Smith's invented religion is his own

[Christian]

None of the junk smith originated came from God. There is no evidence at all that joe smith didn't simply invent the whole religion himself.

After all joe and ollie cowdery went out into the woods and 'played church' 'ordaining' and 'bapizing' each other while still dirty and in their own sins, violating their own scam. Supposedly that gave them 'authority' to act for God.

Sorry boys, but 'playing church' never gave anyone any REAL authority, CERTAINLY NO AUTHORITY FROM GOD.

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by Christian

[COLOR=#0000cd]None of the junk smith originated came from God. There is no evidence at all that joe smith didn't simply invent the whole religion himself.

I believe there is:

Testimony of Three Witnesses

Be it known unto all nations, kindreds, tongues, and people, unto whom this work shall come: That we, through the grace of God the Father, and our Lord Jesus Christ, have seen the plates which contain this record, which is a record of the people of Nephi, and also of the Lamanites, their brethren, and also of the people of Jared, who came from the tower of which hath been spoken. And we also know that they have been translated by the gift and power of God, for his voice hath declared it unto us; wherefore we know of a surety that the work is true. And we also testify that we have seen the engravings which are upon the plates; and they have been shown unto us by the power of God, and not of man. And we declare with words of soberness, that an angel of God came down from heaven, and he brought and laid before our eyes, that we beheld and saw the plates, and the engravings thereon; and we know that it is by the grace of God the Father, and our Lord Jesus Christ, that we beheld and bear record that these things are true. And it is marvelous in our eyes. Nevertheless, the voice of the Lord commanded us that we should bear record of it; wherefore, to be obedient unto the commandments of God, we bear testimony of these things. And we know that if we are faithful in Christ, we shall rid our garments of the blood of all men, and be found spotless before the judgment-seat of Christ, and shall dwell with him eternally in the heavens. And the honor be to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Ghost, which is one God. Amen.
Oliver Cowdery
David Whitmer
Martin Harris

Testimony of Eight Witnesses

Be it known unto all nations, kindreds, tongues, and people, unto whom this work shall come: That Joseph Smith, Jun., the translator of this work, has shown unto us the plates of which hath been spoken, which have the appearance of gold; and as many of the leaves as the said Smith has translated we did handle with our hands; and we also saw the engravings thereon, all of which has the appearance of ancient work, and of curious workmanship. And this we bear record with words of soberness, that the said Smith has shown unto us, for we have seen and hefted, and know of a surety that the said Smith has got the plates of which we have spoken. And we give our names unto the world, to witness unto the world that which we have seen. And we lie not, God bearing witness of it.

Christian Whitmer
Jacob Whitmer
Peter Whitmer, Jun.
John Whitmer
Hiram Page
Joseph Smith, Sen.
Hyrum Smith
Samuel H. Smith

[Christian]

Let's see now. . .it is YOUR CONTENTION that joe smith's buddies actually SAW (though they said they 'saw them' with 'spiritual eyes" and not 'natural eyes' later on), and that their 'seeing' such stuff showed joe smith and his religion to be from God?

Naah, it simply doesn't follow logically.

and the internal lies and contradictions of your religion show smith to be a liar and a false prophet. THAT does not reflect the character or patterns of God's Word, (the BIBLE) OR GOD'S PEOPLE.

Unbiased HISTORY shows smith to be a common 'peepstone gazer' and a common criminal who tried to shoot his way out of jail.

SOME 'prophet!' SOME false religion!

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by Christian

Let's see now. . .it is YOUR CONTENTION that joe smith's buddies actually SAW (though they said they 'saw them' with 'spiritual eyes" and not 'natural eyes' later on),

Yes, Christian the eight claimed they saw and handled the plates. The three had a heavenly manifestation, IE--vision--which they saw the plates in vision.

Both an earthly and a heavenly manifestation.

