Did smith make the whole thing up?

[devils_ham]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

Are you claiming Mormonism is Evangelical Christian?

No, I don't believe it is....now. They have changed their doctrines so much, that maybe in a few years they will.
Which I hope they do. The LDS church now is so much different from the past church.
I do think the FLDS are the true Mormon church that J Smith had in mind though. The SLC version is a mere shell of what it used to be.

It seems that dberrie has posted on this website for a few years. Amazing perseverance. My hats off to you for telling it like you see it & how you understand truth.
Most of the LDS I meet won't at all.

[devils_ham]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

Are you claiming Mormonism is Evangelical Christian?

No, not at all...at least not now. It may in the future...since it changes doctrines so much, it might.

[devils_ham]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

Are you claiming Mormonism is Evangelical Christian?

No, not at all...at least not now. It may in the future...since it changes doctrines so much, it might.

[Christian]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

I thought you would like to answer to your accusation:



Again-- perhaps you would like to inform us what is found in the Biblical NT, as far as salvational doctrines go--that is not found in the LDS church?

Worship of the ONE AND ONLY REAL GOD WHO REALLY EXISTS ANYWHERE (see Isaiah 43:10, 44:6, 44:8, etc etc etc) Instead, you worship a supposedly 'heavenly father' who used to be a man, BECAME A GOD, but was a god from eternity to eternity, one of MANY GODS YOUR RELIGION TEACHES EXIST. (See pgp abraham3 and 4 of your unholy books)

[devils_ham]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

Are you claiming Mormonism is Evangelical Christian?

(Not sure if this will post or not....)

LDS doctrines seem to change ever couple of years.....so yeah it might become Christian as time p***es.

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by devils_ham

No, I don't believe it is....now. They have changed their doctrines so much, that maybe in a few years they will.

Which I hope they do. The LDS church now is so much different from the past church.

The NT church looked entirely different in the end of the Book of Acts than in the beginning.

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by devils_ham

(Not sure if this will post or not....)

LDS doctrines seem to change ever couple of years.....so yeah it might become Christian as time p***es.

When you state "Christian"--are you referring to the faith alone theology--where one is taught a salvation through a faith without works--or the true Christianity of the Biblical text?

Matthew 19:16-19---King James Version (KJV)
16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by Christian

[COLOR=#0000ff]Worship of the ONE AND ONLY REAL GOD WHO REALLY EXISTS ANYWHERE

Would that be this one?

1 Corinthians 8:6---King James Version (KJV)
6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

1 Timothy 2:5--King James Version (KJV)
5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

Ephesians 4:4-6--King James Version (KJV)
4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;
5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

1 Peter 1:3--King James Version (KJV)
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

John 17:3---King James Version (KJV)
3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

[devils_ham]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

When you state "Christian"--are you referring to the faith alone theology--where one is taught a salvation through a faith without works--or the true Christianity of the Biblical text?

Matthew 19:16-19---King James Version (KJV)
16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

Ok, this is true. Didnt mean to make it sound otherwise....
also says:
20 “All these I have kept,” the young man said, “What do I still lack?”
21 Jesus answered, “If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.”

Doesnt it say anywhere in the Bible that you have to wear temple garments, abstain from tea/coffee, preform temple ordinances, that women can only get exaltation thru a marriage, etc.

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post When you state "Christian"--are you referring to the faith alone theology--where one is taught a salvation through a faith without works--or the true Christianity of the Biblical text?

Matthew 19:16-19---King James Version (KJV)
16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

Originally Posted by devils_ham

Ok, this is true. Didnt mean to make it sound otherwise....

If it is--then faith alone theology is false, IMO. How do you fit the above scripture into faith alone theology?

also says:
20 “All these I have kept,” the young man said, “What do I still lack?”
21 Jesus answered, “If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.”

How does that somehow cover up or cancel out what the scriptures do bear testimony to, as truth-- IE:

Matthew 19:16-19---King James Version (KJV)
16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

Doesnt it say anywhere in the Bible that you have to wear temple garments,

You mean such as these?

