Adam did NOT change physically after the sin.

[disciple]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

That is why God planted the Tree of Life in the garden!

The tree of life was so that Adam could eat of it and then live forever!

The tree of Life would change things, would change the flesh of Adam,and allow Adam to then live forever.

So in other words, the reason you are correct in saying that had Adam not sinned he would have lived forever is that had Adam not sinned he would be free to eat of the tree of Life, and the reason God planted the tree was to have Adam eat it and live forever.

Thats the reason God planted that tree there!!!!!!



But we also know that to not eat is to not be changed.
And to not be changed means to remain as you were created.
and to remain as Adam was created means that he will die.
and to die unchanged means that God created Adam as a mortal.

So what gives us eternal life now eating from the tree of life or Jesus?

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by disciple

So what gives us eternal life now eating from the tree of life or Jesus?

The resurrection from the dead we have in Christ gives us the promise of eternal life after the resurrection, when our dead bodies will rise and be changed.

[tdidymas]

Originally Posted by disciple

So what gives us eternal life now eating from the tree of life or Jesus?

This post is for both Saxon and Disciple: I'd like to respond to both in a single posting.

I firmly believe that Adam died TWO DEATHS. The first one was spiritual death the day he ate of the forbidden fruit, and the second was physical death c. 930 years later. Therefore, the tree of life was for physical life, since God cast Adam out of the garden to prevent him from eating of it. Adam died spiritually after eating the forbidden fruit, since God said "in the day you eat of it, you shall surely die." If God was talking about physical death, then the serpent was right by saying "you shall not surely die." But in fact, the serpent was changing the definition of the word "die" in order to deceive Eve, which he was successful in doing. 1 Tim. 2:14 states that Eve was deceived, but Adam was not. Therefore, Adam ate the fruit knowing that he was going to die spiritually but not physically (because he understood God's words, since he was not deceived). He understood God to be using the term "die" as a metaphor for spiritual disconnection from God, in exactly the same way the apostle Paul uses it in most of his writings, for example Eph. 2 (where it is obvious). In fact, in places like Rom., Paul uses the term back and forth for both physical and spiritual death, in order to prove his point about spiritual death. There is a connection between them, but they are not the same event.

Spiritual and physical immortality are also different events. We have eternal life through Christ, yet our bodies are not immortal until the resurrection. Only then do we have eternal life both spiritually and physically. Even then, we might need the tree of life to maintain immortality (I'm unsure of this part), otherwise why is the tree of life in Paradise (Rev. 2:7)?
TD

[alanmolstad]

I just dont find any reference to "spiritual death" in the story.

I just read the words in the story to be talking about normal everyday type of death...where your heart stops and you rot to dust...

[Saxon]

I find myself agreeing with you on this subject.

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by Saxon

I find myself agreeing with you on this subject.

Oh no......

Thats not a good sign....

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by Saxon

I find myself agreeing with you on this subject.

because I tend to deal with this subject a lot in both my outreach to the CULTS as well as conversations with brother Christians...I end up taking positions that are new to me too.

I never really thought much about this topic, but after I posted on it above I went back and rerad what IU had written and I believe its close to the truth........

well close anyway....

[alanmolstad]

the main point I was making is this : That there is a common understanding that most people seem to have about the "fall of man" and its that Adam was created with this type of human body that would have lived forever, but that when Adam sinned his human body was somehow changed and became mortal.

Its a nice little story....its a story that works well with a bunch of other teachings and so no one really questions it.

Im just saying that that such a story is not supported by the text.



Yes, thats true!
The idea that Adam was created with some type of super human body that would have lasted naturally forever is not a teaching that is supported in any way by the text of Genesis.


What is supported by the Text?
The only thing I can find in the real text of Genesis is that Adam was created with the same type of mortal human body we also are created with.
The only reason Adam (and us too) would later die in the Genesis story was that he got kicked out of the garden and so was unable to get to the Tree Of Life.

