Did smith make the whole thing up?

[Christian]

NOT ONE WORD of the book of mormon can be verified by anyone anywhere. NOT ONE WORD was translated by anyone OTHER than joe smith himself, there are no original-language texts for verifying that smith really TRANSLATED anythng at all. He merely SAID things; he didn't translate anything at all!

Think you can prove me wrong in this?

I would be interested in seeing your EVIDENCE.

Not nonsense about you having your 'tummy tuck,' or your 'feelings' or opinions, but VERIFIABLE EVIDENCE.

So far there appears to BE NONE​

[DrDavidT]

Originally Posted by Christian

NOT ONE WORD of the book of mormon can be verified by anyone anywhere. NOT ONE WORD was translated by anyone OTHER than joe smith himself, there are no original-language texts for verifying that smith really TRANSLATED anythng at all. He merely SAID things; he didn't translate anything at all!

Think you can prove me wrong in this?

I would be interested in seeing your EVIDENCE.

Not nonsense about you having your 'tummy tuck,' or your 'feelings' or opinions, but VERIFIABLE EVIDENCE.

So far there appears to BE NONE​

Of course he made it up. He saw an opportunity to get rich by conning people through religion. Unfortunately for him he was killed long before he could realize this objective and killed because of sinful acts not because he was godly. Smith was nothing but a con man even in his religious ventures.

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by DrDavidT

Of course he made it up. He saw an opportunity to get rich by conning people through religion. Unfortunately for him he was killed long before he could realize this objective and killed because of sinful acts not because he was godly. Smith was nothing but a con man even in his religious ventures.

A couple of thoughts here:

1) The LDS seem to have prospered mightily since the death of Joseph Smith.

2) The tree is known by it's fruit--and the fruit of the LDS have been highly praised by the world, in some areas.

Meanwhile--over 6,000 LDS are in Louisiana for the cleanup.

[Christian]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

A couple of thoughts here:

1) The LDS seem to have prospered mightily since the death of Joseph Smith.

2) The tree is known by it's fruit--and the fruit of the LDS have been highly praised by the world, in some areas.

Meanwhile--over 6,000 LDS are in Louisiana for the cleanup.

Yes, by WORLDLY standards the mormons are doing just fine. BUT BY GODLY standars, your fruit is rotten.

Sending people to Hell by leading them with false gospels that change with the wind.
Following false gods and false christs, and false prophets

Sorry, but the lds folks who LIVE IN Louisiana HAVE to clean up their homes. Floods are like that.

Who knows HOW MANY CHRISTIANS are there, with food, clothing, blankets, medicine, etc?

My posted position is STILL COMPLETELY TRUE. BTW, there are muslims, and atheists in Louisiana too, for the clean-up. Yours is not the only heathen group there.

The OP (which you have failed to address:

Originally Posted by Christian [IMG]http://www.waltermartin.com/forums/images/****ons/viewpost-right.png[/IMG]
NOT ONE WORD of the book of mormon can be verified by anyone anywhere. NOT ONE WORD was translated by anyone OTHER than joe smith himself, there are no original-language texts for verifying that smith really TRANSLATED anythng at all. He merely SAID things; he didn't translate anything at all!

Think you can prove me wrong in this?

I would be interested in seeing your EVIDENCE.

Not nonsense about you having your 'tummy tuck,' or your 'feelings' or opinions, but VERIFIABLE EVIDENCE.

So far there appears to BE NONE​

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by Christian

Yes, by WORLDLY standards the mormons are doing just fine. BUT BY GODLY standars, your fruit is rotten.

Then perhaps you would like to inform us what is found in the Biblical NT, as far as salvational doctrines go--that is not found in the LDS church?

James 2:24---King James Version (KJV)
24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

[Christian]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

Then perhaps you would like to inform us what is found in the Biblical NT, as far as salvational doctrines go--that is not found in the LDS church?

James 2:24---King James Version (KJV)
24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

STILL running from the OP I see. . .can't face it? Here it is:

Originally Posted by Christian
NOT ONE WORD of the book of mormon can be verified by anyone anywhere. NOT ONE WORD was translated by anyone OTHER than joe smith himself, there are no original-language texts for verifying that smith really TRANSLATED anythng at all. He merely SAID things; he didn't translate anything at all!

Think you can prove me wrong in this?

I would be interested in seeing your EVIDENCE.

Not nonsense about you having your 'tummy tuck,' or your 'feelings' or opinions, but VERIFIABLE EVIDENCE.

So far there appears to BE NONE​

Your nonsense about your lack of knowledge of what 'faith only' is about has nothing to do with anything here, so quit your whining about it and DEAL with the OP instead of running away from it. By running away from it, failing to address it truthfully, you only show the pathetic falsehood of your religion.

