Did smith make the whole thing up?

[Christian]

Originally Posted by Phoenix

Who posted the following?
"You run away from it like a scared little girlie (as someone once said. ."


Was that a gay person who said that?

No, it was a STRAIGHT person DESCRIBING what the gay do. . .is English NOT YOUR FIRST LANGUAGE?

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Pos***'s the ORIGINAL translation which 25% still exists.

Originally Posted by Christian

[COLOR=#0000ff]But NONE of the original-LANGUAGE text to compare his so-called "peepstone-in-the-hat translation" to.

If it were "original language"--then it would not be a translation.

Your objection was to the translation:

Originally Posted by Christian View Post Whooopee! copies of the so-called "translation" exist.

Again--the 25% is not a copy--but the original translation.

Yes, we know. The ORIGINAL translation texts for the NIV, NKJV and others are likely still ALL there. BIG DEAL (NOT)!

Those translations were made from copies. The 25% original translation was taken from the "autographs" (golden plates) themselves.

[DrDavidT]

he had to make it all up. there is no evidence supporting one thing he said. none. from the supposed ancient people to the supposed ancient battle to the supposed angel moroni. mormons just won't admit the truth or be honest with themselves.

what golden plates? they mysteriously disappeared, no mormon has been found approved by their god to see them for almost 200 hundred years. the mormons here must re-evaluate their faith because they are not as good as they think

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by DrDavidT

he had to make it all up. there is no evidence supporting one thing he said. none.

Testimony of Three Witnesses

Be it known unto all nations, kindreds, tongues, and people, unto whom this work shall come: That we, through the grace of God the Father, and our Lord Jesus Christ, have seen the plates which contain this record, which is a record of the people of Nephi, and also of the Lamanites, their brethren, and also of the people of Jared, who came from the tower of which hath been spoken. And we also know that they have been translated by the gift and power of God, for his voice hath declared it unto us; wherefore we know of a surety that the work is true. And we also testify that we have seen the engravings which are upon the plates; and they have been shown unto us by the power of God, and not of man. And we declare with words of soberness, that an angel of God came down from heaven, and he brought and laid before our eyes, that we beheld and saw the plates, and the engravings thereon; and we know that it is by the grace of God the Father, and our Lord Jesus Christ, that we beheld and bear record that these things are true. And it is marvelous in our eyes. Nevertheless, the voice of the Lord commanded us that we should bear record of it; wherefore, to be obedient unto the commandments of God, we bear testimony of these things. And we know that if we are faithful in Christ, we shall rid our garments of the blood of all men, and be found spotless before the judgment-seat of Christ, and shall dwell with him eternally in the heavens. And the honor be to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Ghost, which is one God. Amen.

Oliver Cowdery
David Whitmer
Martin Harris


Testimony of Eight Witnesses

Be it known unto all nations, kindreds, tongues, and people, unto whom this work shall come: That Joseph Smith, Jun., the translator of this work, has shown unto us the plates of which hath been spoken, which have the appearance of gold; and as many of the leaves as the said Smith has translated we did handle with our hands; and we also saw the engravings thereon, all of which has the appearance of ancient work, and of curious workmanship. And this we bear record with words of soberness, that the said Smith has shown unto us, for we have seen and hefted, and know of a surety that the said Smith has got the plates of which we have spoken. And we give our names unto the world, to witness unto the world that which we have seen. And we lie not, God bearing witness of it.

Christian Whitmer
Jacob Whitmer
Peter Whitmer, Jun.
John Whitmer
Hiram Page
Joseph Smith, Sen.
Hyrum Smith
Samuel H. Smith

[Phoenix]

Originally Posted by Christian

No, it was a STRAIGHT person DESCRIBING what the gay do. . .is English NOT YOUR FIRST LANGUAGE?

You said that when you show gay people the flaws in their reasoning, the gays accuse you of somehow being terrified of them.
But you accused Mormons of running from you like scared little girls. So, according to your "gay" theory, the Mormons have shown you the flaws in your reasoning.

Is this your first attempt at logical thinking?

[alanmolstad]

well...the theory might hold water if all the Mormons were also gay...is that what you are suggesting?

