Did smith make the whole thing up?

[Christian]

NOT ONE WORD of the book of mormon can be verified by anyone anywhere. NOT ONE WORD was translated by anyone OTHER than joe smith himself, there are no original-language texts for verifying that smith really TRANSLATED anythng at all. He merely SAID things; he didn't translate anything at all!

Think you can prove me wrong in this?

I would be interested in seeing your EVIDENCE.

Not nonsense about you having your 'tummy tuck,' or your 'feelings' or opinions, but VERIFIABLE EVIDENCE.

So far there appears to BE NONE​

[DrDavidT]

Originally Posted by Christian

NOT ONE WORD of the book of mormon can be verified by anyone anywhere. NOT ONE WORD was translated by anyone OTHER than joe smith himself, there are no original-language texts for verifying that smith really TRANSLATED anythng at all. He merely SAID things; he didn't translate anything at all!

Think you can prove me wrong in this?

I would be interested in seeing your EVIDENCE.

Not nonsense about you having your 'tummy tuck,' or your 'feelings' or opinions, but VERIFIABLE EVIDENCE.

So far there appears to BE NONE​

Of course he made it up. He saw an opportunity to get rich by conning people through religion. Unfortunately for him he was killed long before he could realize this objective and killed because of sinful acts not because he was godly. Smith was nothing but a con man even in his religious ventures.

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by DrDavidT

Of course he made it up. He saw an opportunity to get rich by conning people through religion. Unfortunately for him he was killed long before he could realize this objective and killed because of sinful acts not because he was godly. Smith was nothing but a con man even in his religious ventures.

A couple of thoughts here:

1) The LDS seem to have prospered mightily since the death of Joseph Smith.

2) The tree is known by it's fruit--and the fruit of the LDS have been highly praised by the world, in some areas.

Meanwhile--over 6,000 LDS are in Louisiana for the cleanup.

[Christian]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

A couple of thoughts here:

1) The LDS seem to have prospered mightily since the death of Joseph Smith.

2) The tree is known by it's fruit--and the fruit of the LDS have been highly praised by the world, in some areas.

Meanwhile--over 6,000 LDS are in Louisiana for the cleanup.

Yes, by WORLDLY standards the mormons are doing just fine. BUT BY GODLY standars, your fruit is rotten.

Sending people to Hell by leading them with false gospels that change with the wind.
Following false gods and false christs, and false prophets

Sorry, but the lds folks who LIVE IN Louisiana HAVE to clean up their homes. Floods are like that.

Who knows HOW MANY CHRISTIANS are there, with food, clothing, blankets, medicine, etc?

My posted position is STILL COMPLETELY TRUE. BTW, there are muslims, and atheists in Louisiana too, for the clean-up. Yours is not the only heathen group there.

The OP (which you have failed to address:

Originally Posted by Christian [IMG]http://www.waltermartin.com/forums/images/****ons/viewpost-right.png[/IMG]
NOT ONE WORD of the book of mormon can be verified by anyone anywhere. NOT ONE WORD was translated by anyone OTHER than joe smith himself, there are no original-language texts for verifying that smith really TRANSLATED anythng at all. He merely SAID things; he didn't translate anything at all!

Think you can prove me wrong in this?

I would be interested in seeing your EVIDENCE.

Not nonsense about you having your 'tummy tuck,' or your 'feelings' or opinions, but VERIFIABLE EVIDENCE.

So far there appears to BE NONE​

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by Christian

Yes, by WORLDLY standards the mormons are doing just fine. BUT BY GODLY standars, your fruit is rotten.

Then perhaps you would like to inform us what is found in the Biblical NT, as far as salvational doctrines go--that is not found in the LDS church?

James 2:24---King James Version (KJV)
24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

[Christian]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

Then perhaps you would like to inform us what is found in the Biblical NT, as far as salvational doctrines go--that is not found in the LDS church?

James 2:24---King James Version (KJV)
24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

STILL running from the OP I see. . .can't face it? Here it is:

Originally Posted by Christian
NOT ONE WORD of the book of mormon can be verified by anyone anywhere. NOT ONE WORD was translated by anyone OTHER than joe smith himself, there are no original-language texts for verifying that smith really TRANSLATED anythng at all. He merely SAID things; he didn't translate anything at all!