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post Then perhaps you would like to inform us what is found in the Biblical NT, as far as salvational doctrines go--that is not found in the LDS church?

James 2:24---King James Version (KJV)
24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

Originally Posted by Christian

Your nonsense about your lack of knowledge of what 'faith only' is about has nothing to do with anything here,

I thought you would like to answer to your accusation:

Originally Posted by Christian View Post Yes, by WORLDLY standards the mormons are doing just fine. BUT BY GODLY standars, your fruit is rotten.

Again-- perhaps you would like to inform us what is found in the Biblical NT, as far as salvational doctrines go--that is not found in the LDS church?

Here is my response as to what I find in the Biblical text:

James 2:24---King James Version (KJV)
24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

[Christian]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

I thought you would like to answer to your accusation:



Again-- perhaps you would like to inform us what is found in the Biblical NT, as far as salvational doctrines go--that is not found in the LDS church?

Here is my response as to what I find in the Biblical text:

James 2:24---King James Version (KJV)
24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

Let's see now. . .beyond you RUNNING AWAY FROM THE OP that you obviously are unable to handle. . .

The OP:

NOT ONE WORD of the book of mormon can be verified by anyone anywhere. NOT ONE WORD was translated by anyone OTHER than joe smith himself, there are no original-language texts for verifying that smith really TRANSLATED anythng at all. He merely SAID things; he didn't translate anything at all!

Think you can prove me wrong in this?

I would be interested in seeing your EVIDENCE.

Not nonsense about you having your 'tummy tuck,' or your 'feelings' or opinions, but VERIFIABLE EVIDENCE.

So far there appears to BE NONE​

STILL cannot support your 'prophet' whose prophesies failed, and who tried to shoot his way out of jail with EVIDENCE?

YOU CANNOT DEAL WITH the OP?

HERE is the OP. . .AGAIN:

NOT ONE WORD of the book of mormon can be verified by anyone anywhere. NOT ONE WORD was translated by anyone OTHER than joe smith himself, there are no original-language texts for verifying that smith really TRANSLATED anythng at all. He merely SAID things; he didn't translate anything at all!

Think you can prove me wrong in this?

I would be interested in seeing your EVIDENCE.

Not nonsense about you having your 'tummy tuck,' or your 'feelings' or opinions, but VERIFIABLE EVIDENCE.

So far there appears to BE NONE​

So what do YOU have to offer in answer to the OP? NOTHING, OBVIOUSLY. You run away from it like a scared little girlie (as someone once said. . .)

Are you REALLY so afraid that the TRUTH will expose your false prophet?

[Phoenix]

Originally Posted by Christian

Did smith make the whole thing up?

Maybe in your dreams he did.

You are so terrified of the possibility that he didn't make the whole thing up, that you desperately lash out at people whom you don't even know. You call them names. You insult them. You break half the rules that Jesus wants His disciples to obey. That's how scared you are of the possibility that Joseph Smith couldn't have made the whole thing up. It's a pretty pathetic thing to watch: the desperate, childish outbursts, in a public forum.

NOT ONE WORD of the book of mormon can be verified by anyone anywhere.

Here are some words from the Book of Mormon:
"Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the living God." (Mormon, chapter 5)

....and you're saying that there's no one, anywhere who can verify those words??

That's too bad, that you don't think you are able to verify those words. It's sad, really, when in reality, millions and millions of Christians, who aren't Christian in screen-name only, can and do verify that Jesus is the Christ and is the Son of God.
And millions of Christians have been verifying it over many centuries.

NOT ONE WORD was translated by anyone OTHER than joe smith himself

So you're claiming that Joseph Smith, all by himself, translated over 500 pages of text in a few short months' time. Do you think you could do something like that, without help from anyone else, and without any electronic devices?

Or was Joseph Smith able to do something that you admit you are UNable to do?

He merely SAID things; he didn't translate anything at all!

But you said that NOT ONE WORD was translated by anyone OTHER than joe smith himself. Now you say he DIDN"T translate anything. Aren't you contradicting yourself?

Think you can prove me wrong in this?

I think you're proving yourself wrong.

I would be interested in seeing your EVIDENCE.

His scribes and his wife were eyewitnesses. You were not. They say he translated the Book of Mormon. They never changed their testimony of that. Their testimony carries a lot more weight than the childish rantings of some anonymous nobody on the internet--who wasn't there, who wasn't a witness.

Not nonsense about you having your 'tummy tuck,' or your 'feelings' or opinions, but VERIFIABLE EVIDENCE.

The finished product is verifiable evidence. The testimonies of the eyewitnesses are verifiable evidence, since their statements can be verified as actually coming from them. The fact that you are unable to do what Joseph Smith did, is evidence that he had abilities that you can only dream of.

[Christian]

phoenix posted:

Originally Posted by Christian
Did smith make the whole thing up?