[Saxon]

Re-read what the Bible says:

Romans 5:12 states that sin entered into the world, and death by sin. Death was not in the world until Adam sinned. The wages of SIN is death. (See Romans 6:23) Death was not a part of the world, it did not exist until Adam brought sin into the world, and with sin, death entered into the world. If Adam had not sinned, there is no indication that Adam would have died. Read up on the tree of life. It will be in heaven but eternal life is in Jesus Christ; not a tree.

Genesis 1:4 And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness.

Genesis 1:10 And God called the dry land Earth; and the gathering together of the waters called he Seas: and God saw that it was good.

Genesis 1:12 And the earth brought forth gr***, and herb yielding seed after his kind, and the tree yielding fruit, whose seed was in itself, after his kind: and God saw that it was good.

Genesis 1:18 And to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness: and God saw that it was good.

Genesis 1:21 And God created great whales, and every living creature that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind, and every winged fowl after his kind: and God saw that it was good.

Genesis 1:25 And God made the beast of the earth after his kind, and cattle after their kind, and every thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind: and God saw that it was good.

Genesis 1:31 And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.


Romans 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death p***ed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord

Show me your supporting text that you claim and be sure that it does not contradict the text that I have supplied.

[alanmolstad]

yes,,,
As i said, when you read the text as written in Genesis you dont find that the human body that Adam was created with was any different than the human bodies we get too,.

There is not even a hint that Adam's body was a different type of human body...or that Adam was a different type of human.

Now lets just ask ourselves why did Adam die?
The common thinking is that at the fall the body of Adam was changed and went from being everlasting to mortal.
But when you read the story what you find out is that the only reason Adam got kicked out of the garden was to keep him from going over to the Tree Of Life and eating of it and living forever...


Thats the reason he dies later...

He dies due to the natural mortal body he was created with running out of time.

If Adam was created with a different type of body...if it was a body that could live forever, then what was the point of the Tree Of Life?







The fact that God planted the Tree Of Life in the garden to be there and eaten by the man proves 100% that God created Adam as a normal mortal.


The Tree Of Life only does one ***...
The Tree Of Life brings everlasting life to any who eat of it.

Thats it's ***...it's only ***.

If Adam had been created with everlasting life at the beginning, then the Tree of life is pointless...

The Tree of life only works on mortals....you cant give everlasting life to someone who has it already.



Thus in the text we have only one teaching that is supported by the bible as to the state of the human body that Adam was created with....that is that Adam was created with a normal mortal human body that needed to eat of the Tree Of Life to live forever.


Adam was created mortal in need of eating
We also are born with a mortal body that is in need of eating of the tree of life.

What happened to Adam is that before he could eat of the Tree Of Life he got kicked out...
Due to his sin, he was unable to eat of the Tree of life...
Thus due to sin, death is still here and is p***ed down to us his children.



This also is why the Tree Of Life is again talked about in the biook of Revelation...
It'ds because God did not error in creating and planting the Tree of Life...for in the end, the Tree gets to do what it was first created by God to do.



In other words, the angels are not sitting around and every once in a while glance over to the tree of life and make the comment "Boy, that idea sure went nowhere"

[Saxon]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

yes,,,
As i said, when you read the text as written in Genesis you dont find that the human body that Adam was created with was any different than the human bodies we get too,.

There is not even a hint that Adam's body was a different type of human body...or that Adam was a different type of human.

Now lets just ask ourselves why did Adam die?
The common thinking is that at the fall the body of Adam was changed and went from being everlasting to mortal.
But when you read the story what you find out is that the only reason Adam got kicked out of the garden was to keep him from going over to the Tree Of Life and eating of it and living forever...


Thats the reason he dies later...

He dies due to the natural mortal body he was created with running out of time.

If Adam was created with a different type of body...if it was a body that could live forever, then what was the point of the Tree Of Life?







The fact that God planted the Tree Of Life in the garden to be there and eaten by the man proves 100% that God created Adam as a normal mortal.


The Tree Of Life only does one ***...
The Tree Of Life brings everlasting life to any who eat of it.

Thats it's ***...it's only ***.

