True Christianity

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by Christian

BTW, CHRISTIANS have been repeating ourselves for about 2,000 years now. Mormons didn't come close to existing when we began.

I have a question for the board.

When you state "Christian"--is that a reference to the faith alone Christianity which preaches a salvation through a faith without works--or the true Christianity of the Biblical text?

Matthew 7:19-21---King James Version (KJV)
19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

[alanmolstad]

Christian = saved by Grace though faith and not by works.

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

Christian = saved by Grace though faith and not by works.

No one has claimed anyone is saved by works.

So--is the term "faith" found in your post--a reference to a faith with works--or a faith without works?

James 2:20-26---King James Version (KJV)
20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?
26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

No one has claimed anyone is saved by works.

]

Good!

for we are saved only by Grace though faith, and not by works.

QUESTION - so what role do works have then in the story?

ANSWER - my works are just like the sound of my car's motor.
The sound tells me when the car is running, or when it it turned off.
The sound can also tell me how the motor is running and if there is some trouble.

But the sound does not in any way effect the way the car is running, nor does the sound of the car determine if the car is running or not.

The sound is just the effect we hear that tells us the motor is running.


No sound?, the motor is off.....





The works I have in my life are just like this sound of a car running.
My works dont add anything to my salvation.
My works are not something I try to go out and do as if they mean anything with my salvation.
But my works do tell me and others of my salvation...
The works are the after-effect of what being a strong Christian has done in my life.


This is why the Bible tells us that faith without works is dead....
Its the same as saying the a motor that makes no sound at all is not running....

[disciple]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

No one has claimed anyone is saved by works.

So--is the term "faith" found in your post--a reference to a faith with works--or a faith without works?

James 2:20-26---King James Version (KJV)
20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?
26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

Greetings,

I've often wondered why there can be any argument over this p***age in James.
Works are the proof of faith, works are the fruit of faith, works naturally follow true faith.
As a Christian who came from a catholic background I understand the aversion to mixing
works into salvation. As children in catholic school we were taught that that you must do
these things(works) to be accepted by God, but Ephesians 2 tells us that we were created
in Christ for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we might walk in them.
Works come with faith just as God intended.

[alanmolstad]

Now in the world of the CULTs what we find is that the leadership of a CULT will get their followers to believe that 'works save'.

They might not change the wording in the Bible, but what they will do is twist the meanings around so far as to get their followers to believe that unless they do lots of works to support the CULT they are lost.

This gets them sucked into the "works salvation" way of thinking.

This is why members of CULTs work so hard for the CULT.

They are attempting to prove and maintain their own salvation by doing tons and tons of works.









The duty of the christian that runs into a member of a CULOT like the Mormons or the JWs or the Moonies, ect, is to just point out that all the works they might do in support of their CULT is a moot point.

it's meaningless.

its destructive to their lives.

Its building walls between therm and their Lord.



We should just offer them the truth that there is only one work that matters with God....and that is to have FAITH in his son....

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

Good!

for we are saved only by Grace though faith, and not by works.

Again--when you see a reference to "faith" in the scriptures, as above--is that a reference to a faith with works--or a faith without works?

QUESTION - so what role do works have then in the story?

Seeing the scriptures testify all men will be judged according to their own works--after death--and that for life or ****ation?

John 5:28-29--King James Version (KJV)
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of ****ation.

How does one fit that into faith alone theology?

[alanmolstad]

and they asked him, "What must I do to be saved?"

Its a common idea...that people need to 'do" something in order to earn their salvation.

People want salvation be be something they can 'do' so as to be able to check that item off their list of things to do...



But the answer we get from the Scriptures is different and not what people want to hear at all.

There is no 'doing".


There is only believing.

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by disciple

Greetings,

I've often wondered why there can be any argument over this p***age in James.
Works are the proof of faith, works are the fruit of faith, works naturally follow true faith.

Hi Disciple, appreciate your reply:

Well, as I see it--one of the problems arise in your above statement.

IOW--was it "true faith" before the works--as your post might indicate?

As a Christian who came from a catholic background I understand the aversion to mixing
works into salvation. As children in catholic school we were taught that that you must do
these things(works) to be accepted by God, but Ephesians 2 tells us that we were created
in Christ for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we might walk in them.
Works come with faith just as God intended.