Maybe in your dreams he did.

You are so terrified of the possibility that he didn't make the whole thing up, that you desperately lash out at people whom you don't even know. You call them names. You insult them. You break half the rules that Jesus wants His disciples to obey. That's how scared you are of the possibility that Joseph Smith couldn't have made the whole thing up. It's a pretty pathetic thing to watch: the desperate, childish outbursts, in a public forum.

You sound just like the gay community. . .if you show them to be flawed in their reasoning, you must somehow be terrified of them.

What makes you think anything your religion has to offer is worth being 'terrified' of? I know, in the past your religion did things like the mountain meadows m***acre, and joe smith trying to shoot people as he tried to escape jail, but what violence should we fear today?

My God, the God of the BIBLE protects me from the evil your religion offers, forgives ALL of my sins, so what's to fear?

Here are some words from the Book of Mormon:
"Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the living God." (Mormon, chapter 5)

Once again, text without context is only cheap pretext. I guess that is all you have to offer, stuff that your false prophet stole from the king james translation of the Bible.

....and you're saying that there's no one, anywhere who can verify those words??

No, that's not what I am saying. I stated very clearly that NOT ONE SINGLE EVENT, PERSON, or PLACE that joe smith made up in his book of mormon can be verified as ever existing in the real world (no 'spirit-brother-of-satan' jesus, no nephites, none of the junk he made up at all).

And you still cannot deal with the fact that all you have is a conman with his face in a hat, pretending to "translate" from a peepstone. NOT ONE WORD of your bom was translated by ANYONE ELSE.

That's too bad, that you don't think you are able to verify those words. It's sad, really, when in reality, millions and millions of Christians, who aren't Christian in screen-name only, can and do verify that Jesus is the Christ and is the Son of God.
And millions of Christians have been verifying it over many centuries.

You still have nothing but text taken from the BIBLE, not joe smith's own stuff, text taken OUT OF ITS CONTEXT, making your PRETEXT look stupid.

NOT ONE WORD was translated by anyone OTHER than joe smith himself

So you're claiming that Joseph Smith, all by himself, translated over 500 pages of text in a few short months' time. Do you think you could do something like that, without help from anyone else, and without any electronic devices?

No, joe didn't translate anything at all. He stuck his face into a hat with a rock and SPOKE, told stories. ANYONE could do that.

Or was Joseph Smith able to do something that you admit you are UNable to do?

YOU made that claim, I did not. I could EASILY tell stories like that.

He merely SAID things; he didn't translate anything at all!

But you said that NOT ONE WORD was translated by anyone OTHER than joe smith himself. Now you say he DIDN"T translate anything. Aren't you contradicting yourself?

No contradiction at all. Joey told fairytales. NOBODY ever translated any of joe's junk at all. You may try to TWIST my words to make them sound like I say things I never said, but then that is you telling lies, not me saying what you claim.

Think you can prove me wrong in this?

I think you're proving yourself wrong.

Then you are intentionally ignorant of the TRUTH. The TRUTH is that joe smith CLAIMED TO TRANSLATE by looking into his hat at a rock when IN REALITY all he did was tell fairytales.

His scribes and his wife were eyewitnesses. You were not.

You were not either. And joey and his gang of miscreants don't count for much at all.

They say he translated the Book of Mormon. They never changed their testimony of that. Their testimony carries a lot more weight than the childish rantings of some anonymous nobody on the internet--who wasn't there, who wasn't a witness.

I would be interested in seeing your EVIDENCE.

The finished product is verifiable evidence.

COMPLETELY FALSE. NOT ONE PERSON, PLACE OR EVENT IN THE BOM can be verified as EVER EXISTING in REAL LIFE. You have NO EVIDENCE AT ALL. The Qur'an, and the Bhavad Gita (sp?) are just as 'well' written. As reading material, your bom is dry, not inspiring at all.

And the pretended 'test' of its veracity, that you read it and pray to God to see if it is true or not is phoney. MANY of us did that and got EXACTLY THE OPPOSITE answer that you claim you got.

Do you REALLY BELIEVE in a god that contradicts itself?

They testimony of the eyewitnesses is verifiable evidence, since their statements can be verified as actually coming from them. The fact that you are unable to do what Joseph Smith did, is evidence that he had abilities that you can only dream of.

Just like many statements by white supremecists can be 'verified' in the same way.No, your supposed 'evidence' is still really evidence of nothing. Joey and his little gang of cronies played their stupid game, but in reality it was nothing more than that. . .they just played "let's play religion" together.