[Christian]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

well...the theory might hold water if all the Mormons were also gay...is that what you are suggesting?

It sounds like what he is trying to claim, doesn't it. . .?

[Christian]

Originally Posted by Phoenix

You said that when you show gay people the flaws in their reasoning, the gays accuse you of somehow being terrified of them.
But you accused Mormons of running from you like scared little girls. So, according to your "gay" theory, the Mormons have shown you the flaws in your reasoning.

Is this your first attempt at logical thinking?

Of course that is NOT what I said, I said WHEN THEY ARE SHOWN their flaws they accuse US CHRISTIANS of being terrified of them.

Is this YOUR first attempt at reading? Your 'logical thinking' skills are sadly lacking. . .

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Pos***'s the ORIGINAL translation which 25% still exists.

Quote Originally Posted by Christian View Post But NONE of the original-LANGUAGE text to compare his so-called "peepstone-in-the-hat translation" to.

If it were "original language"--then it would not be a translation.

Your objection was to the translation:

Originally Posted by Christian View Post Whooopee! copies of the so-called "translation" exist.

Again--the 25% is not a copy--but the original translation.

Yes, we know. The ORIGINAL translation texts for the NIV, NKJV and others are likely still ALL there. BIG DEAL (NOT)!

Those translations were made from copies. The 25% original translation was taken from the "autographs" (golden plates) themselves.

Bump for Christian

[Christian]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

If it were "original language"--then it would not be a translation.

Your objection was to the translation:


Again--the 25% is not a copy--but the original translation.



Those translations were made from copies. The 25% original translation was taken from the "autographs" (golden plates) themselves.

Bump for Christian

"original translation." No translation at all, you mean. NO 'translation' at all, just joe smith sticking his head into his hat with a rock in it, telling tall tales. STILL NO WAY TO CHECK TO SEE IF HE ACTUALLY 'TRANSLATED' ANYTHING AT ALL. NO WAY TO DEMONSTRATE IT WASN'T JUST JOE TELLING FAIRYTALES.


And EVERY WORD I said is absolutely TRUE, no matter HOW YOU TRY TO RUN AWAY FROM THAT TRUTH.

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by Christian

"original translation." No translation at all, you mean.

Yes, Christian--there is a translation--even the original translation which 25% is still extant. And that from the "autograph"(golden plates) themself.

I know that is hard on your argument--but its' the verifiable truth.

[Christian]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

Yes, Christian--there is a translation--even the original translation which 25% is still extant. And that from the "autograph"(golden plates) themself.

I know that is hard on your argument--but its' the verifiable truth.

EXCEPT FOR THE TRUTH that you keep running from. . .NOT ONE WORD CAN BE PROVEN TO BE AN ACTUAL TRANSLATION OF ANYTHING AT ALL. All you have is joe smith talking into the hat with a rock in it, NOTHING TRANSLATED AT ALL!

Keep running berry, keep running from the TRUTH

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View PostYes, Christian--there is a translation--even the original translation which 25% is still extant. And that from the "autograph"(golden plates) themself.

I know that is hard on your argument--but its' the verifiable truth.

Originally Posted by Christian

EXCEPT FOR THE TRUTH that you keep running from. . .NOT ONE WORD CAN BE PROVEN TO BE AN ACTUAL TRANSLATION OF ANYTHING AT ALL. All you have is joe smith talking into the hat with a rock in it, NOTHING TRANSLATED AT ALL!

Keep running berry, keep running from the TRUTH

What is your evidence the original translation papers that is now extant--is not a translation of what was on the Golden Plates?

[Christian]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

What is your evidence the original translation papers that is now extant--is not a translation of what was on the Golden Plates?

What proof do YOU have that any such plates EVER EXISTED IN REAL LIFE.

Why should any idiot believe they did? Nobody but joey smith and his gang ever claimed they did. We have NO "TRANSLATION" by anyone at all; just a bunch of fairytale telling by joe smith with his face in a hat with a rock in it..

[Christian]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

What is your evidence the original translation papers that is now extant--is not a translation of what was on the Golden Plates?

What proof do YOU have that any such plates EVER EXISTED IN REAL LIFE.