Think you can prove me wrong in this?

I would be interested in seeing your EVIDENCE.

Not nonsense about you having your 'tummy tuck,' or your 'feelings' or opinions, but VERIFIABLE EVIDENCE.

So far there appears to BE NONE​

Your nonsense about your lack of knowledge of what 'faith only' is about has nothing to do with anything here, so quit your whining about it and DEAL with the OP instead of running away from it. By running away from it, failing to address it truthfully, you only show the pathetic falsehood of your religion.

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post Then perhaps you would like to inform us what is found in the Biblical NT, as far as salvational doctrines go--that is not found in the LDS church?

James 2:24---King James Version (KJV)
24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

Originally Posted by Christian

Your nonsense about your lack of knowledge of what 'faith only' is about has nothing to do with anything here,

I thought you would like to answer to your accusation:

Originally Posted by Christian View Post Yes, by WORLDLY standards the mormons are doing just fine. BUT BY GODLY standars, your fruit is rotten.

Again-- perhaps you would like to inform us what is found in the Biblical NT, as far as salvational doctrines go--that is not found in the LDS church?

Here is my response as to what I find in the Biblical text:

James 2:24---King James Version (KJV)
24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

[Christian]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

I thought you would like to answer to your accusation:



Again-- perhaps you would like to inform us what is found in the Biblical NT, as far as salvational doctrines go--that is not found in the LDS church?

Here is my response as to what I find in the Biblical text:

James 2:24---King James Version (KJV)
24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

Let's see now. . .beyond you RUNNING AWAY FROM THE OP that you obviously are unable to handle. . .

The OP:

NOT ONE WORD of the book of mormon can be verified by anyone anywhere. NOT ONE WORD was translated by anyone OTHER than joe smith himself, there are no original-language texts for verifying that smith really TRANSLATED anythng at all. He merely SAID things; he didn't translate anything at all!

Think you can prove me wrong in this?

I would be interested in seeing your EVIDENCE.

Not nonsense about you having your 'tummy tuck,' or your 'feelings' or opinions, but VERIFIABLE EVIDENCE.

So far there appears to BE NONE​

STILL cannot support your 'prophet' whose prophesies failed, and who tried to shoot his way out of jail with EVIDENCE?

YOU CANNOT DEAL WITH the OP?

HERE is the OP. . .AGAIN:

NOT ONE WORD of the book of mormon can be verified by anyone anywhere. NOT ONE WORD was translated by anyone OTHER than joe smith himself, there are no original-language texts for verifying that smith really TRANSLATED anythng at all. He merely SAID things; he didn't translate anything at all!

Think you can prove me wrong in this?

I would be interested in seeing your EVIDENCE.

Not nonsense about you having your 'tummy tuck,' or your 'feelings' or opinions, but VERIFIABLE EVIDENCE.

So far there appears to BE NONE​

So what do YOU have to offer in answer to the OP? NOTHING, OBVIOUSLY. You run away from it like a scared little girlie (as someone once said. . .)

Are you REALLY so afraid that the TRUTH will expose your false prophet?

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by Christian

Are you REALLY so afraid that the TRUTH will expose your false prophet?[/COLOR]

The truth is--the Book of Mormon is a reality--and the testimony of the witnesses:

Testimony of Three Witnesses

Be it known unto all nations, kindreds, tongues, and people, unto whom this work shall come: That we, through the grace of God the Father, and our Lord Jesus Christ, have seen the plates which contain this record, which is a record of the people of Nephi, and also of the Lamanites, their brethren, and also of the people of Jared, who came from the tower of which hath been spoken. And we also know that they have been translated by the gift and power of God, for his voice hath declared it unto us; wherefore we know of a surety that the work is true. And we also testify that we have seen the engravings which are upon the plates; and they have been shown unto us by the power of God, and not of man. And we declare with words of soberness, that an angel of God came down from heaven, and he brought and laid before our eyes, that we beheld and saw the plates, and the engravings thereon; and we know that it is by the grace of God the Father, and our Lord Jesus Christ, that we beheld and bear record that these things are true. And it is marvelous in our eyes. Nevertheless, the voice of the Lord commanded us that we should bear record of it; wherefore, to be obedient unto the commandments of God, we bear testimony of these things. And we know that if we are faithful in Christ, we shall rid our garments of the blood of all men, and be found spotless before the judgment-seat of Christ, and shall dwell with him eternally in the heavens. And the honor be to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Ghost, which is one God. Amen.


