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Thread: Faith alone theology

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    Default Faith alone theology

    The LDS reject faith alone theology--and it is found only once in any translation the faith alone would depend on:

    James 2:24---New American Standard Bible (NASB)
    24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.

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    Bible does teach it is by faith alone (Rom. 3:28; 4:1-5)

    To the non-LDS people looking thru this forum.....
    What James 2:24 is saying is this: If a person says he has faith, but he gives no outward evidence of that faith through righteous works, his faith will not justify him.
    We are not saved by a profession of faith or by a claim to faith. That faith has to be genuine before the merit of Christ will be imputed to anybody.
    You canít just say you have faith. True faith will absolutely and necessarily yield the fruits of obedience and the works of righteousness.
    Works donít add to that personís justification at the judgment seat of God. But they do justify his claim to faith before the eyes of man.
    James is saying, not that a man is justified before God by his works, but that his claim to faith is shown to be genuine as he demonstrates the evidence of that claim of faith through his works.

    Learn more here: http://www.mrm.org/justification-james

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    Quote Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
    The LDS reject faith alone theology--and it is found only once in any translation the faith alone would depend on:

    James 2:24---New American Standard Bible (NASB)
    24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.
    Quote Originally Posted by devils_ham View Post
    Bible does teach it is by faith alone (Rom. 3:28; 4:1-5)
    Romans 3:28---King James Version (KJV)
    28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

    Romans 4:1-5---King James Version (KJV)
    1 What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?
    2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.
    3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
    4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
    5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

    Could you please point out where one finds the term "faith alone" in those verses?

    Again--the sole, only, single, lone occurrence of the term "faith alone"--in any translation you would depend on--is found here:

    James 2:24---New American Standard Bible (NASB)
    24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.

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    Quote Originally Posted by devils_ham View Post
    To the non-LDS people looking thru this forum.....
    What James 2:24 is saying is this: If a person says he has faith, but he gives no outward evidence of that faith through righteous works, his faith will not justify him.
    But that connects faith and works as salvational faith.

    Devils_ham--faith alone theology is a salvation through a faith WITHOUT works.

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    Quote Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
    But that connects faith and works as salvational faith.

    Devils_ham--faith alone theology is a salvation through a faith WITHOUT works.
    This is a subject that has been beat to death......it can go on & on.....

    To the non-LDS people reading this, the LDS church has a certain view on what constitutes faith, works etc.
    It is far different from Orthodox Christianity.
    Good works in the LDS doctrine are paying tithes, not drinking tea or coffee, wearing special undergarments, then going to a temple & participate in a ceremony of handshakes, oaths & chants, etc.
    This is not what the Bible is talking about.

    Read the following for more: http://www.mrm.org/justification-james

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    Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post But that connects faith and works as salvational faith.

    Devils_ham--faith alone theology is a salvation through a faith WITHOUT works.
    Quote Originally Posted by devils_ham View Post
    This is a subject that has been beat to death......it can go on & on.....
    It ends here for me:

    James 2:20-26--King James Version (KJV)
    20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
    21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
    22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
    23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
    24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
    25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?
    26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

    Could you explain why the faith alone preach a salvation through a faith without works--something the Biblical writers termed a "dead" faith?

    To the non-LDS people reading this, the LDS church has a certain view on what constitutes faith, works etc.
    It is far different from Orthodox Christianity.
    So--you are Eastern Orthodox?

    Good works in the LDS doctrine are paying tithes, not drinking tea or coffee, wearing special undergarments, then going to a temple & participate in a ceremony of handshakes, oaths & chants, etc.

    This is not what the Bible is talking about.

    Read the following for more: http://www.mrm.org/justification-james
    What you believe the LDS view as good works does not touch your problem of trying to collate a theology that preaches a salvation through a faith with no works--with the Biblical witness:

    John 5:28-29---King James Version (KJV)
    28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
    29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

    Could you explain for us how you collate a faith alone theology with the Biblical witness that all will be judged according to works--after death--and that for life or damnation?

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    Quote Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
    The LDS reject faith alone theology--and it is found only once in any translation the faith alone would depend on:

    James 2:24---New American Standard Bible (NASB)
    24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.

