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Thread: Adam in the Garden

  1. #26
    alanmolstad
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    no....
    Jesus is both God and man.
    In his human nature Jesus did not have eternal life until after the resurrection.

    again, the fact is that Jesus has two natures..

    What part of my answer do you not get?

  2. #27
    alanmolstad
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    I want you to understand this about Jesus,,,
    So if you have any questions please ask them.

    Or if I have said something in a confusing manner, please ask me to say something differently.

  3. #28
    dberrie2000
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    Quote Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post
    no....Jesus is both God and man.
    In his human nature Jesus did not have eternal life until after the resurrection.
    But my question--and your answer--was before Jesus' incarnation--when He was fully God--and before He became man:

    Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post So--did Jesus Christ have eternal life before He became mortal and died?
    Quote Originally Posted by alanmolstad View PostQUESTION : So--did Jesus Christ have eternal life before He became mortal and died? ANSWER : No.
    So--God did not possess eternal life until when?

  4. #29
    alanmolstad
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    Quote Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
    But my question--and your answer--was before Jesus' incarnation--when He was fully God--and before He became man:





    So--God did not possess eternal life until when?


    and this is the answer....as best as I can write.

    Jesus has two totally different natures, operating within him at the same time.

    How they do this no one knows?


    Before Jesus came to earth he was only known as the WORD as talked about in the book of John.

    But then inside the womb of his mother, the WORD became flesh.
    But lets not forget that the WORD still is God.
    The WORD never stopped being God Almighty, and as such the Divine nature of the WORD remained unchanged.

    But the WORD became flesh...
    Human flesh.

    Thus the 2nd nature is fully human.
    This 2nd nature is mortal.
    This human nature that Jesus has is just the same as you and Iare.
    We age,Jesus aged.
    We die, Jesus died.


    So thats how it works.

    The Divine nature never was lost or changed....
    God is always everlasting and eternal,,,(or whatever words you have that describe God as unable to change)





    So to review:
    Jesus has 2 totally different natures in himself.
    The 1st nature is Divine and eternal and unchanging.
    The 2nd nature is mortal.

    Jesus in his humanity was born ( so it had a clear beginning) and died and only then is raised in an everlasting body.
    This is why we look to the resurrection of Christ to be like a guide for our own in the future..
    This is because he is just as mortal and like us in every way...

    Jesus in his divine nature is unchanging and is eternal.

  5. #30
    dberrie2000
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    Quote Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post
    and this is the answer....as best as I can write.

    Jesus has two totally different natures, operating within him at the same time.

    How they do this no one knows?


    Before Jesus came to earth he was only known as the WORD as talked about in the book of John.

    But then inside the womb of his mother, the WORD became flesh.
    But lets not forget that the WORD still is God.
    The WORD never stopped being God Almighty, and as such the Divine nature of the WORD remained unchanged.

    But the WORD became flesh...
    Human flesh.

    Thus the 2nd nature is fully human.
    This 2nd nature is mortal.
    Again Alan--the question, and your answer--had nothing to do with mortality:

    Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post So--did Jesus Christ have eternal life before He became mortal and died?
    Quote Originally Posted by alanmolstad View PostQUESTION : So--did Jesus Christ have eternal life before He became mortal and died? ANSWER : No.

  6. #31
    alanmolstad
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    There is no other answer that I have, or know of.

    I believe my answer is very close to the teaching I received by listing to Walter Martin...
    At this point I guess I could quote some source that perhaps you might catch better than my own words...But that sounds like a lot of work...

    I truly believe I gave you the answer...
    and I think my answer is the only correct answer...
    But there are many other ways of describing what Im saying...

  7. #32
    alanmolstad
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    Quote Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post
    and this is the answer....as best as I can write.

    Jesus has two totally different natures, operating within him at the same time.

    How they do this no one knows?


    Before Jesus came to earth he was only known as the WORD as talked about in the book of John.

