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Thread: Adam in the Garden

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    Default Adam in the Garden

    Originally Posted by alanmolstad View PostThe Tree of Life changes you.
    When you eat of it you are changed.
    The moment you eat of it your flesh goes from being naturally mortal, to everlasting.

    Thats how we know God created humans as mortal creatures.
    How do you collate that statement with the testimony of the scriptures?

    1 Corinthians 15:21---King James Version (KJV)

    21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.

    Are you identifying the "by man came death," phrase in 1Cor15:21--as God Himself?

    Alan--God did not become man until 4,000 years later. The only man, as to the Garden-- was Adam.

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    Quote Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post
    yes...thats what Im saying
    We were created to live forever by eating the tree of life.

    That was the way Adam was created.


    Remember there is no point in God planting a tree of life that brings eternal life to mortal creatures, if man was created already with eternal life.

    You cant lose eternal life...

    (If you think you lost your eternal life, you never had it in the beginning because eternal life last forever.....(hence the word "Eternal) )
    I'm not arguing eternal life--but immortality. All will inherit immortality through Christ's resurrection--but all will not inherit eternal life. They are two different things.

    There isn't any evidence partaking of the tree couldn't maintain their immortality. It just isn't specifically explained in the scriptures.

    One can go from immortality to mortality--and maybe even eternal life to mortality--as we see that in the case of Christ.

    To focus on Adam and whether he had immortality or mortality before the Fall:

    Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post The Tree of Life changes you.

    When you eat of it you are changed.

    The moment you eat of it your flesh goes from being naturally mortal, to everlasting.

    Thats how we know God created humans as mortal creatures.
    How do you collate that statement with the testimony of the scriptures?

    1 Corinthians 15:21---King James Version (KJV)
    21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.

    Are you identifying the "by man came death," phrase in 1Cor15:21--as God Himself?

    Alan--God did not become man until 4,000 years later. The only man, as to the Garden-- was Adam.

    I have started a new thread where we can focus your answer on that question--"Adam in the garden".

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    that's a good one.....LOL






    But,moving on...
    Let me say this one more time-

    If you "live forever" you don't die.

    Eternal life means life everlasting....Life without end.


    If you think you have "eternal life" but then later you lost this, you never had it from the start!...
    Eternal life lasts forever...(hence the word "eternal")


    The proof that Adam was created a normal human and mortal is the fact that God planted then tree of lifein the garden.
    The tree of life is able to change a person and they then live forever...

    As this tree was planted for the sake of Adam,this means that Adam had a need for it.

    This proves 100% that Adam was created a mortal.
    From the Forum RULES : "As you know, the Walter Martin website takes the position that Mormon theology is not Christian theology. Use of the term "LDS Christian" is inaccurate and misleading, and as such is not acceptable on this board."

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    Quote Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post
    that's a good one.....LOL

    But,moving on...
    Let me say this one more time-

    If you "live forever" you don't die.

    Eternal life means life everlasting....Life without end.


    If you think you have "eternal life" but then later you lost this, you never had it from the start!...
    Eternal life lasts forever...(hence the word "eternal")
    So--did Jesus Christ have eternal life before He became mortal and died?

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    QUESTION : So--did Jesus Christ have eternal life before He became mortal and died?
    ANSWER : No.

    Remember the Bible teaches that Jesus was fully 100% God Almighty...AND....fully 100% human...

    and as a man the Bible teaches that Jesus is just the same as you and I.

    If the human body of Jesus was different in any way than Adam or different than you and I, then his death and resurrection could not be used in the Text as a guide to our own resurrections.

    But the Bible does use the body of Christ as a guide to our own body resurrections.

    The Bible is clear that Jesus is a "man"

    The same term used to talk about Adam before he was even created...."Let us make "man"..."

    So when Jesus was incarnate he was incarnate into this world in the flesh of a normal man....anything different would mean he was something other than a man...



    So to review.
    When Adam was created he had within his mortal body the ability and need to live forever by eating the Tree of Life.

    When the God wrapped himself in the flesh of a human, he did so with the flesh of a normal mortal man.

    At no point was the human flesh of Jesus eternal, everlasting, or could be said to have "lived forever" before the incarnation inside Mary and before the resurrection of Christ in the tomb.

    If you "live forever", you dont ever die nor can you ever die.
    (Hence the word "forever")


    If you have flesh that has "eternal life" (as I will have one day)that flesh will live eternally ...

    That is why its called "eternal life" and not "temporary life">




    Now I was asked if it is true that it was the job of the Tree of Life to offer mankind eternal life in the garden,what does that now for us ?