I don't understand your distinction between the two. What is the difference between obedience to the work of God--and walking in those works?

Are you claiming one has to do one to be accepted of God--and not the other? Your post is confusing, IMO.

So--was work mixed into salvation here?

Acts 2:38---King James Version (KJV)
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

[alanmolstad]

what position should a Christian have when it comes to works?


The answer is like this.



One time I was traveling in the South and I went into a small restaurant to get dinner.
The lady who came to the table to take my order told me what was for dinner that day.

"Burgers and grits, chicken and grits, eggs and grits, or potatoes and grits" she told me.

I looked uo at her and said, "I dont really want to order and grits"

She smiled, and said, "You dont order grits, grits just come!"







Works are like that in our lives....

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

and they asked him, "What must I do to be saved?"

Its a common idea...that people need to 'do" something in order to earn their salvation.

Did those of Acts 2:38 earn the remission of sins--or did God extend His salvational grace to them which obey Him--and do His work?

Acts 2:38---King James Version (KJV)
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Did these earn the right to the tree of life?

Revelation 22:14---King James Version (KJV)
14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

Or does God give His salvational grace unto life, to them which obey Him--and keep His commandments?

1 John 2:3-4--=-King James Version (KJV)
3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

[disciple]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

Hi Disciple, appreciate your reply:

Well, as I see it--one of the problems arise in your above statement.

IOW--was it "true faith" before the works--as your post might indicate?



I don't understand your distinction between the two. What is the difference between obedience to the work of God--and walking in those works?

Are you claiming one has to do one to be accepted of God--and not the other? Your post is confusing, IMO.

So--was work mixed into salvation here?

Acts 2:38---King James Version (KJV)
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Hello DB,
Paul says in Romans 12, "I say to everyone among you not to think more highly of himself than he ought to think; but to think so as to have sound judgment, as God has allotted to each a measure of faith." "To each" refers back to "everyone among you." God has given all Christians varying measures of faith, faith to believe the Gospel, faith to do those works He has prepared for us.
In the context, Paul is concerned that people were "thinking of themselves more highly than they ought to think” as they use their spiritual gifts to perform good works. His final remedy for this pride is to say that not only are spiritual gifts a work of God's free grace in our lives, but so also is the very faith with which we use those gifts and perform those works. How can we boast if we were given faith to believe and faith to do works?
That's how important humility is in God's eyes. This is exactly the same aim of God mentioned in Ephesians 2:8-9 where Paul stresses that saving faith is a gift: "By grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not of works, so that no one may boast." Faith is a gift from God, so that no one may boast”, about their salvation or their works.

[alanmolstad]

again...they asked him, "What must I DO to be saved?"


and his answer is to list the Commandments....and tells the guy that if you do these things you will live.

So the guy responds that he has always done the listed Commandments....

Here is the moment that is where the real Truth comes out from our Lord.

For if doing things, if keeping the Commandments were able to save anyone, this would be the moment Jesus would support that idea by saying, "Well done, you have eternal life"


But whats Jesus does say totally undercuts the whole "works salvation": idea that is taught within the world of the CULTS...

For rather that supporting the idea that doing works can help save you, Jesus points out that keeping all the commandments is a moot point..

its FAITH that counts....



Works are meaningless!

Faith ,,,following Jesus is what God wants...

Not our works
Not out offerings.

God wants our heart!.......





This is why, a guy who is about to die, with no good works to his name, with not a single commandment kept, will go to heaven...

For its not a matter of our works that God is seeking out of us.
Its our changed hearts...hearts changed by FAITH....by BELIEVING!




"Today you will be with me in paradise!"





So what view should New testament Christian have of the Old testament Jewish Commandments?
They are to be seen as a school teacher who was a guide so that people would be able to recognize when the new Covenant was here!

The Old Covenant with all the laws and commandments is fulfilled!>
Ther Commandments rule the living, but we are dead in Christ, so we are now alive in Christ too.

The commandments have no ruling over the dead.,...



This is why the Christian should speak to the person tra[pped in the Mormon CIULT>
For the Mormon has pride in their works, but they have no faith.

