Adam in the Garden

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

Alan--I am referring to Jesus Christ--before He became a man:

Known as the WORD in John 1:1
The WORD is unchanging...eternal...the very perfect example eternal life, in that the Word is God Almighty...and God not only does not change,God CANT change.




questions?

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

Known as the WORD in John 1:1
The WORD is unchanging...eternal...

Well--if He is unchanging -then when did God obtain eternal life?

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post So--did Jesus Christ have eternal life before He became mortal and died?

Quote Originally Posted by alanmolstad View PostQUESTION : So--did Jesus Christ have eternal life before He became mortal and died?
ANSWER : No.

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

Well--if He is unchanging -then when did God obtain eternal life?

Off hand I would say that if a person has a concept of God that has their god needing to obtain eternal life?....then I would say someone needs to back-that-school-bus-the -heck up....


God does not change....
(see http://biblehub.com/malachi/3-6.htm)

Everything created is subject to time,,,subject to age....and subject to death.

But He who created all can not change.
God does not change for God cant change.

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

Off hand I would say that if a person has a concept of God that has their god needing to obtain eternal life?....then I would say someone needs to back-that-school-bus-the -heck up....

You might want to consider that:

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post So--did Jesus Christ have eternal life before He became mortal and died?

Quote Originally Posted by alanmolstad View PostQUESTION : So--did Jesus Christ have eternal life before He became mortal and died? ANSWER : No.

[alanmolstad]

no....
Jesus is both God and man.
In his human nature Jesus did not have eternal life until after the resurrection.

again, the fact is that Jesus has two natures..

What part of my answer do you not get?

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

no....Jesus is both God and man.
In his human nature Jesus did not have eternal life until after the resurrection.

But my question--and your answer--was before Jesus' incarnation--when He was fully God--and before He became man:

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post So--did Jesus Christ have eternal life before He became mortal and died?

Quote Originally Posted by alanmolstad View PostQUESTION : So--did Jesus Christ have eternal life before He became mortal and died? ANSWER : No.

So--God did not possess eternal life until when?

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

But my question--and your answer--was before Jesus' incarnation--when He was fully God--and before He became man:





So--God did not possess eternal life until when?

and this is the answer....as best as I can write.

Jesus has two totally different natures, operating within him at the same time.

How they do this no one knows?


Before Jesus came to earth he was only known as the WORD as talked about in the book of John.

But then inside the womb of his mother, the WORD became flesh.
But lets not forget that the WORD still is God.
The WORD never stopped being God Almighty, and as such the Divine nature of the WORD remained unchanged.

But the WORD became flesh...
Human flesh.

Thus the 2nd nature is fully human.
This 2nd nature is mortal.
This human nature that Jesus has is just the same as you and Iare.
We age,Jesus aged.
We die, Jesus died.


So thats how it works.

The Divine nature never was lost or changed....
God is always everlasting and eternal,,,(or whatever words you have that describe God as unable to change)





So to review:
Jesus has 2 totally different natures in himself.
The 1st nature is Divine and eternal and unchanging.
The 2nd nature is mortal.

Jesus in his humanity was born ( so it had a clear beginning) and died and only then is raised in an everlasting body.
This is why we look to the resurrection of Christ to be like a guide for our own in the future..
This is because he is just as mortal and like us in every way...

Jesus in his divine nature is unchanging and is eternal.

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

and this is the answer....as best as I can write.

Jesus has two totally different natures, operating within him at the same time.

How they do this no one knows?


Before Jesus came to earth he was only known as the WORD as talked about in the book of John.

But then inside the womb of his mother, the WORD became flesh.
But lets not forget that the WORD still is God.
The WORD never stopped being God Almighty, and as such the Divine nature of the WORD remained unchanged.

But the WORD became flesh...
Human flesh.

Thus the 2nd nature is fully human.
This 2nd nature is mortal.

Again Alan--the question, and your answer--had nothing to do with mortality:

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post So--did Jesus Christ have eternal life before He became mortal and died?

Quote Originally Posted by alanmolstad View PostQUESTION : So--did Jesus Christ have eternal life before He became mortal and died? ANSWER : No.

[alanmolstad]

There is no other answer that I have, or know of.

I believe my answer is very close to the teaching I received by listing to Walter Martin...
At this point I guess I could quote some source that perhaps you might catch better than my own words...But that sounds like a lot of work...

I truly believe I gave you the answer...
and I think my answer is the only correct answer...
But there are many other ways of describing what Im saying...

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

and this is the answer....as best as I can write.

Jesus has two totally different natures, operating within him at the same time.

How they do this no one knows?


Before Jesus came to earth he was only known as the WORD as talked about in the book of John.

