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Thread: Adam in the Garden

  1. #101
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    Quote Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post

    Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post
    I am very disappointed that you would not drop back and answer the questions I ask you on post 36.

    I find this to be a sign that you are not really all that interested in a conversation with me,as you know this was important to me and I had taken my time to make this a better conversation via post 36
    As I have already stated--your post on the two natures of Christ(post36) has nothing to do with the point discussed, as you freely admitted:

    Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post The humanity of Jesus did not even exist before the incarnation
    My question surrounds around why you don't believe Christ possessed eternal life BEFORE His Humanity:

    Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post QUESTION : So--did Jesus Christ have eternal life before He became mortal and died? ANSWER : No.
    So--God did not possess eternal life before His Incarnation?

  2. #102
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    Quote Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post

    My question surrounds around why you don't believe Christ possessed eternal life BEFORE His Humanity:




    Jesus has two totally different natures.
    Jesus is both God and man.

    The divine nature of Christ has eternal life at all times.
    The human nature of Christ did not have eternal life until after the resurrection.


    This why I have never said that "God did not have eternal life before the incarnation"....(remember how that fact came up?)

    But the Bible tells us that the WORD "became" flesh.
    The WORD was not always flesh.
    The flesh that the WORD became did not have eternal life until the resurrection.
    That is why when we are speaking of just his human nature we make sure people understand that Jesus did not have eternal life in his flesh until after the resurrection, yet at the very same time Jesus always had eternal life due to fact he is also fully God.




    any questions?
    From the Forum RULES : "As you know, the Walter Martin website takes the position that Mormon theology is not Christian theology. Use of the term "LDS Christian" is inaccurate and misleading, and as such is not acceptable on this board."

  3. #103
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    Quote Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post
    Jesus has two totally different natures.
    Jesus is both God and man.

    The divine nature of Christ has eternal life at all times.
    Are you claiming Christ did not have a divine nature prior to His incarnation?

    Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post QUESTION : So--did Jesus Christ have eternal life before He became mortal and died? ANSWER : No.

  4. #104
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    Quote Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
    Are you claiming Christ did not have a divine nature prior to His incarnation?
    Jesus had (and has) divine nature at all times.
    Eternal and everlasting life...

    But the WORD became flesh, and this is where and when the WORD became a man, and had a human nature.
    Before this the WORD did not have a human nature...

    This means that when looking only at the human nature of Jesus we see that he did not have eternal life in his human nature until after the resurrection.
    That is when the human nature of Christ first has eternal life, having been raised to eternal life from the dead.


    any questions?
    From the Forum RULES : "As you know, the Walter Martin website takes the position that Mormon theology is not Christian theology. Use of the term "LDS Christian" is inaccurate and misleading, and as such is not acceptable on this board."

  5. #105
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    Quote Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post
    Jesus had (and has) divine nature at all times.
    Eternal and everlasting life...
    Then how do you explain your testimony here?

    Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post QUESTION : So--did Jesus Christ have eternal life before He became mortal and died? ANSWER : No.

  6. #106
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    Quote Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
    Then how do you explain your testimony here?

    When we think of Jesus we always have to remember that Jesus is 2 natures in the one person.

    jesus is both God and man.

    As God, yes, Jesus always has eternal life and is timeless and everlasting.

    As man, "No, Jesus did not have eternal life" until after he was raised from the dead.




    Is that, really too hard for you to understand?
    I could do some looking around for a Walter Martin video that is on the topic for you to watch if you like?
    Last edited by alanmolstad; 11-26-2016 at 06:01 AM.
    From the Forum RULES : "As you know, the Walter Martin website takes the position that Mormon theology is not Christian theology. Use of the term "LDS Christian" is inaccurate and misleading, and as such is not acceptable on this board."

  7. #107
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    Quote Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post
    When we think of Jesus we always have to remember that Jesus is 2 natures in the one person.
    But you have already clarified that:

    Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post The humanity of Jesus did not even exist before the incarnation
    If your above testimony is true--how are you relating the humanity of Christ into your testimony here?

    Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post QUESTION : So--did Jesus Christ have eternal life before He became mortal and died? ANSWER : No.
    As man, "No, Jesus did not have eternal life" until after he was raised from the dead.
    But your testimony above is in reference to before Jesus became a man. You testified Jesus's humanity did not exist before His Incarnation.

    So--why are you resorting to the humanity of Jesus--when you testified Jesus' humanity did not exist before His Incarnation? If it didn't exist--then why are you running to that retort?

    Again--why didn't Christ possess eternal life before His Incarnation?

  8. #108
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    Quote Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
    Again--why didn't Christ possess eternal life before His Incarnation?
    Jesus did not possess eternal life in his humanity before his resurrection.

    At that moment that he was raised to life out of the grave, he from then on had eternal life in his human nature.
    From the Forum RULES : "As you know, the Walter Martin website takes the position that Mormon theology is not Christian theology. Use of the term "LDS Christian" is inaccurate and misleading, and as such is not acceptable on this board."