Revelation 7:13-15---King James Version (KJV)
13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?
14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
15 Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.

abstain from tea/coffee, preform temple ordinances,

Temple ordinances have been around for a long time.

that women can only get exaltation thru a marriage, etc.

Revelation 19:7-9---King James Version (KJV)
7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.
8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.
9 And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.

Devils--could you show us where repentance water baptism for the remission of sins--the gift of the Holy Ghost--apostles--Gentiles as priesthood holders--etc--is found in the OT?

IOW--the scriptures show whenever God acts among men--He reveals things never before expounded upon to mankind--and leaves a scriptural record of heavenly revelations.

That is the way of God--we see it with Abraham, Moses, the NT--and the LDS church:

D&C 110

1 The veil was taken from our minds, and the eyes of our understanding were opened.
2 We saw the Lord standing upon the breastwork of the pulpit, before us; and under his feet was a paved work of pure gold, in color like amber.
3 His eyes were as a flame of fire; the hair of his head was white like the pure snow; his countenance shone above the brightness of the sun; and his voice was as the sound of the rushing of great waters, even the voice of Jehovah, saying:
4 I am the first and the last; I am he who liveth, I am he who was slain; I am your advocate with the Father.
5 Behold, your sins are forgiven you; you are clean before me; therefore, lift up your heads and rejoice.
6 Let the hearts of your brethren rejoice, and let the hearts of all my people rejoice, who have, with their might, built this house to my name.
7 For behold, I have accepted this house, and my name shall be here; and I will manifest myself to my people in mercy in this house.
8 Yea, I will appear unto my servants, and speak unto them with mine own voice, if my people will keep my commandments, and do not pollute this holy house.
9 Yea the hearts of thousands and tens of thousands shall greatly rejoice in consequence of the blessings which shall be poured out, and the endowment with which my servants have been endowed in this house.
10 And the fame of this house shall spread to foreign lands; and this is the beginning of the blessing which shall be poured out upon the heads of my people. Even so. Amen.
11 After this vision closed, the heavens were again opened unto us; and Moses appeared before us, and committed unto us the keys of the gathering of Israel from the four parts of the earth, and the leading of the ten tribes from the land of the north.
12 After this, Elias appeared, and committed the dispensation of the gospel of Abraham, saying that in us and our seed all generations after us should be blessed.
13 After this vision had closed, another great and glorious vision burst upon us; for Elijah the prophet, who was taken to heaven without tasting death, stood before us, and said:
14 Behold, the time has fully come, which was spoken of by the mouth of Malachi—testifying that he [Elijah] should be sent, before the great and dreadful day of the Lord come—
15 To turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the children to the fathers, lest the whole earth be smitten with a curse—
16 Therefore, the keys of this dispensation are committed into your hands; and by this ye may know that the great and dreadful day of the Lord is near, even at the doors.

[Berean]

Originally Posted by Phoenix

Maybe in your dreams he did.

You are so terrified of the possibility that he didn't make the whole thing up, that you desperately lash out at people whom you don't even know. You call them names. You insult them. You break half the rules that Jesus wants His disciples to obey. That's how scared you are of the possibility that Joseph Smith couldn't have made the whole thing up. It's a pretty pathetic thing to watch: the desperate, childish outbursts, in a public forum.


Here are some words from the Book of Mormon:
"Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the living God." (Mormon, chapter 5)

....and you're saying that there's no one, anywhere who can verify those words??

That's too bad, that you don't think you are able to verify those words. It's sad, really, when in reality, millions and millions of Christians, who aren't Christian in screen-name only, can and do verify that Jesus is the Christ and is the Son of God.
And millions of Christians have been verifying it over many centuries.


So you're claiming that Joseph Smith, all by himself, translated over 500 pages of text in a few short months' time. Do you think you could do something like that, without help from anyone else, and without any electronic devices?

Or was Joseph Smith able to do something that you admit you are UNable to do?


But you said that NOT ONE WORD was translated by anyone OTHER than joe smith himself. Now you say he DIDN"T translate anything. Aren't you contradicting yourself?



I think you're proving yourself wrong.


His scribes and his wife were eyewitnesses. You were not. They say he translated the Book of Mormon. They never changed their testimony of that. Their testimony carries a lot more weight than the childish rantings of some anonymous nobody on the internet--who wasn't there, who wasn't a witness.