Testimony of Eight Witnesses

Be it known unto all nations, kindreds, tongues, and people, unto whom this work shall come: That Joseph Smith, Jun., the translator of this work, has shown unto us the plates of which hath been spoken, which have the appearance of gold; and as many of the leaves as the said Smith has translated we did handle with our hands; and we also saw the engravings thereon, all of which has the appearance of ancient work, and of curious workmanship. And this we bear record with words of soberness, that the said Smith has shown unto us, for we have seen and hefted, and know of a surety that the said Smith has got the plates of which we have spoken. And we give our names unto the world, to witness unto the world that which we have seen. And we lie not, God bearing witness of it.

Christian Whitmer
Jacob Whitmer
Peter Whitmer, Jun.
John Whitmer
Hiram Page
Joseph Smith, Sen.
Hyrum Smith
Samuel H. Smith

Christian--that is the pattern of the way God uses whenever He reveals Himself to mankind. That was the pattern we see in Moses, The NT apostles--and Joseph Smith:

1) He leaves a behind written record of heavenly manifestations--with witnesses

2) God reveals things that have never before been expounded upon to mankind in general--as revelation to mankind.

So--please remember the testimony of the NT writers:

Acts 3:21--King James Version (KJV)
21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of res***ution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.

[Christian]

berry forgot to post it ALL to give CONTEXT of what I said.

What proof do YOU have that any such plates EVER EXISTED IN REAL LIFE.

Why should any idiot believe they did? Nobody but joey smith and his gang ever claimed they did. We have NO "TRANSLATION" by anyone at all; just a bunch of fairytale telling by joe smith with his face in a hat with a rock in it..The truth is--the Book of Mormon is a reality--and the testimony of the witnesses:

AND as usual his text without context was PRETEXT, nothing more.

The TRUTH is that joey smith and his cronies are the ONLY 'witnesses' that said plates ever existed, and the TRUTH remains that NOBODY BUT JOEY supposedly 'translated' anything to get the bom TEXT, and joey only did his fairytale-telling with his face in his hat with a rock.

You have said NOT ONE WORD ANYWHERE to refute ANY of that TRUTH.

Instead, you have tried to RUN AWAY over and over again by playing little games instead.

Doesn't that BOTHER YOU?

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by Christian

berry forgot to post it ALL to give CONTEXT of what I said.

AND as usual his text without context was PRETEXT, nothing more.

The TRUTH is that joey smith and his cronies are the ONLY 'witnesses' that said plates ever existed, and the TRUTH remains that NOBODY BUT JOEY supposedly 'translated' anything to get the bom TEXT, and joey only did his fairytale-telling with his face in his hat with a rock.

You have said NOT ONE WORD ANYWHERE to refute ANY of that TRUTH.

Instead, you have tried to RUN AWAY over and over again by playing little games instead.

Doesn't that BOTHER YOU?

What bothers me are those who have nothing to offer--to show any heavenly connection--and then attack those who do:

Testimony of Three Witnesses

Be it known unto all nations, kindreds, tongues, and people, unto whom this work shall come: That we, through the grace of God the Father, and our Lord Jesus Christ, have seen the plates which contain this record, which is a record of the people of Nephi, and also of the Lamanites, their brethren, and also of the people of Jared, who came from the tower of which hath been spoken. And we also know that they have been translated by the gift and power of God, for his voice hath declared it unto us; wherefore we know of a surety that the work is true. And we also testify that we have seen the engravings which are upon the plates; and they have been shown unto us by the power of God, and not of man. And we declare with words of soberness, that an angel of God came down from heaven, and he brought and laid before our eyes, that we beheld and saw the plates, and the engravings thereon; and we know that it is by the grace of God the Father, and our Lord Jesus Christ, that we beheld and bear record that these things are true. And it is marvelous in our eyes. Nevertheless, the voice of the Lord commanded us that we should bear record of it; wherefore, to be obedient unto the commandments of God, we bear testimony of these things. And we know that if we are faithful in Christ, we shall rid our garments of the blood of all men, and be found spotless before the judgment-seat of Christ, and shall dwell with him eternally in the heavens. And the honor be to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Ghost, which is one God. Amen.