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by Christian

Are you REALLY so afraid that the TRUTH will expose your false prophet?[/COLOR]

The truth is--the Book of Mormon is a reality--and the testimony of the witnesses:

Testimony of Three Witnesses

Be it known unto all nations, kindreds, tongues, and people, unto whom this work shall come: That we, through the grace of God the Father, and our Lord Jesus Christ, have seen the plates which contain this record, which is a record of the people of Nephi, and also of the Lamanites, their brethren, and also of the people of Jared, who came from the tower of which hath been spoken. And we also know that they have been translated by the gift and power of God, for his voice hath declared it unto us; wherefore we know of a surety that the work is true. And we also testify that we have seen the engravings which are upon the plates; and they have been shown unto us by the power of God, and not of man. And we declare with words of soberness, that an angel of God came down from heaven, and he brought and laid before our eyes, that we beheld and saw the plates, and the engravings thereon; and we know that it is by the grace of God the Father, and our Lord Jesus Christ, that we beheld and bear record that these things are true. And it is marvelous in our eyes. Nevertheless, the voice of the Lord commanded us that we should bear record of it; wherefore, to be obedient unto the commandments of God, we bear testimony of these things. And we know that if we are faithful in Christ, we shall rid our garments of the blood of all men, and be found spotless before the judgment-seat of Christ, and shall dwell with him eternally in the heavens. And the honor be to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Ghost, which is one God. Amen.


Testimony of Eight Witnesses

Be it known unto all nations, kindreds, tongues, and people, unto whom this work shall come: That Joseph Smith, Jun., the translator of this work, has shown unto us the plates of which hath been spoken, which have the appearance of gold; and as many of the leaves as the said Smith has translated we did handle with our hands; and we also saw the engravings thereon, all of which has the appearance of ancient work, and of curious workmanship. And this we bear record with words of soberness, that the said Smith has shown unto us, for we have seen and hefted, and know of a surety that the said Smith has got the plates of which we have spoken. And we give our names unto the world, to witness unto the world that which we have seen. And we lie not, God bearing witness of it.

Christian Whitmer
Jacob Whitmer
Peter Whitmer, Jun.
John Whitmer
Hiram Page
Joseph Smith, Sen.
Hyrum Smith
Samuel H. Smith

Christian--that is the pattern of the way God uses whenever He reveals Himself to mankind. That was the pattern we see in Moses, The NT apostles--and Joseph Smith:

1) He leaves a behind written record of heavenly manifestations--with witnesses

2) God reveals things that have never before been expounded upon to mankind in general--as revelation to mankind.

So--please remember the testimony of the NT writers:

Acts 3:21--King James Version (KJV)
21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of res***ution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.

[MickeyS]

Originally Posted by Christian

phoenix posted:


Maybe in your dreams he did.

You are so terrified of the possibility that he didn't make the whole thing up, that you desperately lash out at people whom you don't even know. You call them names. You insult them. You break half the rules that Jesus wants His disciples to obey. That's how scared you are of the possibility that Joseph Smith couldn't have made the whole thing up. It's a pretty pathetic thing to watch: the desperate, childish outbursts, in a public forum.

You sound just like the gay community. . .if you show them to be flawed in their reasoning, you must somehow be terrified of them.

What makes you think anything your religion has to offer is worth being 'terrified' of? I know, in the past your religion did things like the mountain meadows m***acre, and joe smith trying to shoot people as he tried to escape jail, but what violence should we fear today?

My God, the God of the BIBLE protects me from the evil your religion offers, forgives ALL of my sins, so what's to fear?

Here are some words from the Book of Mormon:
"Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the living God." (Mormon, chapter 5)

Once again, text without context is only cheap pretext. I guess that is all you have to offer, stuff that your false prophet stole from the king james translation of the Bible.

....and you're saying that there's no one, anywhere who can verify those words??

No, that's not what I am saying. I stated very clearly that NOT ONE SINGLE EVENT, PERSON, or PLACE that joe smith made up in his book of mormon can be verified as ever existing in the real world (no 'spirit-brother-of-satan' jesus, no nephites, none of the junk he made up at all).

And you still cannot deal with the fact that all you have is a conman with his face in a hat, pretending to "translate" from a peepstone. NOT ONE WORD of your bom was translated by ANYONE ELSE.

That's too bad, that you don't think you are able to verify those words. It's sad, really, when in reality, millions and millions of Christians, who aren't Christian in screen-name only, can and do verify that Jesus is the Christ and is the Son of God.
And millions of Christians have been verifying it over many centuries.

You still have nothing but text taken from the BIBLE, not joe smith's own stuff, text taken OUT OF ITS CONTEXT, making your PRETEXT look stupid.



So you're claiming that Joseph Smith, all by himself, translated over 500 pages of text in a few short months' time. Do you think you could do something like that, without help from anyone else, and without any electronic devices?

No, joe didn't translate anything at all. He stuck his face into a hat with a rock and SPOKE, told stories. ANYONE could do that.

Or was Joseph Smith able to do something that you admit you are UNable to do?

YOU made that claim, I did not. I could EASILY tell stories like that.