Why should any idiot believe they did? Nobody but joey smith and his gang ever claimed they did. We have NO "TRANSLATION" by anyone at all; just a bunch of fairytale telling by joe smith with his face in a hat with a rock in it..

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by Christian

[COLOR=#0000ff]What proof do YOU have that any such plates EVER EXISTED IN REAL LIFE.

Testimony of Three Witnesses

Be it known unto all nations, kindreds, tongues, and people, unto whom this work shall come: That we, through the grace of God the Father, and our Lord Jesus Christ, have seen the plates which contain this record, which is a record of the people of Nephi, and also of the Lamanites, their brethren, and also of the people of Jared, who came from the tower of which hath been spoken. And we also know that they have been translated by the gift and power of God, for his voice hath declared it unto us; wherefore we know of a surety that the work is true. And we also testify that we have seen the engravings which are upon the plates; and they have been shown unto us by the power of God, and not of man. And we declare with words of soberness, that an angel of God came down from heaven, and he brought and laid before our eyes, that we beheld and saw the plates, and the engravings thereon; and we know that it is by the grace of God the Father, and our Lord Jesus Christ, that we beheld and bear record that these things are true. And it is marvelous in our eyes. Nevertheless, the voice of the Lord commanded us that we should bear record of it; wherefore, to be obedient unto the commandments of God, we bear testimony of these things. And we know that if we are faithful in Christ, we shall rid our garments of the blood of all men, and be found spotless before the judgment-seat of Christ, and shall dwell with him eternally in the heavens. And the honor be to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Ghost, which is one God. Amen.

Oliver Cowdery
David Whitmer
Martin Harris


Testimony of Eight Witnesses

Be it known unto all nations, kindreds, tongues, and people, unto whom this work shall come: That Joseph Smith, Jun., the translator of this work, has shown unto us the plates of which hath been spoken, which have the appearance of gold; and as many of the leaves as the said Smith has translated we did handle with our hands; and we also saw the engravings thereon, all of which has the appearance of ancient work, and of curious workmanship. And this we bear record with words of soberness, that the said Smith has shown unto us, for we have seen and hefted, and know of a surety that the said Smith has got the plates of which we have spoken. And we give our names unto the world, to witness unto the world that which we have seen. And we lie not, God bearing witness of it.

Christian Whitmer
Jacob Whitmer
Peter Whitmer, Jun.
John Whitmer
Hiram Page
Joseph Smith, Sen.
Hyrum Smith
Samuel H. Smith

[Christian]

berry forgot to post it ALL to give CONTEXT of what I said.

What proof do YOU have that any such plates EVER EXISTED IN REAL LIFE.

Why should any idiot believe they did? Nobody but joey smith and his gang ever claimed they did. We have NO "TRANSLATION" by anyone at all; just a bunch of fairytale telling by joe smith with his face in a hat with a rock in it..The truth is--the Book of Mormon is a reality--and the testimony of the witnesses:

AND as usual his text without context was PRETEXT, nothing more.

The TRUTH is that joey smith and his cronies are the ONLY 'witnesses' that said plates ever existed, and the TRUTH remains that NOBODY BUT JOEY supposedly 'translated' anything to get the bom TEXT, and joey only did his fairytale-telling with his face in his hat with a rock.

You have said NOT ONE WORD ANYWHERE to refute ANY of that TRUTH.

Instead, you have tried to RUN AWAY over and over again by playing little games instead.

Doesn't that BOTHER YOU?

[Phoenix]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

well...the theory might hold water if all the Mormons were also gay...is that what you are suggesting?

No. You made the same mistake the other Mormon-hater made: you didn't realize that he accused Mormons of being afraid of him.....but later he said that accusing people of being afraid is what the gay community does.

Did you get it this time?

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by Christian

berry forgot to post it ALL to give CONTEXT of what I said.

AND as usual his text without context was PRETEXT, nothing more.

The TRUTH is that joey smith and his cronies are the ONLY 'witnesses' that said plates ever existed, and the TRUTH remains that NOBODY BUT JOEY supposedly 'translated' anything to get the bom TEXT, and joey only did his fairytale-telling with his face in his hat with a rock.

You have said NOT ONE WORD ANYWHERE to refute ANY of that TRUTH.