For they have put their faith in a false god...a false jesus.

Thus the Mormon faith is "Dead faith ' (faith without works)

this is why I try hard to help Mormons see that their faith without works is a "dead faith": in a dead religion...

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

again...they asked him, "What must I DO to be saved?"


and his answer is to list the Commandments....and tells the guy that if you do these things you will live.

So the guy responds that he has always done the listed Commandments....

Here is the moment that is where the real Truth comes out from our Lord.

For if doing things, if keeping the Commandments were able to save anyone, this would be the moment Jesus would support that idea by saying, "Well done, you have eternal life"

IOW--Jesus was just kidding when He testified to this?

Matthew 19:16-19---King James Version (KJV)
16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

So--where do we find in that exposition that the ONLY thing one needed to do was obey the commandments, as the young ruler defined it?

Christ connected keeping the commandments with eternal life--period. Showing where anything additional is required does not cover up or cancel out what Christ did testify to, that is--a connection between obeying the commandments and eternal life.

And we have additional testimony to add to the testimony of Christ:

1 John 2:3-4--King James Version (KJV)
3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

Revelation 22:14---King James Version (KJV)
14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

1 Corinthians 7:19---King James Version (KJV)
19 Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God.

So--could you explain to us how one would avoid the condemnation spoken of by Paul here--and not obey the commandments?

Galatians 5:19-21---King James Version (KJV)
19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

IOW--Jesus was just kidding when He testified to this?

......

not so much "kidding"
its like this....


Remember when Jesus asked his men, "Who do they say i am?"

When we read this question from Jesus, are we to understand that jesus had no clue as to what people were saying about him?


and then when Jesus ask, "Who do YOU say that I am?" are we to believe Jesus was clue-free as to what he own men thought of him?





What comes out in many things that Jesus says is that they are things he said in order to spur the conversation in a new direction.

an example is when Jesus told us that if we want to have life we must "eat" his flesh...and "drink" his blood.
He is not really kidding, but on the other hand we also have to understand that his words are not to be seen as just literal.


Jesus's resurrection was the ending of the Old Covenant, and the beginning of the New Covenant.

The New cant be the new unless the Old is shown to be no longer in effect.


So what Jesus is doing with the guy who asks about what he can "do" to gain life was to first point to what the guy wanted to be so very true!

jesus lists the very things the guy was doing in the hope of earning life...

Then, Jesus turns the table over and informs him that all that "works" was pointless and still left a person short.


Then Jesus tells him that life is only gained by following him.

in other words, life is only given to they who believe.





works are a moot point.

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

IOW--Jesus was just kidding when He testified to this?

Matthew 19:16-19---King James Version (KJV)
16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

So--where do we find in that exposition that the ONLY thing one needed to do was obey the commandments, as the young ruler defined it?

Christ connected keeping the commandments with eternal life--period. Showing where anything additional is required does not cover up or cancel out what Christ did testify to, that is--a connection between obeying the commandments and eternal life.

And we have additional testimony to add to the testimony of Christ:

1 John 2:3-4--King James Version (KJV)
3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

Revelation 22:14---King James Version (KJV)
14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

1 Corinthians 7:19---King James Version (KJV)
19 Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God.

So--could you explain to us how one would avoid the condemnation spoken of by Paul here--and not obey the commandments?

Galatians 5:19-21---King James Version (KJV)
19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

not so much "kidding"
its like this....


Remember when Jesus asked his men, "Who do they say i am?"

When we read this question from Jesus, are we to understand that jesus had no clue as to what people were saying about him?


and then when Jesus ask, "Who do YOU say that I am?" are we to believe Jesus was clue-free as to what he own men thought of him?

Actually--it's more like this:

Matthew 19:16-19---King James Version (KJV)
16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

So--where do we find in that exposition that the ONLY thing one needed to do was obey the commandments, as the young ruler defined it?

Christ connected keeping the commandments with eternal life--period. Showing where anything additional is required does not cover up or cancel out what Christ did testify to, that is--a connection between obeying the commandments and eternal life.

