Did smith make the whole thing up?

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by Christian View Post We still have over 5,200 partials and texts that date back to the first century to compare our translations to.

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post Perhaps you would like to present some evidence of those 5200 "first century" partial m****cripts?

Originally Posted by Christian

[COLOR=#0000ff]Try 5,200 partials and m****cripts SOME of which date back to the end of the first century.

Then perhaps you would give us the "some" first century m****cripts.

BUT NOT ONE M****CRIPT AT ALL of any of joey smith's junk from which he claimed to have looked at a rock inside his hat to 'translate.'

NOT ONE WORD of the bom can be CHECKED FOR ACCURATE TRANSLATION, and it has over 4,000 differences between the original and now, including changed words, phrases and entire paragraphs.

You might want to check that against the facts.

There is still about 25% extant of the original m****cript of the Book of Mormon translation--and the whole of the printer's copy.

[Christian]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

There is still about 25% extant of the original m****cript of the Book of Mormon translation--and the whole of the printer's copy.

NOT ONE WORD of the original m****cript of the book of mormon exists outside of joe smith's imagination and his cronies lies exists anywhere.

ALL YOU HAVE IS JOE'S SUPPOSED "translation" MADE BY STARRING AT A ROCK IN HIS HAT AND TELLING FAIRYTALES.

Yep, joey just made it all up, stealing some of it from the kjv Bible, some from other sources (perhaps), and telling fairytales. AND YOU CANNOT DEMONSTRATE OTHERWISE.

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post There is still about 25% extant of the original m****cript of the Book of Mormon translation--and the whole of the printer's copy.

Originally Posted by Christian

NOT ONE WORD of the original m****cript of the book of mormon exists outside of joe smith's imagination and his cronies lies exists anywhere.

Taint so!! retorts are neither convincing nor compelling.

As I stated--there is still about 25% of the original m****cript of the Book of Mormon that is extant.

What is your evidence otherwise?

Joseph Smith placed the original m****cript in the cornerstone of the Nauvoo temple--which was later recovered, although the weathering eroded about 75% of it away.

100% of the printer's copy is still extant--and in good condition.

[Christian]

berry posted:

Taint so!! retorts are neither convincing nor compelling.

As I stated--there is still about 25% of the original m****cript of the Book of Mormon that is extant.

Those are ONLY the pretended 'translations.' The ORIGINAL LANGUAGE M****CRIPTS (the supposed gold plates) don't exist ANYWHERE. NEITHER DO COPIES OF THEM EXIST ANYWHERE.

What is your evidence otherwise?

The FACT THAT YOU CANNOT PRODUCE THEM.

Joseph Smith placed the original m****cript in the cornerstone of the Nauvoo temple--which was later recovered, although the weathering eroded about 75% of it away.

100% of the printer's copy is still extant--and in good condition.

I own a copy of it. There are over 4,000 CHANGES that have been made since it was published. . .BUT IT IS ONLY JOE'S IMAGINED "TRANSLATION," and his ability to 'translate' anything from the rocks in his head or his hat CANNOT BE VERIFIED BY ANY MEANS AT ALL.

You are floundering, berrie. . .

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by Christian

Those are ONLY the pretended 'translations.' The ORIGINAL LANGUAGE M****CRIPTS (the supposed gold plates) don't exist ANYWHERE.

Moving the goalposts when you get burned is a common tactic--but cyberspace does not forget:

Originally Posted by Christian View Post NOT ONE WORD of the original m****cript of the book of mormon exists outside of joe smith's imagination and his cronies lies exists anywhere.

Again:

As I stated--there is still about 25% of the original translation m****cript of the Book of Mormon that is extant.

What is your evidence otherwise?

Joseph Smith placed the original m****cript in the cornerstone of the Nauvoo temple--which was later recovered, although the weathering eroded about 75% of it away.

100% of the printer's copy is still extant--and in good condition.