    But then inside the womb of his mother, the WORD became flesh.
    But lets not forget that the WORD still is God.
    The WORD never stopped being God Almighty, and as such the Divine nature of the WORD remained unchanged.

    But the WORD became flesh...
    Human flesh.

    Thus the 2nd nature is fully human.
    This 2nd nature is mortal.
    This human nature that Jesus has is just the same as you and Iare.
    We age,Jesus aged.
    We die, Jesus died.



    So thats how it works.

    The Divine nature never was lost or changed....
    God is always everlasting and eternal,,,(or whatever words you have that describe God as unable to change)





    So to review:
    Jesus has 2 totally different natures in himself.
    The 1st nature is Divine and eternal and unchanging.
    The 2nd nature is mortal.

    Jesus in his humanity was born ( so it had a clear beginning) and died and only then is raised in an everlasting body.
    This is why we look to the resurrection of Christ to be like a guide for our own in the future..
    This is because he is just as mortal and like us in every way...

    Jesus in his divine nature is unchanging and is eternal.

    I honestly believe I actually deal a lot with the question of the mortality of Jesus in his human nature...

  8. #33
    dberrie2000
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    Quote Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post
    I honestly believe I actually deal a lot with the question of the mortality of Jesus in his human nature...
    I agree--you did. But I consider it a diversion, as my point was not about the human nature--as the question and answer show:

    Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post So--did Jesus Christ have eternal life before He became mortal and died?
    Quote Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post QUESTION : So--did Jesus Christ have eternal life before He became mortal and died? ANSWER : No.
    Alan--if God did not possess eternal life in the pre-incarnate state--when did God obtain it?

  9. #34
    alanmolstad
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    I think you need a little break to be able to take a fresh look at things...

  10. #35
    alanmolstad
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    If there is a line I have written you would like to to have a 2nd look at to see if it's correct?...just let me know...

  11. #36
    alanmolstad
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    Quote Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
    Alan--if God did not possess eternal life in the pre-incarnate state--when did God obtain it?

    Lets go slow over my answer to see at one point I lose my audience?....


    Jesus has 2 ....TOTALLY DIFFERENT natures.

    questions?

    The Divine nature and the human nature
    Questions?

    The Divine nature of Jesus is always unchanged...for God can not change.
    God does not age...God does not die.
    God is eternal.
    The Divine nature of Christ is always eternal and everlasting and always, always, always alive .

    Questions?

    The human nature of Jesus was created in the womb of Mary.
    The human nature of Jesus was the same as our own nature.
    So Jesus was able to age and die as a typical human.

    Questions?

    These two totally different natures are always present in Jesus.
    They do this in an unknown manner.
    So this allows Jesus to be fully God, (and therefore eternal and living forever)
    and fully human (and therefore mortal)at the same time.

    Questions?

    The divine nature of Christ did not become mortal.
    But the mortal nature of Christ became eternal in the resurrection....as well all Christians.

    Questions?








    There, that should help me understand where I lose you....

  12. #37
    dberrie2000
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    Quote Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post
    If there is a line I have written you would like to to have a 2nd look at to see if it's correct?...just let me know...
    Alan--I've alreaqdy done that--but you keep circling behind your "two different natures" response. My question has nothing to do with the two different natures.

    In fact--it centers in the arena before Christ's Incarnation:

    Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post So--did Jesus Christ have eternal life before He became mortal and died?
    Quote Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post QUESTION : So--did Jesus Christ have eternal life before He became mortal and died? ANSWER : No.
    My question to Alan--if God did not possess eternal life in the eternities, before He became mortal--then when did God acquire eternal life? If God did not posses eternal life until after His mortality--then how could He have offered it to mankind prior to that moment?

  13. #38
    alanmolstad
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    Quote Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
    Alan--I've alreaqdy done that--but you keep circling behind your "two different natures" response. My question has nothing to do with the two different natures.