And we have additional testimony to add to the testimony of Christ:

1 John 2:3-4--King James Version (KJV)
3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

Revelation 22:14---King James Version (KJV)
14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

1 Corinthians 7:19---King James Version (KJV)
19 Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God.

So--could you explain to us how one would avoid the condemnation spoken of by Paul here--and not obey the commandments?

Galatians 5:19-21---King James Version (KJV)
19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

So--where do we find in that exposition that the ONLY thing one needed ]

John 6:28







any more questions?

[Christian]

Since joe smith's imaginary fairytales bear little to NO RESEMBLANCE to TRUE Christianity (what Jesus Christ actually built), your nonsensical question and misapplication of SCRIPTURE is BOGUS.

Sorry berry, but you haven't anything to hang your hat on. You can't even stick a rock in YOUR hat and get 'revelation from your god.'

CHRIST'S church NEVER HAD
'joe's priesthood authority doctrine'
joe's little boy 'elders'
joe's false spirit-brother-of-satan-demonic-'jesus'
joe's false god who used to be a man
joe's false god that theoretically has a physical body
joe's one-man-led religion
joe's fairytale of 'jesus' coming to the Americas
joe's invented 'nephites'
joe's made up ordination and baptism when he and ollie went out and played 'let's play religion.'
joe's false 'apostles'

You cannot find ANY OF THAT DUNG in the first century church that JESUS CHRIST (THE REAL ONE) BUILT.

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post

Actually--it's more like this:

Matthew 19:16-19---King James Version (KJV)
16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

So--where do we find in that exposition that the ONLY thing one needed to do was obey the commandments, as the young ruler defined it?

Christ connected keeping the commandments with eternal life--period. Showing where anything additional is required does not cover up or cancel out what Christ did testify to, that is--a connection between obeying the commandments and eternal life.

And we have additional testimony to add to the testimony of Christ:

1 John 2:3-4--King James Version (KJV)
3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

Revelation 22:14---King James Version (KJV)
14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

1 Corinthians 7:19---King James Version (KJV)
19 Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God.

So--could you explain to us how one would avoid the condemnation spoken of by Paul here--and not obey the commandments?

Galatians 5:19-21---King James Version (KJV)
19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

John 6:28

John 6:28--King James Version (KJV)
28 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?

How does that limit God's requirements to Matthew19:16-19?

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by Christian

Since joe smith's imaginary fairytales bear little to NO RESEMBLANCE to TRUE Christianity

Then perhaps you can relate to us what is found in the Book of Mormon--which is not found in the Biblical NT--as to salvational doctrines?

There is one thing for sure--the Biblical text defies faith alone theology:

James 2:24---New American Standard Bible (NASB)
24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.

[jude1:3]

I've noticed that things get weird when people take either view to the extreme on this question just like with many other topics.



The scriptures are clear that you will be given according to your works And that you are saved by Grace through faith. It's not one or the other.

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by jude1:3

I've noticed that things get weird when people take either view to the extreme on this question just like with many other topics.

The scriptures are clear that you will be given according to your works

Hi Jude:

If that is true--then faith alone theology is false, IMO.

[jude1:3]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

Hi Jude:

If that is true--then faith alone theology is false, IMO.

I guess it would be better to say Grace alone instead of faith alone.

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by jude1:3

I guess it would be better to say Grace alone instead of faith alone.

the only really important point to keep in mind is that when we talk to people about Christ and the path of salvation given in the Bible, that we make sure the other person understands that works dont save anyone.

Works are always with but not the cause of our salvation.


But the names of things change over the years , and different people have different styles...

The verse that binds us all as Christians is the one that clearly spells it all out for us...

That we are saved by Grace though FAITH, and not by works!

as long as we all center our teachings on that verse we cant go wrong.

[jude1:3]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

the only really important point to keep in mind is that when we talk to people about Christ and the path of salvation given in the Bible, that we make sure the other person understands that works dont save anyone.

Works are always with but not the cause of our salvation.

I agree.

The only thing we got to be careful of though is saying that we don't need works. We Absolutely Need Works, Not for Salvation but to show that we are being obedient to God. Jesus said to feed the sick, visit people in prison, love our neighbor, Etc.

He also said that He will give to every one according to his work *Revelation 22:12 * Revelation 2:23.