  9. #109
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    Quote Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post
    Jesus did not possess eternal life in his humanity before his resurrection.
    But your testimony was Jesus did not have His humanity before His incarnation:

    Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post The humanity of Jesus did not even exist before the incarnation
    If that is so--then your point above about humanity is not applicable here:

    Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post QUESTION : So--did Jesus Christ have eternal life before He became mortal and died? ANSWER : No.
    Again--why didn't Christ possess eternal life before His Incarnation?

  10. #110
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    Quote Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
    But your testimony was Jesus did not have His humanity before His incarnation:


    Yes, while at the same time Jesus always had eternal life.
    From the Forum RULES : "As you know, the Walter Martin website takes the position that Mormon theology is not Christian theology. Use of the term "LDS Christian" is inaccurate and misleading, and as such is not acceptable on this board."

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    Quote Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post



    Again--why didn't Christ possess eternal life before His Incarnation?
    Jesus did not have eternal life before the resurrection.
    From the Forum RULES : "As you know, the Walter Martin website takes the position that Mormon theology is not Christian theology. Use of the term "LDS Christian" is inaccurate and misleading, and as such is not acceptable on this board."

  12. #112
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    Quote Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post
    Yes, while at the same time Jesus always had eternal life.
    Alan, IMO--that is a very confused statement, in light of your previous statement:

    Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post QUESTION : So--did Jesus Christ have eternal life before He became mortal and died? ANSWER : No.
    Could you explain for us how Jesus always had eternal life--and did not have it before he became mortal and died?

    Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post Jesus did not possess eternal life in his humanity before his resurrection.
    How are you collating your statements together?

  13. #113
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    Quote Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post



    Could you explain for us how Jesus always had eternal life--and did not have it before he became mortal and died?


    ?
    Yes....


    Jesus has two totally different natures.
    From the Forum RULES : "As you know, the Walter Martin website takes the position that Mormon theology is not Christian theology. Use of the term "LDS Christian" is inaccurate and misleading, and as such is not acceptable on this board."

  14. #114
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    Quote Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post
    Yes....Jesus has two totally different natures.
    That's fine, Alan--but it does not tally up to your contradictory statements:

    Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post The humanity of Jesus did not even exist before the incarnation
    Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post QUESTION : So--did Jesus Christ have eternal life before He became mortal and died? ANSWER : No.
    Originally Posted by alanmolstad View PostYes, while at the same time Jesus always had eternal life.

  15. #115
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    Quote Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
    That's fine, Alan--but it does not tally up to your contradictory statements:
    Many times people see what they think must be a "contradiction" only to later learn that all they needed to do was look at things in their correct context to see how all things walk hand in hand with each other.
    From the Forum RULES : "As you know, the Walter Martin website takes the position that Mormon theology is not Christian theology. Use of the term "LDS Christian" is inaccurate and misleading, and as such is not acceptable on this board."

  16. #116
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    Quote Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post
    Jesus did not have eternal life before the resurrection.
    Quote Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post
    Yes, while at the same time Jesus always had eternal life.
    "Many times people see what they think must be a "contradiction" only to later learn that all they needed to do was look at things in their correct context to see how all things walk hand in hand with each other. "
    From the Forum RULES : "As you know, the Walter Martin website takes the position that Mormon theology is not Christian theology. Use of the term "LDS Christian" is inaccurate and misleading, and as such is not acceptable on this board."

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    Quote Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post
    "Many times people see what they think must be a "contradiction" only to later learn that all they needed to do was look at things in their correct context to see how all things walk hand in hand with each other. "
    Fair enough, Alan--we'll await your explanation on how you collate these statements:

    Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post The humanity of Jesus did not even exist before the incarnation
    Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post QUESTION : So--did Jesus Christ have eternal life before He became mortal and died? ANSWER : No.
    Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post Yes, while at the same time Jesus always had eternal life.

  18. #118
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    Quote Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
    Fair enough, Alan--we'll await your explanation on how you collate these statements:
    In their context.


    The truth is, because we are talking about a person with two totally different natures, many of the things we say about Christ when talking about his Divine nature will not be true about his human nature....and the other way around.


    So this is why we can say that "Jesus did not have eternal life before the resurrection, yet a the same time understand that Jesus always had eternal life."

    At first when a non-Christian reads such a sentence all they see is the clear contradictions with in it..>

    "Alan how can you say that Jesus both had and did not have eternal life at the very same time?"
    To the non-Christian it just seems crazy.


    But if given time and the chance to understand the full context, then the Non-Christian can begin to understand and see things in a new and brighter light.


    What we have to always keep in mind is that Jesus has two totally different natures...
    This is why we can understand my statement above, and how it is all walking hand in hand.


    Lets go over it and take time to look at the context of the words.

    "Jesus did not have eternal life before the resurrection, yet a the same time understand that Jesus always had eternal life."