Testimony of Three Witnesses

Be it known unto all nations, kindreds, tongues, and people, unto whom this work shall come: That we, through the grace of God the Father, and our Lord Jesus Christ, have seen the plates which contain this record, which is a record of the people of Nephi, and also of the Lamanites, their brethren, and also of the people of Jared, who came from the tower of which hath been spoken. And we also know that they have been translated by the gift and power of God, for his voice hath declared it unto us; wherefore we know of a surety that the work is true. And we also testify that we have seen the engravings which are upon the plates; and they have been shown unto us by the power of God, and not of man. And we declare with words of soberness, that an angel of God came down from heaven, and he brought and laid before our eyes, that we beheld and saw the plates, and the engravings thereon; and we know that it is by the grace of God the Father, and our Lord Jesus Christ, that we beheld and bear record that these things are true. And it is marvelous in our eyes. Nevertheless, the voice of the Lord commanded us that we should bear record of it; wherefore, to be obedient unto the commandments of God, we bear testimony of these things. And we know that if we are faithful in Christ, we shall rid our garments of the blood of all men, and be found spotless before the judgment-seat of Christ, and shall dwell with him eternally in the heavens. And the honor be to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Ghost, which is one God. Amen.
Oliver Cowdery
David Whitmer
Martin Harris

Testimony of Eight Witnesses

Be it known unto all nations, kindreds, tongues, and people, unto whom this work shall come: That Joseph Smith, Jun., the translator of this work, has shown unto us the plates of which hath been spoken, which have the appearance of gold; and as many of the leaves as the said Smith has translated we did handle with our hands; and we also saw the engravings thereon, all of which has the appearance of ancient work, and of curious workmanship. And this we bear record with words of soberness, that the said Smith has shown unto us, for we have seen and hefted, and know of a surety that the said Smith has got the plates of which we have spoken. And we give our names unto the world, to witness unto the world that which we have seen. And we lie not, God bearing witness of it.

Christian Whitmer
Jacob Whitmer
Peter Whitmer, Jun.
John Whitmer
Hiram Page
Joseph Smith, Sen.
Hyrum Smith
Samuel H. Smith

[MickeyS]

Originally Posted by Christian

None of the junk smith originated came from God. There is no evidence at all that joe smith didn't simply invent the whole religion himself.

After all joe and ollie cowdery went out into the woods and 'played church' 'ordaining' and 'bapizing' each other while still dirty and in their own sins, violating their own scam. Supposedly that gave them 'authority' to act for God.

Sorry boys, but 'playing church' never gave anyone any REAL authority, CERTAINLY NO AUTHORITY FROM GOD.

Wow....same old junk every time I pop on every few months....how incredibly sad.

I see not many people really care what is being said....should tell ya something, like mean-spirited rhetoric gets old when the shock value wears off. Can't even get a rise out of anyone anymore.

[Christian]

Smith's buddies. NOT ONE WORD OF THE BOM WAS TRANSLATED BY THEM. NOT ONE "REAL" WITNESS to what the text supposedly SAYS.

And not one word about 'priesthood authority, god being a man first, but never having not been god, etc etc etc either

[Christian]

Originally Posted by MickeyS

Wow....same old junk every time I pop on every few months....how incredibly sad.

I see not many people really care what is being said....should tell ya something, like mean-spirited rhetoric gets old when the shock value wears off. Can't even get a rise out of anyone anymore.

Same old junk about the same old junky religion. . .yep.

And the same old evasive 'answers' by the mormons who refuse to answer the challenges, but change the subject, go on personal attacks, or simply ignore the challenges.

Lots of cowardly 'responses,' charges of "yer hateful, mean, and socially unacceptable" kind of stuff. . .but no honest answers, of course.

Why should we believe any of your religion when its members behave like that?

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by Christian

. NOT ONE WORD OF THE BOM WAS TRANSLATED BY THEM. NOT ONE "REAL" WITNESS to what the text supposedly SAYS.

And when you produce any original autograph to the Biblical text, then you might have an argument.

The LDS believe the Bible to be the Word of God, regardless of any original transcripts.

The Book of Mormon still has some of the original m****cript extant today.

Either way, whether we have original m****cripts or not--the LDS have the faith to believe the Bible and the Book of Mormon as God's Word.

That seems to be the footprint of God--whenever He appears to mankind--He reveals something that has never been expounded openly to mankind before, and a written record, with witnesses--that bear witness to His reality.

We find that in Abraham, Moses, the NT writers, and the Book of Mormon.