Those m****cripts can be "produced"--they are still extant. Today. Now.

Which means your original statement cannot be verified as truth.

[Christian]

berrie posted:

Originally Posted by Christian [IMG]http://www.waltermartin.com/forums/images/****ons/viewpost-right.png[/IMG]

Those are ONLY the pretended 'translations.' The ORIGINAL LANGUAGE M****CRIPTS (the supposed gold plates) don't exist ANYWHERE.

Moving the goalposts when you get burned is a common tactic--but cyberspace does not forget

True. And as you are trying to move them now, we DO notice.

Again:

As I stated--there is still about 25% of the original translation m****cript of the Book of Mormon that is extant.

What is your evidence otherwise?

Joseph Smith placed the original m****cript in the cornerstone of the Nauvoo temple--which was later recovered, although the weathering eroded about 75% of it away.

100% of the printer's copy is still extant--and in good condition.

Whooopee! copies of the so-called "translation" exist. Of course the OP has to do with the veracity of the comparison of joe smith's supposed "translating' by peeping at his peepstone in his hat, the ability to COMPARE the original language to joe's supposed "translation" STILL REMAINS unanswered and unanswuerable by you.
You still cannot demonstrate IN ANY REAL WAY that joe smith didn't just make a story up from his own corrupt imagination when he told the stories to his 'scribes' (usually ollie cowdery if I remember correctly).

Those m****cripts can be "produced"--they are still extant. Today. Now.

The m****cripts of the pretended "translations" are the WRONG M****CRIPTS. You are trying to move the goalposts again. . .STILL a stupid tactic.

Which means your original statement cannot be verified as truth.

​Only if we close our eyes and PRETEND as you seem wont to do.

Are you going to try to 'move the goalposts' yet again?

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by Christian

[COLOR=#0000ff][COLOR=#0000cd]Whooopee! copies of the so-called "translation" exist.

It's the ORIGINAL translation which 25% still exists.

[Christian]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

It's the ORIGINAL translation which 25% still exists.

But NONE of the original-LANGUAGE text to compare his so-called "peepstone-in-the-hat translation" to.

Yes, we know. The ORIGINAL translation texts for the NIV, NKJV and others are likely still ALL there. BIG DEAL (NOT)!

WHAT DO YOU HAVE TO SHOW THAT JOE SMITH 'TRANSLATED' ANYTHING ACCURATELY OR AT ALL? NADA. ZILCH. NOTHING. Of course!

ALL you have is his supposed "translation" that has been CHANGED over 4,000 times since then.

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Pos***'s the ORIGINAL translation which 25% still exists.

Originally Posted by Christian

[COLOR=#0000ff]But NONE of the original-LANGUAGE text to compare his so-called "peepstone-in-the-hat translation" to.

If it were "original language"--then it would not be a translation.

Your objection was to the translation:

Originally Posted by Christian View Post Whooopee! copies of the so-called "translation" exist.

Again--the 25% is not a copy--but the original translation.

Yes, we know. The ORIGINAL translation texts for the NIV, NKJV and others are likely still ALL there. BIG DEAL (NOT)!

Those translations were made from copies. The 25% original translation was taken from the "autographs" (golden plates) themselves.

[DrDavidT]

he had to make it all up. there is no evidence supporting one thing he said. none. from the supposed ancient people to the supposed ancient battle to the supposed angel moroni. mormons just won't admit the truth or be honest with themselves.

what golden plates? they mysteriously disappeared, no mormon has been found approved by their god to see them for almost 200 hundred years. the mormons here must re-evaluate their faith because they are not as good as they think

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by DrDavidT

he had to make it all up. there is no evidence supporting one thing he said. none.