    My answer is to point out that in the story of the resurrection of all the dead as told to us in the Book of Revelation, we see a return of the tree of Life.

    So it seems that God did not just plant the tree of life in the garden ,and then had to give upon it's mission after all.

    God's word tells us that God did not uproot the Tree of life.

    Its still there in the garden....

    In the end the Tree of Life will still do what it was created to do....
    Last edited by alanmolstad; 11-03-2016 at 05:37 AM.
    From the Forum RULES : "As you know, the Walter Martin website takes the position that Mormon theology is not Christian theology. Use of the term "LDS Christian" is inaccurate and misleading, and as such is not acceptable on this board."

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    Quote Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
    So--did Jesus Christ have eternal life before He became mortal and died?
    Quote Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post
    QUESTION : So--did Jesus Christ have eternal life before He became mortal and died?
    ANSWER : No.

    Remember the Bible teaches that Jesus was fully 100% God Almighty...AND....fully 100% human...
    Was Jesus Christ 100% God before He came to earth as a man? If so--why didn't 100% God possess eternal life before He came to earth?

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    Quote Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
    Was Jesus Christ 100% God before He came to earth as a man? If so--why didn't 100% God possess eternal life before He came to earth?
    The Bible tells us that Jesus was fullya man...he became a man inside his mothers womb.
    The flesh that Jesus was born with was completely human in every way.

    and thats what we are talking about here....the flesh of Adam...the flesh of jesus...the flesh of you and I too.

    We all are completely human.
    We all are created as mortal creatures.

    Adam did not change and become mortal
    Jesus did not change and become mortal
    I did not change and become mortal

    We all were mortal the moment we hit the road running!

    This is why we can look to the life and resurrection of Christ as being a guide to our own death and resurrections.

    If Jesus's body were in any way different than our own, then his resurrection can not be used to be a guide for our resurrections.

    How do we know what Im saying is the truth?
    By this - "...one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus,"
    "Let us make man ..."

    Whatever man was when he was created (mortal), so too was Jesus.
    From the Forum RULES : "As you know, the Walter Martin website takes the position that Mormon theology is not Christian theology. Use of the term "LDS Christian" is inaccurate and misleading, and as such is not acceptable on this board."

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    Quote Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
    Was Jesus Christ 100% God before He came to earth as a man? If so--why didn't 100% God possess eternal life before He came to earth?
    Yes...
    And being 100% God Almighty we know within his Divine nature that he could not die...

    and beng 100% human we know that the human body of Jesus did die.....

    the human body of Jesus was mortal....

    the Divine nature of God in Christ cant die.


    this is like the question the JWs are always asking here - "Alan if Jesus was God as you say, and he died, who ran the universe?"

    The answer is to remember that Jesus is fully human, and fully God.
    Two totally different natures in the one person.
    Thus the human body that Jesus was born with aged, grew old, and died.
    Yet the Divine nature Jesus had cant grow old...cant age.... cant die...
    From the Forum RULES : "As you know, the Walter Martin website takes the position that Mormon theology is not Christian theology. Use of the term "LDS Christian" is inaccurate and misleading, and as such is not acceptable on this board."

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    So the divine nature of Christ is eternal and that did not change.....not even a small little bit in the incarnation.

    Yet Jesus was also born fully human...and as a fully human Jesus was born mortal just as we are,
    From the Forum RULES : "As you know, the Walter Martin website takes the position that Mormon theology is not Christian theology. Use of the term "LDS Christian" is inaccurate and misleading, and as such is not acceptable on this board."

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    Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post Was Jesus Christ 100% God before He came to earth as a man? If so--why didn't 100% God possess eternal life before He came to earth?
    Quote Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post
    Yes...
    And being 100% God Almighty we know within his Divine nature that he could not die...

    and beng 100% human we know that the human body of Jesus did die.....

    the human body of Jesus was mortal....

    the Divine nature of God in Christ cant die.


    this is like the question the JWs are always asking here - "Alan if Jesus was God as you say, and he died, who ran the universe?"

    The answer is to remember that Jesus is fully human, and fully God.
    Two totally different natures in the one person.
    Thus the human body that Jesus was born with aged, grew old, and died.
    Yet the Divine nature Jesus had cant grow old...cant age.... cant die...
    The question being--why didn't God possess eternal life before coming to earth? He was not yet man.

    Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post So--did Jesus Christ have eternal life before He became mortal and died?
    Quote Originally Posted by alanmolstad View PostQUESTION : So--did Jesus Christ have eternal life before He became mortal and died?
    ANSWER : No.