But you said that NOT ONE WORD was translated by anyone OTHER than joe smith himself. Now you say he DIDN"T translate anything. Aren't you contradicting yourself?

No contradiction at all. Joey told fairytales. NOBODY ever translated any of joe's junk at all. You may try to TWIST my words to make them sound like I say things I never said, but then that is you telling lies, not me saying what you claim.



I think you're proving yourself wrong.

Then you are intentionally ignorant of the TRUTH. The TRUTH is that joe smith CLAIMED TO TRANSLATE by looking into his hat at a rock when IN REALITY all he did was tell fairytales.

His scribes and his wife were eyewitnesses. You were not.

You were not either. And joey and his gang of miscreants don't count for much at all.

They say he translated the Book of Mormon. They never changed their testimony of that. Their testimony carries a lot more weight than the childish rantings of some anonymous nobody on the internet--who wasn't there, who wasn't a witness.



The finished product is verifiable evidence.

COMPLETELY FALSE. NOT ONE PERSON, PLACE OR EVENT IN THE BOM can be verified as EVER EXISTING in REAL LIFE. You have NO EVIDENCE AT ALL. The Qur'an, and the Bhavad Gita (sp?) are just as 'well' written. As reading material, your bom is dry, not inspiring at all.

And the pretended 'test' of its veracity, that you read it and pray to God to see if it is true or not is phoney. MANY of us did that and got EXACTLY THE OPPOSITE answer that you claim you got.

Do you REALLY BELIEVE in a god that contradicts itself?

They testimony of the eyewitnesses is verifiable evidence, since their statements can be verified as actually coming from them. The fact that you are unable to do what Joseph Smith did, is evidence that he had abilities that you can only dream of.

Just like many statements by white supremecists can be 'verified' in the same way.No, your supposed 'evidence' is still really evidence of nothing. Joey and his little gang of cronies played their stupid game, but in reality it was nothing more than that. . .they just played "let's play religion" together.

Maybe not "terrified", but definitely OBSESSED. Which is obvious by popping my head in here and seeing the same repe***ive ramble that has no meaning or end. It doesn't seem healthy.

Btw....nobody can "prove" the Bible is ABSOLUTELY the Word of God. I know it is, but not because it was proven to be so by historical facts or what not. That only proves that some of the people and places in the Bible actually existed. It doesn't prove that it's the Word of God. You rely on accounts by long dead individuals handed down through centuries and rewritten numerous times. And you seem to know for sure the Bible is the Word of God, how exactly? Since you don't actually verify it with God (which would make the most sense to me) Can you prove to an unbeliever like an atheist, who is dead set against it being the Word of God, that the Bible is in fact the Word of God?? Nope... But those are your expectations, for us to prove, to you, an unbeliever, that the Book of Mormon is the Word of God.

Also, just because you can't find absolute definite physical proof of the places in the Book of Mormon, doesn't mean they don't exist either. There are places in the Bible that are still questionable and record keeping civilizations have been LIVING in those areas consistently since the Bible was written. The civilizations in the Book of Mormon that were keeping record, were lost. Hundreds of years later the areas began to be populated by modern, record keeping people's again. How do you really expect everything to be easily identified when nobody's lived in those areas for centuries. I mean really? That's not proof those places didn't exist. It's just not. But it's funny that you hold on to it as such.

But it's interesting to see you still running in the same circles. Like I said, maybe not terrified, but definitely obsessed. I wonder why that is?

Let the highly confusing, multi colored, meaningless insults and circular running commence. I honestly couldn't care less what you have to say. Much like you couldn't care less about, well, anything I have to say. But it still won't stop you from spewing venom. Have fun with that I won't respond because honestly, I can't keep track of your replies, they're a hot mess. You'd think after all the time you've spent here, you'd have figured out how to pen a cohesive response.

[Christian]

Mickey posted:

Originally Posted by Christian [IMG]http://www.waltermartin.com/forums/images/****ons/viewpost-right.png[/IMG]
phoenix posted:


Maybe in your dreams he did.

You are so terrified of the possibility that he didn't make the whole thing up, that you desperately lash out at people whom you don't even know. You call them names. You insult them. You break half the rules that Jesus wants His disciples to obey. That's how scared you are of the possibility that Joseph Smith couldn't have made the whole thing up. It's a pretty pathetic thing to watch: the desperate, childish outbursts, in a public forum.

You sound just like the gay community. . .if you show them to be flawed in their reasoning, you must somehow be terrified of them.

What makes you think anything your religion has to offer is worth being 'terrified' of? I know, in the past your religion did things like the mountain meadows m***acre, and joe smith trying to shoot people as he tried to escape jail, but what violence should we fear today?

My God, the God of the BIBLE protects me from the evil your religion offers, forgives ALL of my sins, so what's to fear?