    The mormon religious cult does not UNDERSTAND what we CHRISTIANS are saying when we state "
    Eph 2:8-98 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.
    NKJV

    Your works won't save you. ONLY FAITH SAVES YOU, BUT THEN AFTERWARDS FAITH DOES WORK.

    You and your cult like to try to 'debunk God' on that.

    FAITH is counted as righteousness by GOD.
    IF you had bothered to READ the WHOLE James account you would find that the person who is looking for justification s a man who 'says' he has faith. He is being rebuked FROM THE STANDPOINT OF MAN.

    GOD knows our hearts, man knows only our works.

    Sorry berry, but you are simply 'talking through your hat' as your supposed 'prophet' did when he stared at a rock in HIS hat. . .

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    Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post The LDS reject faith alone theology--and it is found only once in any translation the faith alone would depend on:

    James 2:24---New American Standard Bible (NASB)
    24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.
    Quote Originally Posted by Christian View Post
    The mormon religious cult does not UNDERSTAND what we CHRISTIANS are saying when we state "[/B][/COLOR]Eph 2:8-9[/COLOR]8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.NKJV

    Your works won't save you.
    No one has claimed works saves anyone.

    ONLY FAITH SAVES YOU,
    In the LDS church--we are taught God's grace saves one.

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    Quote Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
    The LDS reject faith alone theology--and it is found only once in any translation the faith alone would depend on:

    James 2:24---New American Standard Bible (NASB)
    24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.
    Why don't you believe ALL of the Bible? Why is it that the only quote (out of context) verses that "seem" to support Mormon doctrines?

    For example:

    The bible clearly teaches that salvation is by faith and NOT by works.

    1"You were made alive when you were dead in transgressions and sins, 2in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the children of disobedience; 3among whom we also all once lived in the lust of our flesh, doing the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest. 4But God, being rich in mercy, for his great love with which he loved us, 5even when we were dead through our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6and raised us up with him, and made us to sit with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7that in the ages to come he might show the exceeding riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus; 8for by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9not of works, that no one would boast. 10For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared before that we would walk in them."

    Eph 2:1-8

    Why is it that you never include these verses in your bogus exegesis? Perhaps that's why it's bogus?

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    Quote Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
    No one has claimed works saves anyone.



    In the LDS church--we are taught God's grace saves one.
    Nonsense.

    What they teach you is Mormon doublespeak. They teach you to DENY the true meaning of grace.

    Your own leaders and your doctrines clearly claim that works are what saves Mormons.

    Grace is a fake word, as defined by Mormonism, and still means "working" to overcome your own sin.

    (In the quad) Bible Dictionary P 697
    This Grace is an enabling power that allows men and women to lay hold on eternal life and exaltation after they have expended their own best efforts. Divine Grace is needed by every soul in consequence of the fall of Adam and also because of man's weaknesses and shortcomings. However, Grace cannot suffice without total effort on the part of the recipient. Hence, the explanation, "it is by grace we are saved, after all we can do." (2 Ne 25:23)

    So what does grace do for a Mormon? What is this "enabling power?"

    April 1998 Have You Been Saved?
    Dallin H. Oaks
    Of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles

    "And what is “all we can do”? It surely includes repentance (see Alma 24:11) and baptism, keeping the commandments, and enduring to the end. Moroni pleaded, “Yea, come unto Christ, and be perfected in him, and deny yourselves of all ungodliness; and if ye shall deny yourselves of all ungodliness, and love God with all your might, mind and strength, then is his grace sufficient for you, that by his grace ye may be perfect in Christ” (Moro. 10:32).

    Notice the "if - then" statement?

    Dallin H. Oaks April 1998 Have you Been Saved?
    "We are not saved in our sins, as by being unconditionally saved through confessing Christ and then, inevitably, committing sins in our remaining lives (see Alma 11:36–37). We are saved from our sins (see Hel. 5:10) by a weekly renewal of our repentance and cleansing through the grace of God and His blessed plan of salvation (see 3 Ne. 9:20–22).

    So in other words, Mormons must still "work" to overcome their sins, for grace to be effective.