But then inside the womb of his mother, the WORD became flesh.
But lets not forget that the WORD still is God.
The WORD never stopped being God Almighty, and as such the Divine nature of the WORD remained unchanged.

But the WORD became flesh...
Human flesh.

Thus the 2nd nature is fully human.
This 2nd nature is mortal.
This human nature that Jesus has is just the same as you and Iare.
We age,Jesus aged.
We die, Jesus died.


So thats how it works.

The Divine nature never was lost or changed....
God is always everlasting and eternal,,,(or whatever words you have that describe God as unable to change)





So to review:
Jesus has 2 totally different natures in himself.
The 1st nature is Divine and eternal and unchanging.
The 2nd nature is mortal.

Jesus in his humanity was born ( so it had a clear beginning) and died and only then is raised in an everlasting body.
This is why we look to the resurrection of Christ to be like a guide for our own in the future..
This is because he is just as mortal and like us in every way...

Jesus in his divine nature is unchanging and is eternal.

I honestly believe I actually deal a lot with the question of the mortality of Jesus in his human nature...

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

I honestly believe I actually deal a lot with the question of the mortality of Jesus in his human nature...

I agree--you did. But I consider it a diversion, as my point was not about the human nature--as the question and answer show:

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post So--did Jesus Christ have eternal life before He became mortal and died?

Quote Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post QUESTION : So--did Jesus Christ have eternal life before He became mortal and died? ANSWER : No.

Alan--if God did not possess eternal life in the pre-incarnate state--when did God obtain it?

[alanmolstad]

I think you need a little break to be able to take a fresh look at things...

[alanmolstad]

If there is a line I have written you would like to to have a 2nd look at to see if it's correct?...just let me know...

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

If there is a line I have written you would like to to have a 2nd look at to see if it's correct?...just let me know...

Alan--I've alreaqdy done that--but you keep circling behind your "two different natures" response. My question has nothing to do with the two different natures.

In fact--it centers in the arena before Christ's Incarnation:

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post So--did Jesus Christ have eternal life before He became mortal and died?

Quote Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post QUESTION : So--did Jesus Christ have eternal life before He became mortal and died? ANSWER : No.

My question to Alan--if God did not possess eternal life in the eternities, before He became mortal--then when did God acquire eternal life? If God did not posses eternal life until after His mortality--then how could He have offered it to mankind prior to that moment?

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

Alan--I've alreaqdy done that--but you keep circling behind your "two different natures" response. My question has nothing to do with the two different natures.

In fact--it centers in the arena before Christ's Incarnation:





My question to Alan--if God did not possess eternal life in the eternities, before He became mortal--then when did God acquire eternal life? If God did not posses eternal life until after His mortality--then how could He have offered it to mankind prior to that moment?

Lets go slow over my answer to see at one point I lose my audience?....


Jesus has 2 ....TOTALLY DIFFERENT natures.
questions?

The Divine nature and the human nature
Questions?

The Divine nature of Jesus is always unchanged...for God can not change.
God does not age...God does not die.
God is eternal.
The Divine nature of Christ is always eternal and everlasting and always, always, always alive .
Questions?

The human nature of Jesus was created in the womb of Mary.
The human nature of Jesus was the same as our own nature.
So Jesus was able to age and die as a typical human.
Questions?

These two totally different natures are always present in Jesus.
They do this in an unknown manner.
So this allows Jesus to be fully God, (and therefore eternal and living forever)
and fully human (and therefore mortal)at the same time.
Questions?

The divine nature of Christ did not become mortal.
But the mortal nature of Christ became eternal in the resurrection....as well all Christians.
Questions?








There, that should help me understand where I lose you....

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

.....when did God acquire eternal life? .....

You keep asking this like someone in this conversation has said that God had to acquire eternal life?

Why is that?

are you on meds or something I should know about?



As we have seen the Bible teaches that God never acquired eternal life,and I know that is not anything I have ever taught you here.

My guess is that you are confusing what the Bible teaches with what the Mormons teach...

Mormons are well known to have such ideas about their god...but Im really only talking about Bible teachings here, so lets not go into that dark hole...

[alanmolstad]

tell you what Im going to do.

I will quote your comment, and then add my response in another color...(Blue)and in a slightly bigger text so you can read along what you posted,and how I respond to things step by step.


Here we go!

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

My question to Alan--if God did not possess eternal life God always is eternal life!
Who said that God in his divine nature had to become eternal?...not me!...lets go on - in the eternities, before He became mortal--then when did God acquire eternal life? Again, God has been the same and God can not change...God is not able to stop being God...God is eternal life, thus God will always be in his divine nature eternal life...If God did not posses eternal life until after His mortality Christ has two totally different natures, Jesus is both God and man. The humanity of Jesus suffered death, his divinity cant die The human nature of Jesus was mortal, the Divine nature of Jesus is eternal life.--then how could He have offered it to mankind prior to that moment?