...

And you still cannot deal with the fact that all you have is a conman with his face in a hat, pretending to "translate" from a peepstone. NOT ONE WORD of your bom was translated by ANYONE ELSE.

You still have nothing but text taken from the BIBLE, not joe smith's own stuff, text taken OUT OF ITS CONTEXT, making your PRETEXT look stupid.

So you're claiming that Joseph Smith, all by himself, translated over 500 pages of text in a few short months' time. Do you think you could do something like that, without help from anyone else, and without any electronic devices?

No, joe didn't translate anything at all. He stuck his face into a hat with a rock and SPOKE, told stories. ANYONE could do that.

Or was Joseph Smith able to do something that you admit you are UNable to do?

YOU made that claim, I did not. I could EASILY tell stories like that.

But you said that NOT ONE WORD was translated by anyone OTHER than joe smith himself. Now you say he DIDN"T translate anything. Aren't you contradicting yourself?

No contradiction at all. Joey told fairytales. NOBODY ever translated any of joe's junk at all. You may try to TWIST my words to make them sound like I say things I never said, but then that is you telling lies, not me saying what you claim.

I think you're proving yourself wrong.

Then you are intentionally ignorant of the TRUTH. The TRUTH is that joe smith CLAIMED TO TRANSLATE by looking into his hat at a rock when IN REALITY all he did was tell fairytales.

His scribes and his wife were eyewitnesses. You were not.

You were not either. And joey and his gang of miscreants don't count for much at all.

The finished product is verifiable evidence.

COMPLETELY FALSE. NOT ONE PERSON, PLACE OR EVENT IN THE BOM can be verified as EVER EXISTING in REAL LIFE. You have NO EVIDENCE AT ALL. The Qur'an, and the Bhavad Gita (sp?) are just as 'well' written. As reading material, your bom is dry, not inspiring at all.

And the pretended 'test' of its veracity, that you read it and pray to God to see if it is true or not is phoney. MANY of us did that and got EXACTLY THE OPPOSITE answer that you claim you got.

Do you REALLY BELIEVE in a god that contradicts itself?

They testimony of the eyewitnesses is verifiable evidence, since their statements can be verified as actually coming from them. The fact that you are unable to do what Joseph Smith did, is evidence that he had abilities that you can only dream of.

Just like many statements by white supremecists can be 'verified' in the same way.No, your supposed 'evidence' is still really evidence of nothing. Joey and his little gang of cronies played their stupid game, but in reality it was nothing more than that. . .they just played "let's play religion" together.

Maybe not "terrified", but definitely OBSESSED. Which is obvious by popping my head in here and seeing the same repe***ive ramble that has no meaning or end. It doesn't seem healthy.

Obsessed? THIS IS after all the lds forum in which we critique the mormon religion. Since the mormon religion hasn't changed and YOU keep making claims like you made above, I DO RESPOND to your posts.

Btw....nobody can "prove" the Bible is ABSOLUTELY the Word of God.

NOBODY CAN "PROVE" ANYTHING to a person who is not willing to face reality. I can hold up a bright light to you, and you can pretend it is a goat or ignore it. The EVIDENCE for the Bible is overwhelming, BOTH SPIRITUAL AND PHYSICAL EVIDENCE..

I know it is, but not because it was proven to be so by historical facts or what not. That only proves that some of the people and places in the Bible actually existed.

Of course YOU HAVE NO SUCH PROOF that any person, place, or event joe smith made up ever actually existed.

It doesn't prove that it's the Word of God.

I never said it did. IT DOES SHOW the existance of some of the persons, places, and events were real. Joey smith's fairytales don't have any of that.

You rely on accounts by long dead individuals handed down through centuries and rewritten numerous times.

I rely on the BIBLE, the WORD OF GOD that has never been 'rewritten' at all. We still have over 5,200 partials and texts that date back to the first century to compare our translations to.

Of course joe smith's junk has NONE to compare to. All YOU have is accounts by a long-dead conman handed down and rewritten numerous times with over 4,000 CHANGES in it.

And you seem to know for sure the Bible is the Word of God, how exactly?

A whole TON of evidence and substance (which the BIBLE describes as "FAITH":

Heb 11:1-3
Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. 2 For by it the elders obtained a good testimony.
3 By faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that the things which are seen were not made of things which are visible.
NKJV


Faith is NOT just a 'tummy feeling' combined with a wish, which seems to be all YOU have. GENUINE faith is SUBSTANCE AND EVIDENCE as God has said in the p***age above.

Since you don't actually verify it with God (which would make the most sense to me)

Who says I haven't 'verified it with God?' Do you make make these horse-apples up on your own?

Can you prove to an unbeliever like an atheist, who is dead set against it being the Word of God, that the Bible is in fact the Word of God?? Nope... But those are your expectations, for us to prove, to you, an unbeliever, that the Book of Mormon is the Word of God.