Oliver Cowdery
David Whitmer
Martin Harris


Testimony of Eight Witnesses

Be it known unto all nations, kindreds, tongues, and people, unto whom this work shall come: That Joseph Smith, Jun., the translator of this work, has shown unto us the plates of which hath been spoken, which have the appearance of gold; and as many of the leaves as the said Smith has translated we did handle with our hands; and we also saw the engravings thereon, all of which has the appearance of ancient work, and of curious workmanship. And this we bear record with words of soberness, that the said Smith has shown unto us, for we have seen and hefted, and know of a surety that the said Smith has got the plates of which we have spoken. And we give our names unto the world, to witness unto the world that which we have seen. And we lie not, God bearing witness of it.

Christian Whitmer
Jacob Whitmer
Peter Whitmer, Jun.
John Whitmer
Hiram Page
Joseph Smith, Sen.
Hyrum Smith
Samuel H. Smith

[devils_ham]

I'm curious, why are LDS members posting on this forum.....trying to defend their gospel..?
Its confusing as to what their motive is. Why they have the official LDS.org website to do this...fairmormon, etc, etc.

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by devils_ham

I'm curious, why are LDS members posting on this forum.....trying to defend their gospel..?
Its confusing as to what their motive is. Why they have the official LDS.org website to do this...fairmormon, etc, etc.

This board is "Mormonism". The question might should be--why are non-Mormons here?

[devils_ham]

Well this is the Walter Martin Ministries forum.....its an Evangelical Christian website.....

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by devils_ham

Well this is the Walter Martin Ministries forum.....its an Evangelical Christian website.....

Are you claiming Mormonism is Evangelical Christian?

[DrDavidT]

It is so funny that dberrie keeps posting the same witness statements as if no one has seen them in the first thousand times he posted them.

He doesn't get it, those witness statements are not evidence and mean little to nothing especially since it was family members and many people who left the cult later in life. those statements do not prove the golden plates existed nor will the repeated posting f them do anything but show that the mormons cannot prove what they claim is the foundation of their faith

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by DrDavidT

It is so funny that dberrie keeps posting the same witness statements as if no one has seen them in the first thousand times he posted them.

He doesn't get it, those witness statements are not evidence ...

Witness statements are always considered evidence in any court of law. The entire Biblical text is composed of witness testimony.

those statements do not prove the golden plates existed

Proof is only valid in the minds of those who are willing to accept it. And I agree with you--it is not proof--but rather, evidence.

nor will the repeated posting f them do anything but show that the mormons cannot prove what they claim is the foundation of their faith

The Biblical text claims the apostles and prophets form the foundation:

Ephesians 2:20--King James Version (KJV)
20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;

The LDS church is led by living, mortal apostles and prophets. Is yours?

[devils_ham]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

Are you claiming Mormonism is Evangelical Christian?

No, I don't believe it is....now. They have changed their doctrines so much, that maybe in a few years they will.
Which I hope they do. The LDS church now is so much different from the past church.
I do think the FLDS are the true Mormon church that J Smith had in mind though. The SLC version is a mere shell of what it used to be.

It seems that dberrie has posted on this website for a few years. Amazing perseverance. My hats off to you for telling it like you see it & how you understand truth.
Most of the LDS I meet won't at all.

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by devils_ham

No, I don't believe it is....now. They have changed their doctrines so much, that maybe in a few years they will.

Which I hope they do. The LDS church now is so much different from the past church.

The NT church looked entirely different in the end of the Book of Acts than in the beginning.

[devils_ham]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

Are you claiming Mormonism is Evangelical Christian?

No, not at all...at least not now. It may in the future...since it changes doctrines so much, it might.

[devils_ham]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

Are you claiming Mormonism is Evangelical Christian?

No, not at all...at least not now. It may in the future...since it changes doctrines so much, it might.

[devils_ham]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

Are you claiming Mormonism is Evangelical Christian?

(Not sure if this will post or not....)

LDS doctrines seem to change ever couple of years.....so yeah it might become Christian as time p***es.

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by devils_ham

(Not sure if this will post or not....)

LDS doctrines seem to change ever couple of years.....so yeah it might become Christian as time p***es.

