** to us, that would come from thence.
27 Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:
28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.
29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.
30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.
31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

by ancient I mean an over 2,000 year track record. the mormons have not even 200 years

[DrDavidT]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

Hi David:

Cite, please. As I stated--the LDS have some of the original m****cript for the Book of Mormon--and all of the printer's m****cript, still extant today. What evidence, other than straw man arguments--do you have to the contrary?

Luke 16:25-31---King James Version (KJV)
25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would p*** from hence to you cannot; neither can they p*** to us, that would come from thence.
27 Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:
28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.
29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.
30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.
31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

Just so you know, mormons do not hear moses or the prophets or they wouldn't tell the tale that they do about our origins.

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by DrDavidT

by ancient I mean an over 2,000 year track record. the mormons have not even 200 years

Originally Posted by DrDavidT

Just so you know, mormons do not hear moses or the prophets or they wouldn't tell the tale that they do about our origins.

Hi David:

Straw man after straw man.

David--do you have anything other than Taint so!! arguments to add to the posted material--or the Biblical scripture?

[DrDavidT]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

Hi David:

Straw man after straw man.

David--do you have anything other than Taint so!! arguments to add to the posted material--or the Biblical scripture?

no dberrie, you do not know what a strawman argument is. you just use the logical fallacy to avoid answering my questions

[DrDavidT]

if the mormons heard moses and the prophets, their beliefs would be different. this is not a starwamna but an opening for you to tell everyone what you believe about our origins and explain why it is different from Genesis

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by DrDavidT

no dberrie, you do not know what a strawman argument is. you just use the logical fallacy to avoid answering my questions

Which is another straw man retort.

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by DrDavidT

if the mormons heard moses and the prophets, their beliefs would be different. this is not a starwamna but an opening for you to tell everyone what you believe about our origins and explain why it is different from Genesis

What does the Golden Plates have to do with Genesis?

The LDS believe what is taught in Genesis:

Genesis 2:24-25---King James Version (KJV)
24 Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh.
25 And they were both naked, the man and his wife, and were not ashamed.

Was that a marriage in mortality--or immortality?