To GOD I am an ABSOLUTE BELIEVER. To joe smith, you, white supremecists, jw's, and muslims, I am NOT a believer in your false gods or false christs.

Also, just because you can't find absolute definite physical proof of the places in the Book of Mormon, doesn't mean they don't exist either.

Your argument is from absence, a logical fallacy. You cannot prove that joe smith didn't wear pink underwear either since no evidence exists that he did not. Your argument from absence is junk, nothing more.

There are places in the Bible that are still questionable and record keeping civilizations have been LIVING in those areas consistently since the Bible was written.

And yet MANY of those places keep 'popping up,' being found, and being proven to have existed.

For joe smith's stuff. . .NONE have been found.

The civilizations in the Book of Mormon that were keeping record, were lost. Hundreds of years later the areas began to be populated by modern, record keeping people's again. How do you really expect everything to be easily identified when nobody's lived in those areas for centuries. I mean really? That's not proof those places didn't exist. It's just not. But it's funny that you hold on to it as such.

Supposedly millions of people never left coins, pottery with writing on it, etc AT ALL? How stupid is that? (how stupid IS THERE?)

But it's interesting to see you still running in the same circles. Like I said, maybe not terrified, but definitely obsessed. I wonder why that is

Because I still see the mormon cult leading people to Hell. For the same reason that Jesus, Paul, and others consistantly spoke against the pharisees and sadducees that perverted what GOD had said.

It's hard to pen a cohesive response to your rambling whines, but I'll keep trying.

Sorry if the TRUTH hurts you. I pray to God for your soul. If you want to 'give up' and quit, that is up to you. I'll keep responding to your nonsense as long as I can.

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by Christian

We still have over 5,200 partials and texts that date back to the first century to compare our translations to.

Perhaps you would like to present some evidence of those 5200 "first century" partial m****cripts?

[Christian]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

Perhaps you would like to present some evidence of those 5200 "first century" partial m****cripts?

Try 5,200 partials and m****cripts SOME of which date back to the end of the first century.

BUT NOT ONE M****CRIPT AT ALL of any of joey smith's junk from which he claimed to have looked at a rock inside his hat to 'translate.'

NOT ONE WORD of the bom can be CHECKED FOR ACCURATE TRANSLATION, and it has over 4,000 differences between the original and now, including changed words, phrases and entire paragraphs.

Doesn't it bother you JUST A LITTLE BIT that you have nothing but the word of joe smith that ANY of the bom people, places, or events ever EXISTED AT ALL? Just the word of a liar, common criminal who tried to shoot people to death on his attempt to escape from jail?

Tsk, tsk, tsk. . .

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by Christian View Post We still have over 5,200 partials and texts that date back to the first century to compare our translations to.

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post Perhaps you would like to present some evidence of those 5200 "first century" partial m****cripts?

Originally Posted by Christian

[COLOR=#0000ff]Try 5,200 partials and m****cripts SOME of which date back to the end of the first century.

Then perhaps you would give us the "some" first century m****cripts.

BUT NOT ONE M****CRIPT AT ALL of any of joey smith's junk from which he claimed to have looked at a rock inside his hat to 'translate.'

NOT ONE WORD of the bom can be CHECKED FOR ACCURATE TRANSLATION, and it has over 4,000 differences between the original and now, including changed words, phrases and entire paragraphs.

You might want to check that against the facts.

There is still about 25% extant of the original m****cript of the Book of Mormon translation--and the whole of the printer's copy.

[Christian]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

There is still about 25% extant of the original m****cript of the Book of Mormon translation--and the whole of the printer's copy.

NOT ONE WORD of the original m****cript of the book of mormon exists outside of joe smith's imagination and his cronies lies exists anywhere.

ALL YOU HAVE IS JOE'S SUPPOSED "translation" MADE BY STARRING AT A ROCK IN HIS HAT AND TELLING FAIRYTALES.

Yep, joey just made it all up, stealing some of it from the kjv Bible, some from other sources (perhaps), and telling fairytales. AND YOU CANNOT DEMONSTRATE OTHERWISE.

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post There is still about 25% extant of the original m****cript of the Book of Mormon translation--and the whole of the printer's copy.

Originally Posted by Christian

NOT ONE WORD of the original m****cript of the book of mormon exists outside of joe smith's imagination and his cronies lies exists anywhere.

Taint so!! retorts are neither convincing nor compelling.

As I stated--there is still about 25% of the original m****cript of the Book of Mormon that is extant.

What is your evidence otherwise?

Joseph Smith placed the original m****cript in the cornerstone of the Nauvoo temple--which was later recovered, although the weathering eroded about 75% of it away.

100% of the printer's copy is still extant--and in good condition.