    On the other hand, Christ has done the Work already and Christians must only believe that to be true for all of our sins, past, present and future, to be forgiven.

    Here's some interesting Mormon doublespeak: [my comments in brackets]

    Salvation and Exaltation Theodore M. Burton April 1972

    "Exaltation comes as a gift from God, dependent upon my obedience to God’s law. [so much for the free gift, if you have to work for it] No works I do solely of my own power can bring this to pass. [so he's telling you that you can't do this on your own] Only by the grace of God has this course been opened to me, [grace, meaning overcoming sin, all on your own, see the next if - then statement] but only through obedience to the laws of God can I claim my inheritance in the celestial kingdom of my Heavenly Father as a son within his family. I cannot be exalted in my sins, but must work until I overcome them.

    Do you see the doublespeak? Again, so much for "grace" which essentially does absolutely nothing for you that you don't have to do yourself before "grace" can be applied.

    "Amulek the prophet explained this most clearly as he said of God:"

    “And I say unto you again that he cannot save them in their sins; for I cannot deny his word, and he hath said that no unclean thing can inherit the kingdom of heaven; therefore, how can ye be saved, except ye inherit the kingdom of heaven? Therefore, ye cannot be saved in your sins.” (Alma 11:37.)

    Note that Christians ARE saved in their sins. "For while we were yet weak, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly." (Rom 5:6)

    Also please note that the Mormon Jesus "cannot save them in their sins."

    Mormons should ask themselves... did I really do my best yesterday? Could you have done better? If I have the mentality that I'm doing better today then yesterday, and will do even better tomorrow, then I'm not really doing my best, am I? You probably prayed this morning. Was it 10 minutes? Could you have gotten up a little earlier and prayed an extra 5 minutes? How does a Mormon know when "all he has done" is "enough?"

    Moroni 10: 32 Yea, come unto Christ, and be perfected in him, and deny yourselves of all ungodliness; and if ye shall deny yourselves of all ungodliness, and love God with all your might, mind and strength, then is his grace sufficient for you, that by his grace ye may be perfect in Christ; and if by the grace... 33And again, if ye by the grace of God are perfect in Christ, and deny not his power, then are ye sanctified in Christ by the grace of God, through the shedding of the blood of Christ, which is in the covenant of the Father unto the remission of your sins , that ye become holy , without spot.

    I'm just wondering if there are any "spotless" Mormons out there..?

    “Forgive Them, I Pray Thee”
    Vaughn J. Featherstone October 1980
    For one to be forgiven of sin, the Lord requires that he come unto him, mourn over his sins, forsake the sins, be teachable, forgive others, and confess..Again, in the fifty-eighth section of the Doctrine and Covenants, we read, “By this ye may know if a man repenteth of his sins *behold, he will confess them and forsake them” (D&C 58:43). ...actual forgiveness cannot take place until true repentance has preceded it.

    And guess what happens if Mormons repent of a sin and then repeat that same sin again? Double jeopardy and worse:

    D&C 82:7 And now, verily I say unto you, I, the Lord, will not lay any sin to your charge; go your ways and sin no more; but unto that soul who sinneth shall the former sins return, saith the Lord your God.

    That means every time a Mormon sins, he is once again responsible for and must repent again, for every sin he has ever committed! And if he doesn't do that in this lifetime, he is sealed to Satan for eternity in the lake of fire. Good grief, who can escape from such a spiritual death sentence?

    Mormons must stop sinning completely before grace is effective, even though they cannot, and I fail to see any real difference in one's "position" as it relates to salvation, before and after grace is applied.

    April 1995 "Finding Forgiveness" Richard G. Scott
    Abandonment of sin. This is an unyielding, permanent resolve to not repeat the transgression. By keeping this commitment, the bitter aftertaste of that sin need not be experienced again. Remember: “But unto that soul who sinneth shall the former sins return.”

    Joseph Smith declared: “Repentance is a thing that cannot be trifled with every day. Daily transgression and daily repentance is not … pleasing in the sight of God.”