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    Originally Posted by alanmolstad View PostThe Tree of Life changes you.
    When you eat of it you are changed.
    The moment you eat of it your flesh goes from being naturally mortal, to everlasting.

    Thats how we know God created humans as mortal creatures.
    Quote Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
    How do you collate that statement with the testimony of the scriptures?

    1 Corinthians 15:21---King James Version (KJV)
    21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.

    Are you identifying the "by man came death," phrase in 1Cor15:21--as God Himself?

    Alan--God did not become man until 4,000 years later. The only man, as to the Garden-- was Adam.
    Bump for Alan

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    Ive been bumped?
    From the Forum RULES : "As you know, the Walter Martin website takes the position that Mormon theology is not Christian theology. Use of the term "LDS Christian" is inaccurate and misleading, and as such is not acceptable on this board."

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    This is my first bumping....I didn't know how to dress for it...

    I assume there will be cake later?
    From the Forum RULES : "As you know, the Walter Martin website takes the position that Mormon theology is not Christian theology. Use of the term "LDS Christian" is inaccurate and misleading, and as such is not acceptable on this board."

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    Originally Posted by alanmolstad View PostThe Tree of Life changes you.
    When you eat of it you are changed.

    The moment you eat of it your flesh goes from being naturally mortal, to everlasting.

    Thats how we know God created humans as mortal creatures.
    Quote Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View PostHow do you collate that statement with the testimony of the scriptures?

    1 Corinthians 15:21---King James Version (KJV)
    21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.

    Are you identifying the "by man came death," phrase in 1Cor15:21--as God Himself?

    Alan--God did not become man until 4,000 years later. The only man, as to the Garden-- was Adam.
    Quote Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post
    This is my first bumping....I didn't know how to dress for it...
    Hi Alan:

    Just show up--we will accept you as you are.

    As for your answer?

    I assume there will be cake later?
    There seems to be more crow than cake in your non-answer.

    Care to address the above posts?

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    Quote Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
    Care to address the above posts?

    So Im posting away, and dealing with all the questions, when I get asked the same question I just answered a day or so ago???

    So I did not understand why Im asked the same question when I took so long to write the best answer I had to that question...(I mean its not like I thought of a new answer in the last day or so)

    But then I looked by accident at the title of the topic I was posting on..
    "Adam in the Garden" ?????

    Where did this topic come from?
    I thought I was posting on a totally different topic that I started in a totally different section of the Walter Martin forum.

    No wonder I keep getting asked the same question that I already gave the best answer I got for...


    Be that asit may...
    My best and really only answer is here -
    http://www.waltermartin.com/forums/s...315#post170315

    post number # 104
    From the Forum RULES : "As you know, the Walter Martin website takes the position that Mormon theology is not Christian theology. Use of the term "LDS Christian" is inaccurate and misleading, and as such is not acceptable on this board."

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    and...because the forum is once again screwing up and seems to be stuck and not updating...I will try to copy/past that link's number 104 comment here and see if that works?

    "yes...thats what Im saying
    We were created to live forever by eating the tree of life.

    That was the way Adam was created.


    Remember there is no point in God planting a tree of life that brings eternal life to mortal creatures, if man was created already with eternal life.

    You cant lose eternal life...

    (If you think you lost your eternal life, you never had it in the beginning because eternal life last forever.....(hence the word "Eternal) )



    Adam was a mortal creature, who was designed by his creator to live forever by eating the tree.

    But because of the sin of Adam, God banned Adam from eating, then Adam was unchanged...thus Adam died.

    The moment God kicked Adam out of the garden, man was condemned.

    Adam was created mortal,and died mortal.
    Dust we are, dust he returned to.

    Adam was never anything other than just the dust if the earth.
    Nothing about Adam's flesh was different in any way that any other creature.

    And because of the results of Adam;s sin, we die....
    This sin entered the world though Adam....and from the sin, death came to us all.



    thats the answer to your question on 1 Corinthians 15:21 "
    From the Forum RULES : "As you know, the Walter Martin website takes the position that Mormon theology is not Christian theology. Use of the term "LDS Christian" is inaccurate and misleading, and as such is not acceptable on this board."

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    Quote Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
    The question being--why didn't God possess eternal life before coming to earth? He was not yet man.
    Jesus has two completely different natures.