[Christian]

berry posted:

Taint so!! retorts are neither convincing nor compelling.

As I stated--there is still about 25% of the original m****cript of the Book of Mormon that is extant.

Those are ONLY the pretended 'translations.' The ORIGINAL LANGUAGE M****CRIPTS (the supposed gold plates) don't exist ANYWHERE. NEITHER DO COPIES OF THEM EXIST ANYWHERE.

What is your evidence otherwise?

The FACT THAT YOU CANNOT PRODUCE THEM.

Joseph Smith placed the original m****cript in the cornerstone of the Nauvoo temple--which was later recovered, although the weathering eroded about 75% of it away.

100% of the printer's copy is still extant--and in good condition.

I own a copy of it. There are over 4,000 CHANGES that have been made since it was published. . .BUT IT IS ONLY JOE'S IMAGINED "TRANSLATION," and his ability to 'translate' anything from the rocks in his head or his hat CANNOT BE VERIFIED BY ANY MEANS AT ALL.

You are floundering, berrie. . .

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by Christian

Those are ONLY the pretended 'translations.' The ORIGINAL LANGUAGE M****CRIPTS (the supposed gold plates) don't exist ANYWHERE.

Moving the goalposts when you get burned is a common tactic--but cyberspace does not forget:

Originally Posted by Christian View Post NOT ONE WORD of the original m****cript of the book of mormon exists outside of joe smith's imagination and his cronies lies exists anywhere.

Again:

As I stated--there is still about 25% of the original translation m****cript of the Book of Mormon that is extant.

What is your evidence otherwise?

Joseph Smith placed the original m****cript in the cornerstone of the Nauvoo temple--which was later recovered, although the weathering eroded about 75% of it away.

100% of the printer's copy is still extant--and in good condition.

Those m****cripts can be "produced"--they are still extant. Today. Now.

Which means your original statement cannot be verified as truth.

[Phoenix]

Originally Posted by Christian

You sound just like the gay community. . .if you show them to be flawed in their reasoning, you must somehow be terrified of them.

Who posted the following?
"You run away from it like a scared little girlie (as someone once said. ."


Was that a gay person who said that?

[Phoenix]

Originally Posted by Christian

You sound just like the gay community. . .if you show them to be flawed in their reasoning, you must somehow be terrified of them.

Who posted the following?
"You run away from it like a scared little girlie (as someone once said. ."


Was that a gay person who said that?

[Christian]

berrie posted:

Originally Posted by Christian [IMG]http://www.waltermartin.com/forums/images/****ons/viewpost-right.png[/IMG]

Those are ONLY the pretended 'translations.' The ORIGINAL LANGUAGE M****CRIPTS (the supposed gold plates) don't exist ANYWHERE.

Moving the goalposts when you get burned is a common tactic--but cyberspace does not forget

True. And as you are trying to move them now, we DO notice.

Again:

As I stated--there is still about 25% of the original translation m****cript of the Book of Mormon that is extant.

What is your evidence otherwise?

Joseph Smith placed the original m****cript in the cornerstone of the Nauvoo temple--which was later recovered, although the weathering eroded about 75% of it away.

100% of the printer's copy is still extant--and in good condition.

Whooopee! copies of the so-called "translation" exist. Of course the OP has to do with the veracity of the comparison of joe smith's supposed "translating' by peeping at his peepstone in his hat, the ability to COMPARE the original language to joe's supposed "translation" STILL REMAINS unanswered and unanswuerable by you.
You still cannot demonstrate IN ANY REAL WAY that joe smith didn't just make a story up from his own corrupt imagination when he told the stories to his 'scribes' (usually ollie cowdery if I remember correctly).

Those m****cripts can be "produced"--they are still extant. Today. Now.

The m****cripts of the pretended "translations" are the WRONG M****CRIPTS. You are trying to move the goalposts again. . .STILL a stupid tactic.

Which means your original statement cannot be verified as truth.

​Only if we close our eyes and PRETEND as you seem wont to do.

Are you going to try to 'move the goalposts' yet again?

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by Christian

[COLOR=#0000ff][COLOR=#0000cd]Whooopee! copies of the so-called "translation" exist.

It's the ORIGINAL translation which 25% still exists.

[Christian]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

It's the ORIGINAL translation which 25% still exists.

But NONE of the original-LANGUAGE text to compare his so-called "peepstone-in-the-hat translation" to.

Yes, we know. The ORIGINAL translation texts for the NIV, NKJV and others are likely still ALL there. BIG DEAL (NOT)!

WHAT DO YOU HAVE TO SHOW THAT JOE SMITH 'TRANSLATED' ANYTHING ACCURATELY OR AT ALL? NADA. ZILCH. NOTHING. Of course!

ALL you have is his supposed "translation" that has been CHANGED over 4,000 times since then.