    So if you're a Mormon and you find that you have to keep repenting, that means that you are still in sin. If you die before you have repented for literally ALL of your sins, (meaning you have stopped sinning completely, which is impossible in our fallen state) you will not achieve the Celestial Kingdom and instead will be sealed to Satan for eternity in the lake of fire.

    And you have no excuse, you are supposed to be able to do this...“And it came to pass that I, Nephi, said unto my father: I will go and do the things which the Lord hath commanded, for I know that the Lord giveth no commandments unto the children of men, save he shall prepare a way for them that they may accomplish the thing which he commandeth them.” (1 Ne. 3:1–7.)

    But where can I see evidence of this "way for them to accomplish the thing he commandeth them?" Seems to me it's all on you. They claim grace is somehow this "way" but grace is not applied until you've already accomplished the goal all on your own.

    ...and it must be done in THIS lifetime:

    Alma 34:34 Ye cannot say, when ye are brought to that awful crisis , that I will repent, that I will return to my God. Nay, ye cannot say this; for that same spirit which doth possess your bodies at the time that ye go out of this life, that same spirit will have power to possess your body in that eternal...

    35For behold, if ye have procrastinated the day of your repentance even until death, behold, ye have become subjected to the spirit of the devil, and he doth seal you his; therefore, the Spirit of the Lord hath withdrawn from you, and hath no place in you, and the devil hath all power over you;...

    October 1977 The Blessings of Righteous Obedience Delbert L. Stapley
    We must recognize that mortality has been granted to us as a probationary state where all physical appetites are to be mastered. It is far more difficult to repent in the spirit world of sins which involve physical habits and actions. The words of Amulek in the Book of Mormon give emphasis to this principle: “Behold,” he said, “now is the time and the day of your salvation. …

    “This life is the time for men to prepare to meet God. …

    “If we do not improve our time while in this life, then cometh the night of darkness wherein there can be no labor performed. …

    “That same spirit which doth possess your bodies at the time that ye go out of this life, that same spirit will have power to possess your body in that eternal world.” (Alma 34:31–34.)
    "It is obvious we either discipline our lives here, or pay the price for the undisciplined life in the world to come."

    You can have Mormon grace, Berrie. It most certainly is works.

    I'll take the free grace package, what you call "cheap grace," and send you a flame proof postcard from heaven when I get there.
    Last edited by Berean; 01-09-2017 at 03:56 PM.

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    Bump for DBerrie

    Anyone?

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    we are saved by grace though faith alone, ...yet faith is never alone.
    From the Forum RULES : "As you know, the Walter Martin website takes the position that Mormon theology is not Christian theology. Use of the term "LDS Christian" is inaccurate and misleading, and as such is not acceptable on this board."

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    Quote Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post
    we are saved by grace though faith alone, ...yet faith is never alone.
    That is a contradictory statement--and a confusing one, IMO.

    Where do we even find the term "faith alone" anywhere in the Biblical text--with the exception to this entry?

    James 2:24---New American Standard Bible (NASB)
    24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.

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    Quote Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
    That is a contradictory statement--and a confusing one, IMO.

    Where do we even find the term "faith alone" anywhere in the Biblical text--with the exception to this entry?

    James 2:24---New American Standard Bible (NASB)
    24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.
    We are saved by grace though faith and that faith is never alone.

    We are not saved by faith alone

    We are not saved by works alone

    We are not even saved by faith and works!





    How are we saved?....We are saved by grace though faith.....thats it...nothing else.....just grace working though only our faith.






    any questions?
    From the Forum RULES : "As you know, the Walter Martin website takes the position that Mormon theology is not Christian theology. Use of the term "LDS Christian" is inaccurate and misleading, and as such is not acceptable on this board."

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    Quote Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post
    We are saved by grace though faith and that faith is never alone.

    We are not saved by faith alone

    We are not saved by works alone

    We are not even saved by faith and works!

    How are we saved?....We are saved by grace though faith.....thats it...nothing else.....just grace working though only our faith.

    any questions?
    Yup--the one you did not answer:

    Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post Where do we even find the term "faith alone" anywhere in the Biblical text--with the exception to this entry?

    James 2:24---New American Standard Bible (NASB)
    24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.

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