When you state "Christian"--are you referring to the faith alone theology--where one is taught a salvation through a faith without works--or the true Christianity of the Biblical text?

Matthew 19:16-19---King James Version (KJV)
16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

[devils_ham]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

When you state "Christian"--are you referring to the faith alone theology--where one is taught a salvation through a faith without works--or the true Christianity of the Biblical text?

Matthew 19:16-19---King James Version (KJV)
16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

Ok, this is true. Didnt mean to make it sound otherwise....
also says:
20 “All these I have kept,” the young man said, “What do I still lack?”
21 Jesus answered, “If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.”

Doesnt it say anywhere in the Bible that you have to wear temple garments, abstain from tea/coffee, preform temple ordinances, that women can only get exaltation thru a marriage, etc.

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post When you state "Christian"--are you referring to the faith alone theology--where one is taught a salvation through a faith without works--or the true Christianity of the Biblical text?

Matthew 19:16-19---King James Version (KJV)
16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

Originally Posted by devils_ham

Ok, this is true. Didnt mean to make it sound otherwise....

If it is--then faith alone theology is false, IMO. How do you fit the above scripture into faith alone theology?

also says:
20 “All these I have kept,” the young man said, “What do I still lack?”
21 Jesus answered, “If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.”

How does that somehow cover up or cancel out what the scriptures do bear testimony to, as truth-- IE:

Matthew 19:16-19---King James Version (KJV)
16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

Doesnt it say anywhere in the Bible that you have to wear temple garments,

You mean such as these?

Revelation 7:13-15---King James Version (KJV)
13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?
14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
15 Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.

abstain from tea/coffee, preform temple ordinances,

Temple ordinances have been around for a long time.

that women can only get exaltation thru a marriage, etc.

Revelation 19:7-9---King James Version (KJV)
7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.
8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.
9 And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.

Devils--could you show us where repentance water baptism for the remission of sins--the gift of the Holy Ghost--apostles--Gentiles as priesthood holders--etc--is found in the OT?

IOW--the scriptures show whenever God acts among men--He reveals things never before expounded upon to mankind--and leaves a scriptural record of heavenly revelations.

That is the way of God--we see it with Abraham, Moses, the NT--and the LDS church:

D&C 110

1 The veil was taken from our minds, and the eyes of our understanding were opened.
2 We saw the Lord standing upon the breastwork of the pulpit, before us; and under his feet was a paved work of pure gold, in color like amber.
3 His eyes were as a flame of fire; the hair of his head was white like the pure snow; his countenance shone above the brightness of the sun; and his voice was as the sound of the rushing of great waters, even the voice of Jehovah, saying:
4 I am the first and the last; I am he who liveth, I am he who was slain; I am your advocate with the Father.
5 Behold, your sins are forgiven you; you are clean before me; therefore, lift up your heads and rejoice.
6 Let the hearts of your brethren rejoice, and let the hearts of all my people rejoice, who have, with their might, built this house to my name.
7 For behold, I have accepted this house, and my name shall be here; and I will manifest myself to my people in mercy in this house.
8 Yea, I will appear unto my servants, and speak unto them with mine own voice, if my people will keep my commandments, and do not pollute this holy house.
9 Yea the hearts of thousands and tens of thousands shall greatly rejoice in consequence of the blessings which shall be poured out, and the endowment with which my servants have been endowed in this house.
10 And the fame of this house shall spread to foreign lands; and this is the beginning of the blessing which shall be poured out upon the heads of my people. Even so. Amen.
11 After this vision closed, the heavens were again opened unto us; and Moses appeared before us, and committed unto us the keys of the gathering of Israel from the four parts of the earth, and the leading of the ten tribes from the land of the north.
12 After this, Elias appeared, and committed the dispensation of the gospel of Abraham, saying that in us and our seed all generations after us should be blessed.
13 After this vision had closed, another great and glorious vision burst upon us; for Elijah the prophet, who was taken to heaven without tasting death, stood before us, and said:
14 Behold, the time has fully come, which was spoken of by the mouth of Malachi—testifying that he [Elijah] should be sent, before the great and dreadful day of the Lord come—
15 To turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the children to the fathers, lest the whole earth be smitten with a curse—
16 Therefore, the keys of this dispensation are committed into your hands; and by this ye may know that the great and dreadful day of the Lord is near, even at the doors.