The finished product is verifiable evidence. The testimonies of the eyewitnesses are verifiable evidence, since their statements can be verified as actually coming from them. The fact that you are unable to do what Joseph Smith did, is evidence that he had abilities that you can only dream of.

Nonsense.

I believe Smith plagiarized the Book of Mormon from other authors.

Watch this video

It discusses in detail, the evidences concerning the history and archeology of the Book of Mormon and the facts surrounding the origin and translation of the Book of Abraham.

It also points to the writings of five contemporary authors whose books contained stories which Smith appears to have drawn from to write the Book of Mormon.

It also contrasts evidences for the Bible with those for the Book of Mormon. It is worth your time if you are truly interested in the truth.

[Christian]

phoenix posted:

Maybe in your dreams he did.

IN REALITY, you cannot demonstrate that he did not.

You are so terrified of the possibility that he didn't make the whole thing up, that you desperately lash out at people whom you don't even know. You call them names. You insult them. You break half the rules that Jesus wants His disciples to obey. That's how scared you are of the possibility that Joseph Smith couldn't have made the whole thing up. It's a pretty pathetic thing to watch: the desperate, childish outbursts, in a public forum.

​Now I am supposed to be 'terrified?" Naah, you give your cult too much credit. I am nauseated. I am saddened that you and others like you could accept such lies as if they came from God.

Here are some words from the Book of Mormon:
"Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the living God." (Mormon, chapter 5)

....and you're saying that there's no one, anywhere who can verify those words??

Nope, that is NOT what I say at all. OF COURSE he laced A LITTLE TRUTH INTO HIS LIES to make them seem real. That is what cons do.

That's too bad, that you don't think you are able to verify those words. It's sad, really, when in reality, millions and millions of Christians, who aren't Christian in screen-name only, can and do verify that Jesus is the Christ and is the Son of God.
And millions of Christians have been verifying it over many centuries.

Sorry, but nobody said I couldn't verify the FACT that Jesus Christ is indeed the Son of the Living God. Your strawman argument is a logical and BIBLICAL fallacy.

Gotta go. Maybe I'll answer the rest of your junk later.

It is now later. . .

My car is at the tire shop getting its tires siped (slices in the tread instead of using tire chains). We have been pretty well snowed in for about a week. My wife fell today, only minor bumps, bruises, and road rash. . .thank Jesus!

Our local WalMart is closed for the day. The manger told me that the roof was overweighted and they were going to clear it and maybe open at 6:00 pm.

Joey smith plagarized a bunch of his junk. His whole fairytale about Christ in the Americas is fiction. . .there is no reasonable reason to believe that ANY of it ever happened.

His fake 'test' of the book of mormon by 'praying to see if it is true' is a dismal failure. Those of us who did so with a prayerful heart, open mind, and ONLY the desire to serve GOD AS HE DESIRES US TO DO, but got NEGATIVE ANSWERS to those prayers are accused of either not being faithful to God, or to not being sincere when we prayed that prayer. The TRUTH is that YOUR god lied.

Joey smith made up a bunch of whoppers. He is no more a 'prophet of God' than charles manson is.

[Berean]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 :When you state "Christian"--are you referring to the faith alone theology--where one is taught a salvation through a faith without works--or the true Christianity of the Biblical text?"

Matthew 19:16-19---King James Version (KJV)
16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

If it is--then faith alone theology is false, IMO. How do you fit the above scripture into faith alone theology?

Jesus is not saying that justification is by faith plus works, but rather that a person who is truly justified by faith will have good works in his/her life. If a person claims to be a believer, but has no good works in his/her life, then he/she likely does not have genuine faith in Christ (James 2:14, 17, 20, 26).

Rom 11:5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace. 6And if by grace, then it is no longer of works; otherwise grace is no longer grace. But if it is of works, it is no longer grace; otherwise work is no longer work.

7What then? That which Israel seeks for, that he didn't obtain, but the chosen ones obtained it, and the rest were hardened.

8According as it is written, "God gave them a spirit of stupor, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear, to this very day."

9David says, "Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, a stumbling block, and a retribution to them.

10Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see. Bow down their back always."

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

How does that somehow cover up or cancel out what the scriptures do bear testimony to, as truth-- IE:

Matthew 19:16-19---King James Version (KJV)
16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

Cover up? That's a Mormon trait. Christians "expose" what Mormons try to cover up.

So to address your false dillema:

Matt 22:36"Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the law?" 37Jesus said to him, "'You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.' 38This is the first and great commandment. 39A second likewise is this, 'You shall love your neighbor as yourself.' 40The whole law and the prophets depend on these two commandments."

Eph 2:10 says "For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared before that we would walk in them."

John 6:28 They said therefore to him, "What must we do, that we may work the works of God?" 29Jesus answered them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in him whom he has sent."

Obviously grace and works cannot be mixed together since grace is unearned and undeserved. To work for something that cannot be earned is a contradiction. That's why Paul declared, "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast" (Eph. 2:8-9). If you can work for a "gift," then it is not a gift But, Rom. 6:23 says, "The gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord."

LDS do not believe that faith justifies anyone. Apostle Talmage said, "The sectarian dogma of justification by faith alone has exercised an influence for evil" (A. of F., p. 480). He also calls it a "pernicious doctrine" (Ibid., pp. 107, 480). But, Paul said, "We conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law" (Rom. 3:28). He also declared, "Therefore being justified by faith we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ" (Rom. 5:1). Paul warned, "But though we or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed" (Gal. 1:8-9).

That last statement is a clear warning. Can any Mormon tell me why this does not apply to the angel Moroni, who allegedly did exactly what this warning tells us to watch for and reject?

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

You mean such as these?

Revelation 7:13-15---King James Version (KJV)
13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?
14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
15 Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.

Temple ordinances have been around for a long time.

See below for comments on your temple ordinances.

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

Revelation 19:7-9---King James Version (KJV)
7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.
8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.
9 And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.

Devils--could you show us where repentance water baptism for the remission of sins--the gift of the Holy Ghost--apostles--Gentiles as priesthood holders--etc--is found in the OT?

I can demonstrate precursors to all of those things in the O.T.

Can you explain why the Book of Mormon is silent on the peculiar doctrines Mormonism practices today, including:

• Aaronic priesthood
• Baptisms for the dead
• Celestial marriage
• Church organization
• Exaltation
• Polytheism
• Three heavens

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

IOW--the scriptures show whenever God acts among men--He reveals things never before expounded upon to mankind--and leaves a scriptural record of heavenly revelations.

That is the way of God--we see it with Abraham, Moses, the NT--and the LDS church:

D&C 110

1 The veil was taken from our minds, and the eyes of our understanding were opened.
2 We saw the Lord standing upon the breastwork of the pulpit, before us; and under his feet was a paved work of pure gold, in color like amber.
3 His eyes were as a flame of fire; the hair of his head was white like the pure snow; his countenance shone above the brightness of the sun; and his voice was as the sound of the rushing of great waters, even the voice of Jehovah, saying:
4 I am the first and the last; I am he who liveth, I am he who was slain; I am your advocate with the Father.
5 Behold, your sins are forgiven you; you are clean before me; therefore, lift up your heads and rejoice.
6 Let the hearts of your brethren rejoice, and let the hearts of all my people rejoice, who have, with their might, built this house to my name.
7 For behold, I have accepted this house, and my name shall be here; and I will manifest myself to my people in mercy in this house.
8 Yea, I will appear unto my servants, and speak unto them with mine own voice, if my people will keep my commandments, and do not pollute this holy house.
9 Yea the hearts of thousands and tens of thousands shall greatly rejoice in consequence of the blessings which shall be poured out, and the endowment with which my servants have been endowed in this house.
10 And the fame of this house shall spread to foreign lands; and this is the beginning of the blessing which shall be poured out upon the heads of my people. Even so. Amen.
11 After this vision closed, the heavens were again opened unto us; and Moses appeared before us, and committed unto us the keys of the gathering of Israel from the four parts of the earth, and the leading of the ten tribes from the land of the north.
12 After this, Elias appeared, and committed the dispensation of the gospel of Abraham, saying that in us and our seed all generations after us should be blessed.
13 After this vision had closed, another great and glorious vision burst upon us; for Elijah the prophet, who was taken to heaven without tasting death, stood before us, and said:
14 Behold, the time has fully come, which was spoken of by the mouth of Malachi—testifying that he [Elijah] should be sent, before the great and dreadful day of the Lord come—
15 To turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the children to the fathers, lest the whole earth be smitten with a curse—
16 Therefore, the keys of this dispensation are committed into your hands; and by this ye may know that the great and dreadful day of the Lord is near, even at the doors.