If Adam had been created with everlasting life at the beginning, then the Tree of life is pointless...

The Tree of life only works on mortals....you cant give everlasting life to someone who has it already.



Thus in the text we have only one teaching that is supported by the bible as to the state of the human body that Adam was created with....that is that Adam was created with a normal mortal human body that needed to eat of the Tree Of Life to live forever.


Adam was created mortal in need of eating
We also are born with a mortal body that is in need of eating of the tree of life.

What happened to Adam is that before he could eat of the Tree Of Life he got kicked out...
Due to his sin, he was unable to eat of the Tree of life...
Thus due to sin, death is still here and is p***ed down to us his children.



This also is why the Tree Of Life is again talked about in the biook of Revelation...
It'ds because God did not error in creating and planting the Tree of Life...for in the end, the Tree gets to do what it was first created by God to do.



In other words, the angels are not sitting around and every once in a while glance over to the tree of life and make the comment "Boy, that idea sure went nowhere"

Why did Adam die you ask? Adam died because he sinned. (See Romans 5:12) By one man sin entered into the world, and death came in by sin. The waged of sin is what???? DEATH. (See Romans 6:23)

Adam was driven out of the garden because he was a sinner and as a sinner he had no right to the tree of life. If Adam ate from the tree of life as a sinner he would have lived forever as a sinner, but the Father had a better plan that would redeem Adam and the rest of mankind so he could live forever as a righteous man and not as a sinful man.

Romans 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death p***ed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord

Your whole commentary is total speculation as you have not provided any statement to explain your post. You need to explain why there was no death before Adam sinned and why Adam could die before there was sin and death in the world. If there was no sin and death Adam could not have died.

[alanmolstad]

In the story of Genesis, what would have happened if Adam were to have eaten of the Tree of Life?....
ANSWER - He would live forever.

Did Adam eat of that tree?
ANSWER - no

Did Adam die?
Answer - yes.

Its that simple.

The fact that there is a tree of Life in the Garden proves to us that Adam was created mortal.

[alanmolstad]

so its that simple.

If you eat of that tree you live forever
If you dont eat of it you dont live forever.

[Saxon]

Have life in Christ and you live forever!

[alanmolstad]

so...the reason Adam later died of old age is due to his sin, thats for sure.
But specifically he died because he was unable to eat of the tree of life.

The tree of life gives eternal life to a mortal man that eats of it...

What mortal man is there in the story?......only Adam.

The fact that God planted the Tree of Life in the garden in the first place proves 100% that God created Adam as a mortal.

[alanmolstad]

Is there a single verse in the story of Genesis that has God telling Adam that he had changed the nature of Adam's body so that now it would die?...no!

The body of Adam never changed at all from the time before he sinned to the time after he sinned.
In fact, the verse that talks about man being dust can be understood as telling Adam he remains as he always was ...

He did not change...

God never tells him that he was any different.


Adam's body remained as it always was....mortal....a mortal body that was always in need of eating of the Tree of Life to live forever.

Thats the reason for the Tree of Life!

[alanmolstad]

here is a link....

http://thinktheology.org/2016/03/23/...ally-immortal/

[Saxon]

Genesis 1:26 Then God said, “Let us make man in our image, after our likeness. And let them have dominion over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the heavens and over the livestock and over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.”

The image and likeness of God is eternal.

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by Saxon

Genesis 1:26 Then God said, “Let us make man in our image, after our likeness. And let them have dominion over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the heavens and over the livestock and over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.”

The image and likeness of God is eternal.

that of man that is made in the image of God is not our bodies of flesh...
Thats a false Mormon teaching.


Mormons believe that God has a body with fingers and flesh ...thats a Smith idea that goes against the Bible totally.

The Bible tells us our bodies of flesh are nothing but dust and always were from the beginning...

When we die our flesh goes into the grave and our SPIRIT goes to the God who gave it....

This points us to the fact that God created Adam as a mortal creature...a mortal creature that had need of the tree of life...

thats the reason God planted the tree for us...its because we needed it....