Testimony of Three Witnesses

Be it known unto all nations, kindreds, tongues, and people, unto whom this work shall come: That we, through the grace of God the Father, and our Lord Jesus Christ, have seen the plates which contain this record, which is a record of the people of Nephi, and also of the Lamanites, their brethren, and also of the people of Jared, who came from the tower of which hath been spoken. And we also know that they have been translated by the gift and power of God, for his voice hath declared it unto us; wherefore we know of a surety that the work is true. And we also testify that we have seen the engravings which are upon the plates; and they have been shown unto us by the power of God, and not of man. And we declare with words of soberness, that an angel of God came down from heaven, and he brought and laid before our eyes, that we beheld and saw the plates, and the engravings thereon; and we know that it is by the grace of God the Father, and our Lord Jesus Christ, that we beheld and bear record that these things are true. And it is marvelous in our eyes. Nevertheless, the voice of the Lord commanded us that we should bear record of it; wherefore, to be obedient unto the commandments of God, we bear testimony of these things. And we know that if we are faithful in Christ, we shall rid our garments of the blood of all men, and be found spotless before the judgment-seat of Christ, and shall dwell with him eternally in the heavens. And the honor be to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Ghost, which is one God. Amen.

Oliver Cowdery
David Whitmer
Martin Harris


Testimony of Eight Witnesses

Be it known unto all nations, kindreds, tongues, and people, unto whom this work shall come: That Joseph Smith, Jun., the translator of this work, has shown unto us the plates of which hath been spoken, which have the appearance of gold; and as many of the leaves as the said Smith has translated we did handle with our hands; and we also saw the engravings thereon, all of which has the appearance of ancient work, and of curious workmanship. And this we bear record with words of soberness, that the said Smith has shown unto us, for we have seen and hefted, and know of a surety that the said Smith has got the plates of which we have spoken. And we give our names unto the world, to witness unto the world that which we have seen. And we lie not, God bearing witness of it.

Christian Whitmer
Jacob Whitmer
Peter Whitmer, Jun.
John Whitmer
Hiram Page
Joseph Smith, Sen.
Hyrum Smith
Samuel H. Smith

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Pos***'s the ORIGINAL translation which 25% still exists.

Quote Originally Posted by Christian View Post But NONE of the original-LANGUAGE text to compare his so-called "peepstone-in-the-hat translation" to.

If it were "original language"--then it would not be a translation.

Your objection was to the translation:

Originally Posted by Christian View Post Whooopee! copies of the so-called "translation" exist.

Again--the 25% is not a copy--but the original translation.

Yes, we know. The ORIGINAL translation texts for the NIV, NKJV and others are likely still ALL there. BIG DEAL (NOT)!

Those translations were made from copies. The 25% original translation was taken from the "autographs" (golden plates) themselves.

Bump for Christian

[Christian]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

If it were "original language"--then it would not be a translation.

Your objection was to the translation:


Again--the 25% is not a copy--but the original translation.



Those translations were made from copies. The 25% original translation was taken from the "autographs" (golden plates) themselves.

Bump for Christian

"original translation." No translation at all, you mean. NO 'translation' at all, just joe smith sticking his head into his hat with a rock in it, telling tall tales. STILL NO WAY TO CHECK TO SEE IF HE ACTUALLY 'TRANSLATED' ANYTHING AT ALL. NO WAY TO DEMONSTRATE IT WASN'T JUST JOE TELLING FAIRYTALES.


And EVERY WORD I said is absolutely TRUE, no matter HOW YOU TRY TO RUN AWAY FROM THAT TRUTH.

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by Christian

"original translation." No translation at all, you mean.

Yes, Christian--there is a translation--even the original translation which 25% is still extant. And that from the "autograph"(golden plates) themself.

I know that is hard on your argument--but its' the verifiable truth.

[Christian]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

Yes, Christian--there is a translation--even the original translation which 25% is still extant. And that from the "autograph"(golden plates) themself.

I know that is hard on your argument--but its' the verifiable truth.

EXCEPT FOR THE TRUTH that you keep running from. . .NOT ONE WORD CAN BE PROVEN TO BE AN ACTUAL TRANSLATION OF ANYTHING AT ALL. All you have is joe smith talking into the hat with a rock in it, NOTHING TRANSLATED AT ALL!