    Jesus is God almighty...unchanging....he cant change and does not change,
    Jesus is human....and mortal...and ages changes, and dies.
    From the Forum RULES : "As you know, the Walter Martin website takes the position that Mormon theology is not Christian theology. Use of the term "LDS Christian" is inaccurate and misleading, and as such is not acceptable on this board."

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    Quote Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post
    Jesus has two completely different natures.

    Jesus is God almighty...unchanging....he cant change and does not change,
    Jesus is human....and mortal...and ages changes, and dies.
    Alan--I am referring to Jesus Christ--before He became a man:

    Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post So--did Jesus Christ have eternal life before He became mortal and died?
    Quote Originally Posted by alanmolstad View PostQUESTION : So--did Jesus Christ have eternal life before He became mortal and died?
    ANSWER : No.
    What is your evidence God did not possess eternal life before His incarnation?

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    Quote Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
    Alan--I am referring to Jesus Christ--before He became a man:




    Known as the WORD in John 1:1
    The WORD is unchanging...eternal...the very perfect example eternal life, in that the Word is God Almighty...and God not only does not change,God CANT change.




    questions?
    From the Forum RULES : "As you know, the Walter Martin website takes the position that Mormon theology is not Christian theology. Use of the term "LDS Christian" is inaccurate and misleading, and as such is not acceptable on this board."

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    Quote Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post





    What is your evidence God did not possess eternal life before His incarnation?
    are my posts even showing up there?

    To ask such a question of me kinda shows that Im either not using words you can understand, or you are not reading what im saying at all....
    From the Forum RULES : "As you know, the Walter Martin website takes the position that Mormon theology is not Christian theology. Use of the term "LDS Christian" is inaccurate and misleading, and as such is not acceptable on this board."

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    thing is....
    I was thinking about it Im growing concerned that you may not know what the Bible is teachings us about Jesus, so Im just going to toss out this post to tell you about Christ from a Christian point of view....

    In case you have the wrong idea about what Im saying....here is what is the Teaching of Christ:


    Jesus has 2 totally different natures.
    Jesus is fully 100% God
    because Jesus is God, his nature is unable to change in even the smallest way.
    God never gets old...never learns anything new...never forgets anything.
    God cant change.

    Before Jesus took on to himself his 2nd nature,he was known as the WORD in John 1:1

    But then in that same section of the book of John we learn that the "WORD became flesh"
    This is talking about the addition of a 2nd nature to the WORD.
    The nature of a normal human was now part of the story.

    Human nature is subject to age,,,Jesus got older...Jesus died.

    So the human nature of Jesus died....But not his divine nature.
    Jesus never stopped being God.
    Jesus never stopped being all that the nature of God Almighty is.
    And God never dies...
    God is eternal Life.

    Yet Jesus died...
    and was totally dead for 3days...
    From the Forum RULES : "As you know, the Walter Martin website takes the position that Mormon theology is not Christian theology. Use of the term "LDS Christian" is inaccurate and misleading, and as such is not acceptable on this board."

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    Quote Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post
    Known as the WORD in John 1:1
    The WORD is unchanging...eternal...
    Well--if He is unchanging -then when did God obtain eternal life?

    Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post So--did Jesus Christ have eternal life before He became mortal and died?
    Quote Originally Posted by alanmolstad View PostQUESTION : So--did Jesus Christ have eternal life before He became mortal and died?
    ANSWER : No.

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    Quote Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
    Well--if He is unchanging -then when did God obtain eternal life?
    Off hand I would say that if a person has a concept of God that has their god needing to obtain eternal life?....then I would say someone needs to back-that-school-bus-the -heck up....


    God does not change....
    (see http://biblehub.com/malachi/3-6.htm)

    Everything created is subject to time,,,subject to age....and subject to death.

    But He who created all can not change.
    God does not change for God cant change.
    From the Forum RULES : "As you know, the Walter Martin website takes the position that Mormon theology is not Christian theology. Use of the term "LDS Christian" is inaccurate and misleading, and as such is not acceptable on this board."

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    any questions on the two different natures of Jesus?
    From the Forum RULES : "As you know, the Walter Martin website takes the position that Mormon theology is not Christian theology. Use of the term "LDS Christian" is inaccurate and misleading, and as such is not acceptable on this board."

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    Quote Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post
    Off hand I would say that if a person has a concept of God that has their god needing to obtain eternal life?....then I would say someone needs to back-that-school-bus-the -heck up....
    You might want to consider that:

    Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post So--did Jesus Christ have eternal life before He became mortal and died?
    Quote Originally Posted by alanmolstad View PostQUESTION : So--did Jesus Christ have eternal life before He became mortal and died? ANSWER : No.

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