[Saxon]

There is also the fact that man is also a trinity; spirit, soul and body. (God is Father Son and Holy Spirit)

Try to deal with Romans 5:12 and Romans 6:23 by saying why you seem to think that it is not correct; death coming into the world on the coat tails of sin. You are dodging the following:

Why did Adam die you ask? Adam died because he sinned. (See Romans 5:12) By one man sin entered into the world, and death came in by sin. The waged of sin is what???? DEATH. (See Romans 6:23)

Adam was driven out of the garden because he was a sinner and as a sinner he had no right to the tree of life. If Adam ate from the tree of life as a sinner he would have lived forever as a sinner, but the Father had a better plan that would redeem Adam and the rest of mankind so he could live forever as a righteous man and not as a sinful man.

Romans 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death p***ed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord

[alanmolstad]

Adam died only because he was not allowed to eat of the tree of life....
Thats why he died according to the Bible...thats why his death is p***ed on to his children due to his sin and being kicked out of the garden.

at no place does the Bible say that the flesh of Adam changed...The Bible does not say Adam became mortal, rather it tells us that the Tree of Life offers mortals the ability to live forever.

So the tree of Life allows mortals to live forever.
The tree of Life was there for men to eat, as it is part of the food in the garden that was given to man to eat...
This means that man was created mortal and was designed to eat and live forever.

[alanmolstad]

"Be fruitful and multiply and fill the earth.".....a command given to humans when we are created.

Not really something you tell immortal beings...
Angels are never told to reproduce
Jesus says that in the Kingdom we do not marry, so there seems therefore to be no need for immortal beings to reproduce..

The Tree of Life appears in the ending of the Book Of revelation, and is said to be being eaten by people...
The time the tree of life is said to be feeding people is AFTER the resurrection!
We dont reproduce in the Kingdom, yet we need to still eat of the tree of Life...


The tree of Life changes a mortal being of flesh and blood, into an immortal being of flesh and bone.

Everyone always tells me that in the resurrection, mankind will return to the physical state we had in the garden before the sin.
Fine, I have no problem agreeing with that, But I will just point out that Adam was created with a need to eat of the tree of life....for the only thing the tree of life does is change a mortal being into an immortal being..


Thus this proves that man was created mortal.

For in Revelation we see the tree of Life once again doing what it was created to do...offer life to humans.

[alanmolstad]

Now when I address questions like this that are dealing with the text of Genesis, I always first approach things with the idea that everything is to be taken literal.

This helps me get to the point of "What does the text literally say?"
So much of the YEC teachings are based on nothing found in the written text of the Scriptures.
This is why before I try to teach people what the Bible "means" I first try hard to stick close to what the Bible literally "says" in black and white.

This means that if the Bible talks about a 'tree of life"...then the first way i try to deal with the text is to ***ume that we are talking about a real 'tree"...a real tree with bark and roots and everything.

But in truth, I also understand that the Bible is filled with symbols.
Somethings might well be called one type of thing, but they are not to be taken that literal, for they but have a higher meaning...

I dont remember Jesus calling himself the "tree" of life, but he does call himself the "bread" of life.

Was Jesus really made of grain and yeast?.....no.

Jesus used the idea of bread to teach us something about himself.
Jesus also stayed within this symbol as he would teach that we must eat of the "bread of life".

So this shows us that even if Jesus was not for a moment saying that he was literally made of bread, he yet continued to stay within this use of a symbol to teach us higher concepts.

Clearly there is a lot of use of symbols in the Bible, so much so that while we may read of a single "tree of life" in a bible story or the listing of a snake that talks to people, we should never lose track of the understanding that much of this may be due to a rich use of symbols in the story.....

and as a likely story filled from one end to the other with symbols we should never demand that it "Must be taken literally ".

[Saxon]

Romans 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death p***ed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord

How could Adam die before there was sin and death in the world??

[Saxon]

God gives eternal life. Jesus is eternal life. He was nailed to a tree.

1 John 5:11 And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.