Testimony of Three Witnesses

Be it known unto all nations, kindreds, tongues, and people, unto whom this work shall come: That we, through the grace of God the Father, and our Lord Jesus Christ, have seen the plates which contain this record, which is a record of the people of Nephi, and also of the Lamanites, their brethren, and also of the people of Jared, who came from the tower of which hath been spoken. And we also know that they have been translated by the gift and power of God, for his voice hath declared it unto us; wherefore we know of a surety that the work is true. And we also testify that we have seen the engravings which are upon the plates; and they have been shown unto us by the power of God, and not of man. And we declare with words of soberness, that an angel of God came down from heaven, and he brought and laid before our eyes, that we beheld and saw the plates, and the engravings thereon; and we know that it is by the grace of God the Father, and our Lord Jesus Christ, that we beheld and bear record that these things are true. And it is marvelous in our eyes. Nevertheless, the voice of the Lord commanded us that we should bear record of it; wherefore, to be obedient unto the commandments of God, we bear testimony of these things. And we know that if we are faithful in Christ, we shall rid our garments of the blood of all men, and be found spotless before the judgment-seat of Christ, and shall dwell with him eternally in the heavens. And the honor be to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Ghost, which is one God. Amen.

Oliver Cowdery
David Whitmer
Martin Harris


Testimony of Eight Witnesses

Be it known unto all nations, kindreds, tongues, and people, unto whom this work shall come: That Joseph Smith, Jun., the translator of this work, has shown unto us the plates of which hath been spoken, which have the appearance of gold; and as many of the leaves as the said Smith has translated we did handle with our hands; and we also saw the engravings thereon, all of which has the appearance of ancient work, and of curious workmanship. And this we bear record with words of soberness, that the said Smith has shown unto us, for we have seen and hefted, and know of a surety that the said Smith has got the plates of which we have spoken. And we give our names unto the world, to witness unto the world that which we have seen. And we lie not, God bearing witness of it.

Christian Whitmer
Jacob Whitmer
Peter Whitmer, Jun.
John Whitmer
Hiram Page
Joseph Smith, Sen.
Hyrum Smith
Samuel H. Smith

[Christian]

[QUOTE=dberrie2000;170433]And when you produce any original autograph to the Biblical text, then you might have an argument.

The LDS believe the Bible to be the Word of God, regardless of any original transcripts.

The Book of Mormon still has some of the original m****cript extant today.[QUOTE]

Then you should be able to SHOW US SOME OF THE GOLDEN PLATES (the ORIGINAL M****CRIPT). . .UNLESS. . .The supposed 'original m****cript' is nothing more than what joe smith SPOKE to ollie cowdery, his buddy, playing 'religion.'

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by Christian

Then you should be able to SHOW US SOME OF THE GOLDEN PLATES (the ORIGINAL M****CRIPT). . .UNLESS. . .The supposed 'original m****cript' is nothing more than what joe smith SPOKE to ollie cowdery, his buddy, playing 'religion.'

M****cript---From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

"A m****cript (abbreviated MS for singular and MSS for plural) is any document written by hand or typewritten, as opposed to being mechanically printed or reproduced in some automated way.[1] More recently, it is understood to be an author's written, typed, or word-processed copy of a work, as distinguished from the print of the same."

The original m****cript, in part, of the Book of Mormon translation, is still extant.

Testimony of Three Witnesses

Be it known unto all nations, kindreds, tongues, and people, unto whom this work shall come: That we, through the grace of God the Father, and our Lord Jesus Christ, have seen the plates which contain this record, which is a record of the people of Nephi, and also of the Lamanites, their brethren, and also of the people of Jared, who came from the tower of which hath been spoken. And we also know that they have been translated by the gift and power of God, for his voice hath declared it unto us; wherefore we know of a surety that the work is true. And we also testify that we have seen the engravings which are upon the plates; and they have been shown unto us by the power of God, and not of man. And we declare with words of soberness, that an angel of God came down from heaven, and he brought and laid before our eyes, that we beheld and saw the plates, and the engravings thereon; and we know that it is by the grace of God the Father, and our Lord Jesus Christ, that we beheld and bear record that these things are true. And it is marvelous in our eyes. Nevertheless, the voice of the Lord commanded us that we should bear record of it; wherefore, to be obedient unto the commandments of God, we bear testimony of these things. And we know that if we are faithful in Christ, we shall rid our garments of the blood of all men, and be found spotless before the judgment-seat of Christ, and shall dwell with him eternally in the heavens. And the honor be to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Ghost, which is one God. Amen.

Oliver Cowdery
David Whitmer
Martin Harris


Testimony of Eight Witnesses

Be it known unto all nations, kindreds, tongues, and people, unto whom this work shall come: That Joseph Smith, Jun., the translator of this work, has shown unto us the plates of which hath been spoken, which have the appearance of gold; and as many of the leaves as the said Smith has translated we did handle with our hands; and we also saw the engravings thereon, all of which has the appearance of ancient work, and of curious workmanship. And this we bear record with words of soberness, that the said Smith has shown unto us, for we have seen and hefted, and know of a surety that the said Smith has got the plates of which we have spoken. And we give our names unto the world, to witness unto the world that which we have seen. And we lie not, God bearing witness of it.