Keep running berry, keep running from the TRUTH

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View PostYes, Christian--there is a translation--even the original translation which 25% is still extant. And that from the "autograph"(golden plates) themself.

I know that is hard on your argument--but its' the verifiable truth.

Originally Posted by Christian

EXCEPT FOR THE TRUTH that you keep running from. . .NOT ONE WORD CAN BE PROVEN TO BE AN ACTUAL TRANSLATION OF ANYTHING AT ALL. All you have is joe smith talking into the hat with a rock in it, NOTHING TRANSLATED AT ALL!

Keep running berry, keep running from the TRUTH

What is your evidence the original translation papers that is now extant--is not a translation of what was on the Golden Plates?

[Christian]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

What is your evidence the original translation papers that is now extant--is not a translation of what was on the Golden Plates?

What proof do YOU have that any such plates EVER EXISTED IN REAL LIFE.

Why should any idiot believe they did? Nobody but joey smith and his gang ever claimed they did. We have NO "TRANSLATION" by anyone at all; just a bunch of fairytale telling by joe smith with his face in a hat with a rock in it..

[Christian]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

What is your evidence the original translation papers that is now extant--is not a translation of what was on the Golden Plates?

What proof do YOU have that any such plates EVER EXISTED IN REAL LIFE.

Why should any idiot believe they did? Nobody but joey smith and his gang ever claimed they did. We have NO "TRANSLATION" by anyone at all; just a bunch of fairytale telling by joe smith with his face in a hat with a rock in it..

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by Christian

[COLOR=#0000ff]What proof do YOU have that any such plates EVER EXISTED IN REAL LIFE.

Testimony of Three Witnesses

Be it known unto all nations, kindreds, tongues, and people, unto whom this work shall come: That we, through the grace of God the Father, and our Lord Jesus Christ, have seen the plates which contain this record, which is a record of the people of Nephi, and also of the Lamanites, their brethren, and also of the people of Jared, who came from the tower of which hath been spoken. And we also know that they have been translated by the gift and power of God, for his voice hath declared it unto us; wherefore we know of a surety that the work is true. And we also testify that we have seen the engravings which are upon the plates; and they have been shown unto us by the power of God, and not of man. And we declare with words of soberness, that an angel of God came down from heaven, and he brought and laid before our eyes, that we beheld and saw the plates, and the engravings thereon; and we know that it is by the grace of God the Father, and our Lord Jesus Christ, that we beheld and bear record that these things are true. And it is marvelous in our eyes. Nevertheless, the voice of the Lord commanded us that we should bear record of it; wherefore, to be obedient unto the commandments of God, we bear testimony of these things. And we know that if we are faithful in Christ, we shall rid our garments of the blood of all men, and be found spotless before the judgment-seat of Christ, and shall dwell with him eternally in the heavens. And the honor be to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Ghost, which is one God. Amen.

Oliver Cowdery
David Whitmer
Martin Harris


Testimony of Eight Witnesses

Be it known unto all nations, kindreds, tongues, and people, unto whom this work shall come: That Joseph Smith, Jun., the translator of this work, has shown unto us the plates of which hath been spoken, which have the appearance of gold; and as many of the leaves as the said Smith has translated we did handle with our hands; and we also saw the engravings thereon, all of which has the appearance of ancient work, and of curious workmanship. And this we bear record with words of soberness, that the said Smith has shown unto us, for we have seen and hefted, and know of a surety that the said Smith has got the plates of which we have spoken. And we give our names unto the world, to witness unto the world that which we have seen. And we lie not, God bearing witness of it.

Christian Whitmer
Jacob Whitmer
Peter Whitmer, Jun.
John Whitmer
Hiram Page
Joseph Smith, Sen.
Hyrum Smith
Samuel H. Smith