True Christianity

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by Saxon

It is so! You have no concept of Bible Christianity because you have been taught by the LDS that the Bible is unreliable. You have your head so far up the Book of Mormon, Pearl of Great Price and Doctrine and Covenants that you don’t pay attention to the Bible. You fail to read the Bible for what it is saying in the context that it is placed.

Straw man arguments are neither convincing nor compelling either.

John is referring to those that are already saved. The saved are the only ones that will keep his commandments, the lost are not keeping the commandments and never will as long as they remain lost.

That only connects being saved with keeping the commandments:

1 John 2:3-4---King James Version (KJV)
3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

The context of this scripture is that the law was the required standard of life at the time Jesus was asked that question.

When did Jesus change?

Matthew 19:16-19---King James Version (KJV)
16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

After the death and resurrection of Christ grace superseded the law as the standard of life.

The standard of life never changed--as that was Jesus Himself.

1 Corinthians 7:19---King James Version (KJV)
19 Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God.


Revelation 22:14---King James Version (KJV)
14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have a right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

I am not saying that the verses from the Bible are not Bible Christianity, it is you trying to make works to be needed to become saved that is not Bible Christianity.

Then could you explain for us why all men are judged according to works--after death--and that for life or ****ation?

John 5:28-29---King James Version (KJV)
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of ****ation.

2 Corinthians 5:10---King James Version (KJV)
10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

Matthew 16:27---King James Version (KJV)
27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

Romans 2:5-11---King James Version (KJV)
5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
11 For there is no respect of persons with God.

1 Peter 1:16-17---King James Version (KJV)
16 Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy.
17 And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man's work, p*** the time of your sojourning here in fear:

[Saxon]

You no nothing of the Bible and you don't want to.

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by Saxon

You no nothing of the Bible and you don't want to.

The commandments of christ....
You know a while ago i made and posted a list of all the commandments that Christ gave us to follow.

The one thing you notice about them is that they are things that flow out of a Christian heart naturally....(Love one another as I have loved you etc)

Also, the verse that says Chriost will judge us according to our works got a guy to ask Christ "what are the works?"
And Jesus tells us that there is actually only one work...to "believe" in the son.

thats it,,,thats the only work the Christian is expected to perform....to have "faith"

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

The commandments of christ....
You know a while ago i made and posted a list of all the commandments that Christ gave us to follow.

The one thing you notice about them is that they are things that flow out of a Christian heart naturally....(Love one another as I have loved you etc)

Also, the verse that says Chriost will judge us according to our works got a guy to ask Christ "what are the works?"
And Jesus tells us that there is actually only one work...to "believe" in the son.

thats it,,,thats the only work the Christian is expected to perform....to have "faith"

Where do we find that Jesus stated the only work was to believe?

Wasn't this Christ who stated this?

Matthew 19:16-19---King James Version (KJV)
16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

Are the ones who keep His commandments the ones who believe?

1 John 2:3-4---King James Version (KJV)
3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

[alanmolstad]

where?'''i will google it in a moment.









The whole context goes like this.

Jesus was teaching that in the judgement you will be judged acording to your works.

This naturally got people to ask, "what works?"

people naturally wanted to know what works they can 'do' that will lead to eternal life?

So Jesus told them...

What Jesus says is that there is actually only one work that counts.....and that work is to 'believe' in the Son that god has sent.

This is talking about the fact that in real terms, works are not going to save us, but we will be held to give account of our "FAITH".....

For grace works only though "FAITH" and not though works at all.....not even a little bit.





so its our FAITH that counts alone...but our FAITH is never alone

[Christian]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

where?'''i will google it in a moment.









The whole context goes like this.

Jesus was teaching that in the judgement you will be judged acording to your works.

This naturally got people to ask, "what works?"

people naturally wanted to know what works they can 'do' that will lead to eternal life?

So Jesus told them...

What Jesus says is that there is actually only one work that counts.....and that work is to 'believe' in the Son that god has sent.

This is talking about the fact that in real terms, works are not going to save us, but we will be held to give account of our "FAITH".....

For grace works only though "FAITH" and not though works at all.....not even a little bit.





so its our FAITH that counts alone...but our FAITH is never alone

Excellent post!

[jude1:3]

If you want rewards in Heaven you must be obedient to God. The works are not what save you but your works do determine your obedience and heavenly rewards.

The Lord Jesus commanded us to feed the poor, visit prisoners etc. so we better do it to show our love for God. John says that we show our love for God by keeping His commandments.

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by jude1:3

If you want rewards in Heaven you must be obedient to God. The works are not what save you but your works do determine your obedience and heavenly rewards.