    In fact--it centers in the arena before Christ's Incarnation:





    My question to Alan--if God did not possess eternal life in the eternities, before He became mortal--then when did God acquire eternal life? If God did not posses eternal life until after His mortality--then how could He have offered it to mankind prior to that moment?
    Lets go slow over my answer to see at one point I lose my audience?....


    Jesus has 2 ....TOTALLY DIFFERENT natures.
    questions?

    The Divine nature and the human nature
    Questions?

    The Divine nature of Jesus is always unchanged...for God can not change.
    God does not age...God does not die.
    God is eternal.
    The Divine nature of Christ is always eternal and everlasting and always, always, always alive .
    Questions?


    The human nature of Jesus was created in the womb of Mary.
    The human nature of Jesus was the same as our own nature.
    So Jesus was able to age and die as a typical human.
    Questions?

    These two totally different natures are always present in Jesus.
    They do this in an unknown manner.
    So this allows Jesus to be fully God, (and therefore eternal and living forever)
    and fully human (and therefore mortal)at the same time.
    Questions?

    The divine nature of Christ did not become mortal.
    But the mortal nature of Christ became eternal in the resurrection....as well all Christians.
    Questions?








    There, that should help me understand where I lose you....
    Last edited by alanmolstad; 11-04-2016 at 08:07 AM.

  14. #39
    alanmolstad
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    Quote Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
    .....when did God acquire eternal life? .....
    You keep asking this like someone in this conversation has said that God had to acquire eternal life?

    Why is that?

    are you on meds or something I should know about?



    As we have seen the Bible teaches that God never acquired eternal life,and I know that is not anything I have ever taught you here.

    My guess is that you are confusing what the Bible teaches with what the Mormons teach...

    Mormons are well known to have such ideas about their god...but Im really only talking about Bible teachings here, so lets not go into that dark hole...
    Last edited by alanmolstad; 11-04-2016 at 09:56 AM.

  15. #40
    alanmolstad
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    tell you what Im going to do.

    I will quote your comment, and then add my response in another color...(Blue)and in a slightly bigger text so you can read along what you posted,and how I respond to things step by step.


    Here we go!




    Quote Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
    My question to Alan--if God did not possess eternal life God always is eternal life!
    Who said that God in his divine nature had to become eternal?...not me!...lets go on
    - in the eternities, before He became mortal--then when did God acquire eternal life? Again, God has been the same and God can not change...God is not able to stop being God...God is eternal life, thus God will always be in his divine nature eternal life...If God did not posses eternal life until after His mortality Christ has two totally different natures, Jesus is both God and man. The humanity of Jesus suffered death, his divinity cant die The human nature of Jesus was mortal, the Divine nature of Jesus is eternal life.--then how could He have offered it to mankind prior to that moment?


    I hope that helps you see what Im talking about and how it address your questions about the nature of God's Son.
    Last edited by alanmolstad; 11-04-2016 at 01:25 PM.

  16. #41
    dberrie2000
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    Quote Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post

    I will quote your comment, and then add my response in another color...(Blue)and in a slightly bigger text so you can read along what you posted,and how I respond to things step by step.


    Here we go!

    I hope that helps you see what Im talking about and how it address your questions about the nature of God's Son.
    Alan--it muddies the water even further:

    Quote Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post
    God always is eternal life! Who said that God in his divine nature had to become eternal?...not me!...lets go on - in the eternities, before He became mortal--then when did God acquire eternal life? Again, God has been the same and God can not change...God is not able to stop being God...God is eternal life, thus God will always be in his divine nature eternal life...If God did not posses eternal life until after His mortality Christ has two totally different natures, Jesus is both God and man. The humanity of Jesus suffered death, his divinity cant die The human nature of Jesus was mortal, the Divine nature of Jesus is eternal life.
    Please do collate that with your previous statement:

    Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post So--did Jesus Christ have eternal life before He became mortal and died?
    Quote Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post QUESTION : So--did Jesus Christ have eternal life before He became mortal and died? ANSWER : No.