Christian Whitmer
Jacob Whitmer
Peter Whitmer, Jun.
John Whitmer
Hiram Page
Joseph Smith, Sen.
Hyrum Smith
Samuel H. Smith

[Christian]

[QUOTE=dberrie2000;170458]M****cript---From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

"A m****cript (abbreviated MS for singular and MSS for plural) is any document written by hand or typewritten, as opposed to being mechanically printed or reproduced in some automated way.[1] More recently, it is understood to be an author's written, typed, or word-processed copy of a work, as distinguished from the print of the same."

[QUOTE]

So YOU HAVE NO PLATES (the ORIGINAL hand made m****cripts) NOTHING AT ALL TO CHECK JOE SMITH'S imaginary 'translation' from. JUST WHAT I HAVE BEEN SAYING ALL ALONG.

All you have is the nonsense from joe smith's 'let's play religion' buddies. . .

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by Christian

So YOU HAVE NO PLATES (the ORIGINAL hand made m****cripts) NOTHING AT ALL TO CHECK JOE SMITH'S imaginary 'translation' from. JUST WHAT I HAVE BEEN SAYING ALL ALONG.

All you have is the nonsense from joe smith's 'let's play religion' buddies. . .

But that only implicates the same judgment on the Biblical text--which we have no autographs for.

The LDS have part the original translation copy. The Bible does not yet even possess that.

So--where does your conclusion leave the Bible?

You seem to be content with throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

[Berean]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

I believe there is:

Testimony of Three Witnesses

Be it known unto all nations, kindreds, tongues, and people, unto whom this work shall come: That we, through the grace of God the Father, and our Lord Jesus Christ, have seen the plates which contain this record, which is a record of the people of Nephi, and also of the Lamanites, their brethren, and also of the people of Jared, who came from the tower of which hath been spoken. And we also know that they have been translated by the gift and power of God, for his voice hath declared it unto us; wherefore we know of a surety that the work is true. And we also testify that we have seen the engravings which are upon the plates; and they have been shown unto us by the power of God, and not of man. And we declare with words of soberness, that an angel of God came down from heaven, and he brought and laid before our eyes, that we beheld and saw the plates, and the engravings thereon; and we know that it is by the grace of God the Father, and our Lord Jesus Christ, that we beheld and bear record that these things are true. And it is marvelous in our eyes. Nevertheless, the voice of the Lord commanded us that we should bear record of it; wherefore, to be obedient unto the commandments of God, we bear testimony of these things. And we know that if we are faithful in Christ, we shall rid our garments of the blood of all men, and be found spotless before the judgment-seat of Christ, and shall dwell with him eternally in the heavens. And the honor be to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Ghost, which is one God. Amen.
Oliver Cowdery
David Whitmer
Martin Harris

Testimony of Eight Witnesses

Be it known unto all nations, kindreds, tongues, and people, unto whom this work shall come: That Joseph Smith, Jun., the translator of this work, has shown unto us the plates of which hath been spoken, which have the appearance of gold; and as many of the leaves as the said Smith has translated we did handle with our hands; and we also saw the engravings thereon, all of which has the appearance of ancient work, and of curious workmanship. And this we bear record with words of soberness, that the said Smith has shown unto us, for we have seen and hefted, and know of a surety that the said Smith has got the plates of which we have spoken. And we give our names unto the world, to witness unto the world that which we have seen. And we lie not, God bearing witness of it.

Christian Whitmer
Jacob Whitmer
Peter Whitmer, Jun.
John Whitmer
Hiram Page
Joseph Smith, Sen.
Hyrum Smith
Samuel H. Smith

In 1838 Martin Harris publicly admitted that none of the witnesses had "physically" seen the plates. Three of the twelve apostles, immediately left the Church.

In the front of every B. of M. appears, "The Testimony of Three Witnesses" with the names of Oliver Cowdery, David Whitmer, and Martin Harris printed under it. But, that "testimony" never appears with their signatures! Replicas of the Declaration of Independence with signatures are available and that was signed long before this "testimony," so why is it not published with their signatures? Has what they signed been altered? II Nephi 27:12-13 in the B. of M. had predicted, "Wherefore, at that day when the book shall be delivered unto the man of whom I have spoken, the book shall be hid from the eyes of the world, that the eyes of none shall behold it save it be that the three witnesses shall behold it by the power of God, besides him to whom the book shall be delivered. And there is none other which shall view it, save it be a few according to the will of God." Why does it say "none shall behold it save it be the three witnesses" if there were going to be a "few others" too! This will be discussed in more detail later with the "Eight Witnesses."