The Lord Jesus commanded us to feed the poor, visit prisoners etc. so we better do it to show our love for God. John says that we show our love for God by keeping His commandments.

Hi Jude:

I believe that to be the truth--and anyone who studies the Bible will find that theme woven throughout the Biblical NT.

I would like to add something here that might clarify the doctrine of Christ ever further, that is--the judgment of all men, after death--and that in accordance to one's works--is a judgment for either life--or ****ation:

John 5:28-29---King James Version (KJV)
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of ****ation.

2 Corinthians 5:10---King James Version (KJV)
10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

Matthew 16:27---King James Version (KJV)
27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

Romans 2:5-11---King James Version (KJV)
5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
11 For there is no respect of persons with God.

1 Peter 1:16-17---King James Version (KJV)
16 Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy.
17 And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man's work, p*** the time of your sojourning here in fear:

[alanmolstad]

there is no condemnation for Christians...
We will not be judged onto ****ation at all...thats the point of being a Christian .


The Lost are judged by their works....The saved are judged by HIS work....

The lost burn forever in hell....

The saved have already p***ed from death to life....

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

there is no condemnation for Christians...

There might not be any condemnation for true Christians--but true Christians will have the works. What is it about Paul's testimony you don't believe?

2 Corinthians 5:10---King James Version (KJV)
10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

There are numerous people who claim to be Christians that are no different from those who are in the world--and very much a part of it.

There are those who claim to be Christians who are part of every thing Paul lists here:

Galatians 5:19-21---King James Version (KJV)
19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

The Christians who believe it is by faith alone one is saved--and then do the works of the devil--will find in the day of judgment they will be exposed for just what they are, IE--adulterers, fornicators, murderers, drunkards, etc.

They will see, and know--in that day--professing Christ, and then denying Him in their works--was just something they could only fool themselves about during their mortal existence.

[alanmolstad]

nmope...we are NOT JUDGED onto condemnation.
TRather we haver ALREADY p***ed from death onto life...

This is why there is no possability of condemnation for Christians....none....zip...zero...

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

nmope...we are NOT JUDGED onto condemnation.
TRather we haver ALREADY p***ed from death onto life...

This is why there is no possability of condemnation for Christians....none....zip...zero...

2 Peter 2:20-22---King James Version (KJV)
20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.

2 Corinthians 5:10---King James Version (KJV)
10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

[alanmolstad]

There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus

[alanmolstad]

Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life

[alanmolstad]

So the Christian will not be judged onto condemnation ? .....this is true, the Christian will not ever be condemned.

Is there a record of the sins of a christian in heaven that that might be judged on?......no, all my sins are forgiven and already forgotten.

Is there a record of works of the Christian in heaven ?....yes, but it is not 'their" works but the lord's that are worked though the Christian.

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

So the Christian will not be judged onto condemnation ?

True Christians will be judged unto eternal life:

John 5:28-29---King James Version (KJV)
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of ****ation.

Those who claim to be Christians--and live otherwise--will be judged according to this standard:

Galatians 5:19-21---King James Version (KJV)
19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

Alan--could you explain to us how you fit all men being judged according to their works--and that for life or ****ation--into faith alone theology?

[Christian]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

I noticed you did not engage the scriptures.

What do you find as "out of context" about the posted scriptures?

James 2:20-26---King James Version (KJV)
20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?
26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

1 John 2:3-4---King James Version (KJV)
3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.



What has what I do or don't do have to do with what the scriptures testify to?

Matthew 19:16-19--King James Version (KJV)
16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

Is your point that if I keep the commandments--then the scriptures are true--and if I don't--then they are false?

You have been shown your error multiple times, not an error in the SCRIPTURES, but the error in YOUR UNDERSTANDING of them.

In your pretended exegesis you IGNORE THE CONTEXT of what Jesus says AND TO WHOM.

When talking to a Jew (they are still under the old testament LAW), THEY ARE under the law.

CHRISTIANS ARE NOT. We have DIED TO THE LAW that we may be joined to JESUS CHRIST.

Gal 5:16-18
16 I say then: Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh. 17 For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary to one another, so that you do not do the things that you wish. 18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.
NKJV


Rom 6:5-11

5 For if we have been united together in the likeness of His death, certainly we also shall be in the likeness of His resurrection, 6 knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves of sin. 7 For he who has died has been freed from sin. 8 Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him, 9 knowing that Christ, having been raised from the dead, dies no more. Death no longer has dominion over Him. 10 For the death that He died, He died to sin once for all; but the life that He lives, He lives to God. 11 Likewise you also, reckon yourselves to be dead indeed to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus our Lord.
NKJV



Rom 7:3-6
4 Therefore, my brethren, you also have become dead to the law through the body of Christ, that you may be married to another — to Him who was raised from the dead, that we should bear fruit to God. 5 For when we were in the flesh, the sinful p***ions which were aroused by the law were at work in our members to bear fruit to death. 6 But now we have been delivered from the law, having died to what we were held by, so that we should serve in the newness of the Spirit and not in the oldness of the letter.
NKJV

[Berean]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

I have a question for the board.