  17. #42
    alanmolstad
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    No.
    What I want you to do is drop back to post number 36 and answer each time I ask you if you have any questions with a Y for yes and a N for no

  18. #43
    alanmolstad
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    Here is what I "think"is your problem.

    Every time I say that the mortal human natureof Christ was not born eternal but just the same mortal flesh as you and I you react by asking how can "God" not be eternal???

    Every time I say that Jesus is both God and Man you react by asking then how can he not be eternal if he is God?

    Thats the problem here, you have overlooked the two different natures that Jesus has.

    So when I say that Jesus was mortal, aged and died you ask, how God can die?

    When I say that God is eternal and cant change, cant die , you ask when did God become eternal?
    Last edited by alanmolstad; 11-05-2016 at 07:39 AM.

  19. #44
    alanmolstad
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    This is why I want you to drop back to my post #36 above and go over the statements I make about Jesus, and after each one decide for yourself if the statement I make is where you see a point that needs to be addressed???

    Then we can see where the issue is at that you have a problem with?

  20. #45
    alanmolstad
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    Walter Martin used to teach that you have to first work on defining the terms before any conversation about Jesus gets anywhere.

    Thats why I want you to drop back and go over my questions I ask you at post 36.

    I want to know the moment you call something I have said into question.
    I want to know where you think something does not add up?

    The reason is that I think I should define in a lot more clear terms who Jesus is, and what is true about him, so that when I say "Jesus" you know who I have in my mind whan I say that name.

    If you dont go over the post 36 questions, Im afraid that we are just spinning our wheels, because every time I say, "Jesus is God" you ask, "How could God die?"

    And when I say "Jesus was born a normal mortal " you ask "If Jesus is God and was created mortal, when did God become eternal?"

    and we go round and round....

  21. #46
    dberrie2000
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    Quote Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post
    Here is what I "think"is your problem.

    Every time I say that the mortal human natureof Christ was not born eternal but just the same mortal flesh as you and I you react by asking how can "God" not be eternal???

    Every time I say that Jesus is both God and Man you react by asking then how can he not be eternal if he is God?

    Thats the problem here, you have overlooked the two different natures that Jesus has.
    As I have already stated--I'm not interested in what you believe about the two different natures of Jesus--and I have not engaged you on that subject.

    What I am interested in--and find you divert into the two different natures of Jesus every time I ask you--is to collate your statements to your answer here:

    Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post So--did Jesus Christ have eternal life before He became mortal and died?
    Quote Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post QUESTION : So--did Jesus Christ have eternal life before He became mortal and died? ANSWER : No.
    Alan--please don't go to the two different natures diversion. As you state--and I also--this is BEFORE the Incarnation. Before mortality, so it can't involve the two different natures of Christ.

    Why do you believe God did not possess eternal life BEFORE He came to earth--in the flesh?

    When Did God obtain eternal life--if He did not possess it prior to the Incarnation?

    Again--I'm not interested in your two different natures--but God BEFORE He was Incarnated--and why He did not possess eternal life at that point--according to you:

    Quote Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post QUESTION : So--did Jesus Christ have eternal life before He became mortal and died? ANSWER : No.

  22. #47
    alanmolstad
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    I am very disappointed that you would not drop back and answer the questions I ask you on post 36.

    I find this to be a sign that you are not really all that interested in a conversation with me,as you know this was important to me and I had taken my time to make this a better conversation via post 36

  23. #48
    alanmolstad
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    Because you refused to do as requested, I will go the extra mile for you,yet again, and go over your post and add my own comments so as to show you who Jesus is, and how this all works


    (This would have been a lot more easy had to just went and answered my questions at post 36)

    I will add my own comments to your post, in again a slightly larger text and a different color


    Quote Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
    As I have already stated--I'm not interested in what you believe about the two different natures of Jesus--and I have not engaged you on that subject.

    You can not discuss the person of Christ without dealing with the fact that he is both God and man ....
    To forget he is God is to make an error
    To forget he is but man is an error.