    Jesus (The God/Man) did not have eternal life(When only talking about his human nature) before the resurrection, yet a the same time understand that Jesus always had eternal life (When talking about his Divine nature as God Almighty)."
    From the Forum RULES : "As you know, the Walter Martin website takes the position that Mormon theology is not Christian theology. Use of the term "LDS Christian" is inaccurate and misleading, and as such is not acceptable on this board."

  19. #119
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    Quote Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post
    In their context.
    Yes, Alan--in their context:

    Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post The humanity of Jesus did not even exist before the incarnation
    Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post QUESTION : So--did Jesus Christ have eternal life before He became mortal and died? ANSWER : No.
    Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post Yes, while at the same time Jesus always had eternal life.

  20. #120
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    Quote Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
    Yes, Alan--in their context:
    Yes, a good Bible student will always want to look at all things in their correct context.

    If I ever write something that you dont understand how it fits within the christian faith?...just ask.
    From the Forum RULES : "As you know, the Walter Martin website takes the position that Mormon theology is not Christian theology. Use of the term "LDS Christian" is inaccurate and misleading, and as such is not acceptable on this board."

  21. #121
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    Quote Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post
    Yes, a good Bible student will always want to look at all things in their correct context.

    If I ever write something that you dont understand how it fits within the christian faith?...just ask.
    I did. How do you collate these contradictory statements together?

    Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post The humanity of Jesus did not even exist before the incarnation
    Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post QUESTION : So--did Jesus Christ have eternal life before He became mortal and died? ANSWER : No.
    Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post Yes, while at the same time Jesus always had eternal life.

  22. #122
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    Quote Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
    I did. How do you collate these contradictory statements together?
    If you have trouble understanding the context of how every word I have said is totally correct ?...I might suggest you drop back and go over the stuff about Jesus I talked about in a posted comment we call Number #36
    From the Forum RULES : "As you know, the Walter Martin website takes the position that Mormon theology is not Christian theology. Use of the term "LDS Christian" is inaccurate and misleading, and as such is not acceptable on this board."

  23. #123
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    Quote Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post
    If you have trouble understanding the context of how every word I have said is totally correct ?...
    I believe most people would have a hard time reconciling these statements to one another:

    Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post The humanity of Jesus did not even exist before the incarnation
    Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post QUESTION : So--did Jesus Christ have eternal life before He became mortal and died? ANSWER : No.
    Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post Yes, while at the same time Jesus always had eternal life.

    I have noticed you have not attempted to collate them either.

  24. #124
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    Quote Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
    I believe most people would have a hard time reconciling these statements to one another:

    Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post The humanity of Jesus did not even exist before the incarnation
    Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post QUESTION : So--did Jesus Christ have eternal life before He became mortal and died? ANSWER : No.
    Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post Yes, while at the same time Jesus always had eternal life.

    I have noticed you have not attempted to collate them either.
    Let's first establish that LDS/Mormons are not saved, and therefore do not have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, and therefore the ability to understand this doctrine. The Holy Spirit was given to "believers" only, who teaches us all things. (John 14:28).

    Unfortunately, Mormons do not receive this Advocate, and therefore do not have the benefit of this intimate insight into the Gospel, and that's why you have such a difficult time understanding Christian doctrines.

    It has already been explained that Jesus has two natures, and that should cause a rational person to easily understand what has been said. But allow me to put into laymen terms. Perhaps that will help.

    God has chosen to manifest Himself in three Persons. God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit. Jesus is BOTH fully God, and fully man. When Jesus was born of the virgin Mary, Jesus the man physically came into existence. That doesn't mean He didn't exist prior to that, but only in Spirit form. God the Son has always existed, since He is God, but Jesus the man did not exist in BOTH human and Divine form until His birth to Mary. That should make sense to anyone trying to understand. You may not agree with the premise, but that is the concept.

    Prior to Christ's human birth, He existed as God the Son and Jesus, but again, God the Son has always existed because He is of the same essence as the Father, but Jesus the human/Divine hybrid did not exist physically until He was born of a human, the virgin Mary.

    This is probably confusing to you because pagans do not have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit and therefore don't have the ability to understand why this was necessary. So I'm not going to try and explain it to you because due to your spiritual ignorance, you would just not understand and we both would become frustrated. I could better use my time by sharing the Gospel with you and pray that the Holy Spirit will tap you on the shoulder and get your attention, and you will turn from paganism and the teachings of false prophets, to the True Jesus Christ and His Good News Gospel of mercy and forgiveness, rather than the impossible gospel of Mormonism.

  25. #125
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    so to review....


    Jesus has two totally different natures.

    The divine nature is pure spirit and can not change and can not die.
    The human nature is mortal and changes and dies.
    From the Forum RULES : "As you know, the Walter Martin website takes the position that Mormon theology is not Christian theology. Use of the term "LDS Christian" is inaccurate and misleading, and as such is not acceptable on this board."

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