I hope that helps you see what Im talking about and how it address your questions about the nature of God's Son.

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

I will quote your comment, and then add my response in another color...(Blue)and in a slightly bigger text so you can read along what you posted,and how I respond to things step by step.


Here we go!

I hope that helps you see what Im talking about and how it address your questions about the nature of God's Son.

Alan--it muddies the water even further:

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

God always is eternal life! Who said that God in his divine nature had to become eternal?...not me!...lets go on - in the eternities, before He became mortal--then when did God acquire eternal life? Again, God has been the same and God can not change...God is not able to stop being God...God is eternal life, thus God will always be in his divine nature eternal life...If God did not posses eternal life until after His mortality Christ has two totally different natures, Jesus is both God and man. The humanity of Jesus suffered death, his divinity cant die The human nature of Jesus was mortal, the Divine nature of Jesus is eternal life.

Please do collate that with your previous statement:

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post So--did Jesus Christ have eternal life before He became mortal and died?

Quote Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post QUESTION : So--did Jesus Christ have eternal life before He became mortal and died? ANSWER : No.

[alanmolstad]

No.
What I want you to do is drop back to post number 36 and answer each time I ask you if you have any questions with a Y for yes and a N for no

[alanmolstad]

Here is what I "think"is your problem.

Every time I say that the mortal human natureof Christ was not born eternal but just the same mortal flesh as you and I you react by asking how can "God" not be eternal???

Every time I say that Jesus is both God and Man you react by asking then how can he not be eternal if he is God?

Thats the problem here, you have overlooked the two different natures that Jesus has.

So when I say that Jesus was mortal, aged and died you ask, how God can die?

When I say that God is eternal and cant change, cant die , you ask when did God become eternal?

[alanmolstad]

This is why I want you to drop back to my post #36 above and go over the statements I make about Jesus, and after each one decide for yourself if the statement I make is where you see a point that needs to be addressed???

Then we can see where the issue is at that you have a problem with?

[alanmolstad]

Walter Martin used to teach that you have to first work on defining the terms before any conversation about Jesus gets anywhere.

Thats why I want you to drop back and go over my questions I ask you at post 36.

I want to know the moment you call something I have said into question.
I want to know where you think something does not add up?

The reason is that I think I should define in a lot more clear terms who Jesus is, and what is true about him, so that when I say "Jesus" you know who I have in my mind whan I say that name.

If you dont go over the post 36 questions, Im afraid that we are just spinning our wheels, because every time I say, "Jesus is God" you ask, "How could God die?"

And when I say "Jesus was born a normal mortal " you ask "If Jesus is God and was created mortal, when did God become eternal?"

and we go round and round....

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

Here is what I "think"is your problem.

Every time I say that the mortal human natureof Christ was not born eternal but just the same mortal flesh as you and I you react by asking how can "God" not be eternal???

Every time I say that Jesus is both God and Man you react by asking then how can he not be eternal if he is God?

Thats the problem here, you have overlooked the two different natures that Jesus has.

As I have already stated--I'm not interested in what you believe about the two different natures of Jesus--and I have not engaged you on that subject.

What I am interested in--and find you divert into the two different natures of Jesus every time I ask you--is to collate your statements to your answer here:

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post So--did Jesus Christ have eternal life before He became mortal and died?

Quote Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post QUESTION : So--did Jesus Christ have eternal life before He became mortal and died? ANSWER : No.

Alan--please don't go to the two different natures diversion. As you state--and I also--this is BEFORE the Incarnation. Before mortality, so it can't involve the two different natures of Christ.

Why do you believe God did not possess eternal life BEFORE He came to earth--in the flesh?

When Did God obtain eternal life--if He did not possess it prior to the Incarnation?

Again--I'm not interested in your two different natures--but God BEFORE He was Incarnated--and why He did not possess eternal life at that point--according to you:

Quote Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post QUESTION : So--did Jesus Christ have eternal life before He became mortal and died? ANSWER : No.

[alanmolstad]

I am very disappointed that you would not drop back and answer the questions I ask you on post 36.

I find this to be a sign that you are not really all that interested in a conversation with me,as you know this was important to me and I had taken my time to make this a better conversation via post 36

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

I am very disappointed that you would not drop back and answer the questions I ask you on post 36.

I find this to be a sign that you are not really all that interested in a conversation with me,as you know this was important to me and I had taken my time to make this a better conversation via post 36

a Bump.........