    Only when you look at the person of Christ and keep in mind that he is both God and man will you understand any of what Im saying

    What I am interested in--and find you divert into the two different natures of Jesus every time I ask you--is to collate your statements to your answer here:





    Alan--please don't go to the two different natures diversion. As you state--and I also--this is BEFORE the Incarnation. Before mortality, so it can't involve the two different natures of Christ.

    Why do you believe God did not possess eternal life BEFORE He came to earth--in the flesh?



    Jesus has two natures.
    Jesus has the eternal nature of God, and as such is unchanged, and eternal and always has been and will always be.
    Jesus became human, and became mortal.
    He did not stop being God, did not stop being eternal.
    Known as the "WORD"in John 1:1 he becomes flesh and with this 2nd nature he is now mortal.
    Jesus grew old, he aged, and he died.
    So we have to keep always in mind that Jesus has two natures.



    When Did God obtain eternal life--if He did not possess it prior to the Incarnation?

    God cant change...
    God cant get old
    God cant die.




    Again--I'm not interested in your two different natures--but God BEFORE He was Incarnated--and why He did not possess eternal life at that point--according to you



    Because Jesus has two totally different natures, he is both God Almighty and human.
    As God Jesus is timeless and eternal
    as human Jesus is mortal with a human nature, he was born with a human body of flesh that was not eternal until after the resurrection.

    Thats the answer to your question,

    I believe it should handle all these types of questions that deal so much with the two natures of Christ.

    :


    I hope that makes things more clear as to who Jesus is.
    Last edited by alanmolstad; 11-06-2016 at 12:09 AM.

  24. #49
    alanmolstad
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    Quote Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
    You might want to consider that:
    If you were to actually quote me in context,you would see that Im addressing only the human nature of Christ...not his divine nature.

    The human nature of flesh was not eternal before the resurrection following his death.

    The Divine nature is always eternal.

    God is always eternal.
    But Jesus's body was not born eternal, but had to die and thus that proves Jesus's human nature was mortal.

  25. #50
    alanmolstad
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    Here, now noticethe context:

    Quote Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post
    QUESTION : So--did Jesus Christ have eternal life before He became mortal and died?
    ANSWER : No.

    Remember the Bible teaches that Jesus was fully 100% God Almighty...AND....fully 100% human...

    and as a man the Bible teaches that Jesus is just the same as you and I.

    If the human body of Jesus was different in any way than Adam or different than you and I, then his death and resurrection could not be used in the Text as a guide to our own resurrections.

    But the Bible does use the body of Christ as a guide to our own body resurrections.

    The Bible is clear that Jesus is a "man"

    The same term used to talk about Adam before he was even created...."Let us make "man"..."

    So when Jesus was incarnate he was incarnate into this world in the flesh of a normal man....anything different would mean he was something other than a man...



    So to review.
    When Adam was created he had within his mortal body the ability and need to live forever by eating the Tree of Life.

    When the God wrapped himself in the flesh of a human, he did so with the flesh of a normal mortal man.

    At no point was the human flesh of Jesus eternal, everlasting, or could be said to have "lived forever" before the incarnation inside Mary and before the resurrection of Christ in the tomb.

    If you "live forever", you dont ever die nor can you ever die.
    (Hence the word "forever")


    If you have flesh that has "eternal life" (as I will have one day)that flesh will live eternally ...

    That is why its called "eternal life" and not "temporary life">




    Now I was asked if it is true that it was the *** of the Tree of Life to offer mankind eternal life in the garden,what does that now for us ?

    My answer is to point out that in the story of the resurrection of all the dead as told to us in the Book of Revelation, we see a return of the tree of Life.

    So it seems that God did not just plant the tree of life in the garden ,and then had to give upon it's mission after all.

    God's word tells us that God did not uproot the Tree of life.

    Its still there in the garden....

    In the end the Tree of Life will still do what it was created to do....

    If you go back and look at what Im saying in the correct context you can see easy that Im just talking about the Human nature of Christ.
    The human nature of Christ has a very clear beginning in the story.

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