II Nephi 11:3 and Ether 5:2-4 in the B. of M. also refer to the three witnesses. D. & C. 5:11-15 speaks of the three witnesses, and says in v. 14, "to none else will I grant this power to receive this testimony."


Since Joseph said he was translating the B. of M. at the Whitmer home (D.H.C., Vol. I, pp. 48-49), the gold plates must have been there (if they existed). Does it make sense for Smith to take the three witnesses from the Whitmer home and go into the woods to pray that they might see the plates (D.H.C., Vol. I, p. 54)? The three witnesses could not see the actual plates in the woods if they were in the Whitmer home! If they saw anything at all it was a "vision" as Joseph said in the D.H.C., Vol. I, p. 55, "the same vision was opened to our (Martin Harris' and Joseph's) view, at least it was again opened to me." D. & C. 17:5 also says they saw the plates "by faith" even as Harris later testified.


While Joseph was still "translating" the B. of M., the Lord told him to have the three witnesses sign "The Testimony of Three Witnesses" in the front of the B. of M. (D.H.C. Vol. I, pp. 57 & 59, D&C 17:5-6). It says the witnesses saw the plates, and "we also know that they have been translated by the gift and power of God." They declared, "We know" because "his (God's) voice hath declared it unto us." They could not testify that they read and checked the translation, so they testified "an angel" showed them the plates "by the power of God," and God's voice told them the translation was true.


But, all three witnesses testified of other visions and heavenly messages which the LDS Church rejects. For example, David Whitmer said, "In June, 1838, God spoke to me again by His own voice from the heavens and told me to 'separate myself from among the Latter Day Saints' " (An Address to All Believers in Christ, p. 27). All three witnesses apostatized from the LDS Church, and Joseph Smith and other LDS leaders accused them of lying, stealing, cheating, counterfeiting, defrauding, and persecuting the LDS (Times and Seasons, Vol. I, pp. 22-23, 81). Yet, LDS Apostle John Widtsoe refers to the three witnesses, as well as the other eight, as men of "spotless reputation" (Joseph Smith — Seeker After Truth, pp. 338-339). If the three witnesses were of "spotless reputation" prior to their involvement in Mormonism, how did they become so corrupt while involved with the "one true Church?"


Devout LDS claim that none of the three witnesses ever denied their testimony. But, the official Mormon publication Times and Seasons, Vol. II, p. 482, says that Oliver Cowdery did deny the B. of M., even though LDS claim Oliver returned to the LDS Church. The records show that he and his family joined the Methodist Protestant Church in Tiffin, Ohio, in about 1841, where Oliver served as secretary. When he died in 1850, he was buried by a Methodist minister, John Sexsmith, in Richmond, Missouri.


David Whitmer belonged to at least three of the Mormon splinter groups at different times, but he died still rejecting the LDS Church and its priesthood.

Martin Harris had been a member of at least five religious groups prior to becoming a Mormon, and he joined several others after he left Mormonism. Brigham Young's brother, Phineas, wrote to Brigham on December 31, 1841, from Kirtland, Ohio, saying, "There are in this place all kinds of teaching; Martin Harris is a firm believer in Shakerism, says his testimony is greater than it was for the B. of M." (Martin Harris — Witness and Benefactor of the Book of Mormon, 1955, p. 52).


More than sixty people testified concerning the Sacred Roll and Book of Shakerism, which taught "Christ has made His second appearance on earth, in a chosen female known by the name of Ann Lee." Martin Harris could not believe both that and the D. & C. 49:22, which says, "the Son of Man cometh not in the form of a woman." In his old age, Harris rejoined the LDS Church and was brought to Utah where he died. But, there is no record of Harris ever renouncing his "greater" testimony for Shakerism. Therefore, just because there is no record of the witnesses of the B. of M. renouncing their testimony about the B. of M. that does not prove that they still believed it! If they truly believed it, why did they all apostatize from the LDS church?

http://www.utlm.org/onlinebooks/mclaims4.htm#witnesses

[Berean]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

M****cript---From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

"A m****cript (abbreviated MS for singular and MSS for plural) is any document written by hand or typewritten, as opposed to being mechanically printed or reproduced in some automated way.[1] More recently, it is understood to be an author's written, typed, or word-processed copy of a work, as distinguished from the print of the same."