Instead, you have tried to RUN AWAY over and over again by playing little games instead.

Doesn't that BOTHER YOU?

What bothers me are those who have nothing to offer--to show any heavenly connection--and then attack those who do:

Testimony of Three Witnesses

Be it known unto all nations, kindreds, tongues, and people, unto whom this work shall come: That we, through the grace of God the Father, and our Lord Jesus Christ, have seen the plates which contain this record, which is a record of the people of Nephi, and also of the Lamanites, their brethren, and also of the people of Jared, who came from the tower of which hath been spoken. And we also know that they have been translated by the gift and power of God, for his voice hath declared it unto us; wherefore we know of a surety that the work is true. And we also testify that we have seen the engravings which are upon the plates; and they have been shown unto us by the power of God, and not of man. And we declare with words of soberness, that an angel of God came down from heaven, and he brought and laid before our eyes, that we beheld and saw the plates, and the engravings thereon; and we know that it is by the grace of God the Father, and our Lord Jesus Christ, that we beheld and bear record that these things are true. And it is marvelous in our eyes. Nevertheless, the voice of the Lord commanded us that we should bear record of it; wherefore, to be obedient unto the commandments of God, we bear testimony of these things. And we know that if we are faithful in Christ, we shall rid our garments of the blood of all men, and be found spotless before the judgment-seat of Christ, and shall dwell with him eternally in the heavens. And the honor be to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Ghost, which is one God. Amen.

Oliver Cowdery
David Whitmer
Martin Harris


Testimony of Eight Witnesses

Be it known unto all nations, kindreds, tongues, and people, unto whom this work shall come: That Joseph Smith, Jun., the translator of this work, has shown unto us the plates of which hath been spoken, which have the appearance of gold; and as many of the leaves as the said Smith has translated we did handle with our hands; and we also saw the engravings thereon, all of which has the appearance of ancient work, and of curious workmanship. And this we bear record with words of soberness, that the said Smith has shown unto us, for we have seen and hefted, and know of a surety that the said Smith has got the plates of which we have spoken. And we give our names unto the world, to witness unto the world that which we have seen. And we lie not, God bearing witness of it.

Christian Whitmer
Jacob Whitmer
Peter Whitmer, Jun.
John Whitmer
Hiram Page
Joseph Smith, Sen.
Hyrum Smith
Samuel H. Smith

[devils_ham]

I'm curious, why are LDS members posting on this forum.....trying to defend their gospel..?
Its confusing as to what their motive is. Why they have the official LDS.org website to do this...fairmormon, etc, etc.

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by devils_ham

I'm curious, why are LDS members posting on this forum.....trying to defend their gospel..?
Its confusing as to what their motive is. Why they have the official LDS.org website to do this...fairmormon, etc, etc.

This board is "Mormonism". The question might should be--why are non-Mormons here?

[devils_ham]

Well this is the Walter Martin Ministries forum.....its an Evangelical Christian website.....

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by devils_ham

Well this is the Walter Martin Ministries forum.....its an Evangelical Christian website.....

Are you claiming Mormonism is Evangelical Christian?

[DrDavidT]

It is so funny that dberrie keeps posting the same witness statements as if no one has seen them in the first thousand times he posted them.

He doesn't get it, those witness statements are not evidence and mean little to nothing especially since it was family members and many people who left the cult later in life. those statements do not prove the golden plates existed nor will the repeated posting f them do anything but show that the mormons cannot prove what they claim is the foundation of their faith

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by DrDavidT

It is so funny that dberrie keeps posting the same witness statements as if no one has seen them in the first thousand times he posted them.

He doesn't get it, those witness statements are not evidence ...

Witness statements are always considered evidence in any court of law. The entire Biblical text is composed of witness testimony.

those statements do not prove the golden plates existed

Proof is only valid in the minds of those who are willing to accept it. And I agree with you--it is not proof--but rather, evidence.

nor will the repeated posting f them do anything but show that the mormons cannot prove what they claim is the foundation of their faith

The Biblical text claims the apostles and prophets form the foundation:

Ephesians 2:20--King James Version (KJV)
20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;

The LDS church is led by living, mortal apostles and prophets. Is yours?