Whenever God acts among men--He reveals things never before expounded upon to mankind--and leaves a scriptural record of heavenly revelations?

Nonsense.

Hebrews 1:1 God, having in the past spoken to the fathers through the prophets at many times and in various ways, 2has at the end of these days spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, through whom also he made the worlds.

So much for your modern day prophets.

[Christian]

Originally Posted by Phoenix

You said that when you show gay people the flaws in their reasoning, the gays accuse you of somehow being terrified of them.
But you accused Mormons of running from you like scared little girls. So, according to your "gay" theory, the Mormons have shown you the flaws in your reasoning.

Is this your first attempt at logical thinking?

My 'logical thinking' is just fine. YOUR PUNY ATTEMPT to connect two unrelated concepts together to form some kind of "logic" is extremely flawed.

Mormons also sometimes run from swarms of bees. . .does that mean they are all gay?

We CHRISTIANS accuse the mormons of following false gods.
Does that mean that mormons are 'terrified' of us CHRISTIANS?


Sorry, but your illogical thinking reflects only your own confusion.

[Christian]

Originally Posted by Phoenix

No. You made the same mistake the other Mormon-hater made: you didn't realize that he accused Mormons of being afraid of him.....but later he said that accusing people of being afraid is what the gay community does.

Did you get it this time?

Your confusion still shows all over the place. . .

First off, I don't hate mormons at all; many of my FRIENDS are mormon. They are NOT afraid of ME, but they ARE afraid of the truths I offer. . .so they, like you, RUN AWAY from the original subject to pretend something else instead.

Then they falsely accuse us CHRISTIANS of 'being afraid' just like the gay community does.

[Apologette]

Originally Posted by Christian

NOT ONE WORD of the book of mormon can be verified by anyone anywhere. NOT ONE WORD was translated by anyone OTHER than joe smith himself, there are no original-language texts for verifying that smith really TRANSLATED anythng at all. He merely SAID things; he didn't translate anything at all!

Think you can prove me wrong in this?

I would be interested in seeing your EVIDENCE.

Not nonsense about you having your 'tummy tuck,' or your 'feelings' or opinions, but VERIFIABLE EVIDENCE.

So far there appears to BE NONE​

Sure the flannel-mouthed Smith made the whole thing up. He was a huckster, a snake oil salesman, who made a living by telling gullible farmers he could find treasure in their backyards. Smith, the Mormon prophet, didn't stop lying, he just changed his target - he made a new living deceiving spiritually gullible people into believing that he was in contact with God. As a result, we have a whole state called Utah which is noted for its scams:

http://archive.sltrib.com/story.php?...fraud.html.csp

http://www.mormonstories.org/mormoni...-mark-pugsley/

Yup, folks - a CULTURE of fraud!

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by Berean

Jesus is not saying that justification is by faith plus works, but rather that a person who is truly justified by faith will have good works in his/her life. If a person claims to be a believer, but has no good works in his/her life, then he/she likely does not have genuine faith in Christ (James 2:14, 17, 20, 26).

But that only connects faith and works together--and begs this question:

Is "genuine faith" necessary to obtain eternal life?

Rom 11:5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace. 6And if by grace, then it is no longer of works; otherwise grace is no longer grace. But if it is of works, it is no longer grace; otherwise work is no longer work.

Paul is referencing certain rituals of the Mosaic law when he states "works"--not obedience to the gospel of Christ, obviously:

2 Thessalonians 1:7-9---King James Version (KJV)
7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;


Romans 2:5-11---King James Version (KJV)
5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
11 For there is no respect of persons with God.