The original m****cript, in part, of the Book of Mormon translation, is still extant.

Testimony of Three Witnesses

Be it known unto all nations, kindreds, tongues, and people, unto whom this work shall come: That we, through the grace of God the Father, and our Lord Jesus Christ, have seen the plates which contain this record, which is a record of the people of Nephi, and also of the Lamanites, their brethren, and also of the people of Jared, who came from the tower of which hath been spoken. And we also know that they have been translated by the gift and power of God, for his voice hath declared it unto us; wherefore we know of a surety that the work is true. And we also testify that we have seen the engravings which are upon the plates; and they have been shown unto us by the power of God, and not of man. And we declare with words of soberness, that an angel of God came down from heaven, and he brought and laid before our eyes, that we beheld and saw the plates, and the engravings thereon; and we know that it is by the grace of God the Father, and our Lord Jesus Christ, that we beheld and bear record that these things are true. And it is marvelous in our eyes. Nevertheless, the voice of the Lord commanded us that we should bear record of it; wherefore, to be obedient unto the commandments of God, we bear testimony of these things. And we know that if we are faithful in Christ, we shall rid our garments of the blood of all men, and be found spotless before the judgment-seat of Christ, and shall dwell with him eternally in the heavens. And the honor be to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Ghost, which is one God. Amen.

Oliver Cowdery
David Whitmer
Martin Harris


Testimony of Eight Witnesses

Be it known unto all nations, kindreds, tongues, and people, unto whom this work shall come: That Joseph Smith, Jun., the translator of this work, has shown unto us the plates of which hath been spoken, which have the appearance of gold; and as many of the leaves as the said Smith has translated we did handle with our hands; and we also saw the engravings thereon, all of which has the appearance of ancient work, and of curious workmanship. And this we bear record with words of soberness, that the said Smith has shown unto us, for we have seen and hefted, and know of a surety that the said Smith has got the plates of which we have spoken. And we give our names unto the world, to witness unto the world that which we have seen. And we lie not, God bearing witness of it.

Christian Whitmer
Jacob Whitmer
Peter Whitmer, Jun.
John Whitmer
Hiram Page
Joseph Smith, Sen.
Hyrum Smith
Samuel H. Smith

The testimony of eight other witnesses also appears in the front of all copies of the B. of M. They claim Joseph Smith showed them the gold plates which had "the appearance of ancient work, and of curious workmanship." But, they were not archaeologists nor linguists, so they could not verify the age or the translation of the plates. Many feel that the witnesses did see some old-looking plates, but that Joseph Smith either made them or had them made. Smith and others later accused Oliver Cowdery of counterfeiting. If he could make counterfeit money, he could also make some phony gold plates. He had been a blacksmith when he was young, so he had ability in that area. The testimony of these eight men was changed after they signed it from "Joseph Smith, Jr. the Author and Proprietor" to "the translator." Such a change also invalidates their testimony.

David Whitmer wrote, "All of the eight witnesses who were then living (except the three Smiths) came out [of the LDS Church]. Peter and Christian Whitmer were dead. Oliver Cowdery came out also" (Address to All Believers in Christ, p. 28). This was in June, 1838. The only ones who remained with Joseph out of the eight witnesses were his father and two brothers.

Apostle James Talmage described the gold plates, saying, "The plates of the B. of M.... were... each about seven inches wide by eight inches long, and in thickness a little less than that of ordinary sheet tin. They were fastened together by three rings running through the plates near one edge; together they formed a book nearly six inches in thickness" (A. of F., p. 262).

Gold weighs 1204.7256 pounds per cubic foot. 7"x 8"x 6"=336 cubic inches or .19444 cubic feet (336 divided by 12 cubed, or 1728). Multiply that by the cubic feet in the gold plates (.19444), and it shows that they weighed about 234.25 pounds! Yet, the testimony of the eight witnesses claims, "We have seen and hefted" the gold plates. And Joseph Smith's mother claimed that he put the plates under one arm and carried them three miles, fighting off the attacks of three robbers at the same time! (Joseph Smith's History By His Mother, 1853 edition, pp. 104- http://www.utlm.org/onlinebooks/mclaims4.htm#witnesses