When you state "Christian"--is that a reference to the faith alone Christianity which preaches a salvation through a faith without works--or the true Christianity of the Biblical text?

Matthew 7:19-21---King James Version (KJV)
19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

Nonsense.

It has been explained to you so many times that I'm sure you have it memorized, that works are the result of faith, not the other way around. You ignore the Scriptures that easily prove your narrative wrong, only to restate this same false, intellectually dishonest argument.

The Scriptures you use to make your argument, must be taken out of context for your argument to have merit. But since you have taken them out of context, they do not "mean" what you seek to imply that they do. The meaning is lost because you intentionally disregard the MANY OTHER Scriptures which prove your argument wrong. I can cause the Bible to say anything I want to by your method of eisegesis -- taking verses out of context and applying their meaning to a false narrative. This is the only way your argument seems to "work."

Perhaps you should focus on your own religions flaws rather than attempting to make arguments about things you, as a non-believer, can have no concept of due to your lack of the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, which only those who have faith alone have been given.

Take for example, the impossible gospel of Mormonism. You should be more concerned with your own salvation rather than ours, since Mormons have been condemned to the lake of fire for eternity by the doctrines your Mormon leaders have required you to follow. For example:

Such verses as Moroni 10:32; 2 Ne 25:23; Alma 11:37; 34; 34,35 clearly indicate that one must become "godly" in this lifetime, completely sinless, or you are sealed to Satan for eternity in the lake of fire. And since all men have, do and will sin without end, Mormons are toast, regardless of how hard you try.

On the other hand, having faith in Jesus Christ alone, independent of one's "works," which Isaiah claims are filthy rags, is clearly the Scriptural definition of salvation, not the works based and hopeless lie the Mormon religion preaches wherein one must "save himself" and become absolutely sinless in this lifetime, or be sealed to Satan for eternity in the lake of fire. (with the false prophet, I must add)

So the claim that faith alone is faith without works, or that that faith is dead faith, is clearly proven to be false, when one considers more than just those verses which "seem" to make that argument. But when one takes into consideration all of the Scriptures, which you intentionally do not do, it becomes very clear that your argument has no basis.

Mormons call free grace cheap grace, but there was nothing "cheap" about Christ giving His life for our sins. What is "cheap" is expecting your own worthless efforts to do the "work" that Jesus has done, and which your doctrines diminish and deny. Here is what Jesus has to say about that...

“Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.

“Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.

“For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.” (Matt. 11:28–30.)

Your argument that the Scriptures insist that one must "work" is clearly dismissed. The claim that faith without works is dead faith, and proves that faith alone is wrong, is disproved many times over. We are to rest from our works, because Jesus Christ has done the work for us. We are to rely on His "Work" not our own.

"For if Joshua had given them rest, he would not have spoken afterward of another day. There remains therefore a Sabbath rest for the people of God. For he who has entered into his rest has himself also rested from his works, as God did from his. Let us therefore give diligence to enter into that rest, lest anyone fall after the same example of disobedience. (Heb 4:8-11)

You have clearly fallen into disobedience, by teaching that "works" are required for salvation, when the Scriptures clearly prove that is false. Salvation is by grace, through faith, plus nothing, is the ONLY means one may achieve salvation. See John 3:16

[Berean]

And when we say the word "Christian, DBerrie, we are certainly NOT referring to the Mormon religion. That is just one of the many misconceptions about Mormonism.

The following is an example of how and why unlearned Christians are duped into joining the Mormon Church. Here is an article that describes a new Mormon's conversion experience.

Here are 5 misconceptions about Mormonism

My comments below

Ammon Smartt, the volunteer public affairs director for the Tennessee Nashville Coordinating Council, explains five misconceptions about his faith:

1. We believe that through the atonement of Jesus Christ all mankind may be saved. Some think that we are not Christian, but we revere the New Testament as scripture and believe in the life and mission of Jesus Christ detailed therein.

2. We believe the Book of Mormon is another testament of Jesus Christ. It complements the Bible and is evidence that there is continuing revelation from God today.

3. We believe that we are saved by the grace of Jesus Christ, after all we can do. Our own efforts to obey God’s commandments will be insufficient because no one is perfect.

4. We believe in marriage between one man and one woman. We do not practice polygamy.

5. We believe in the same organization that existed in the church established in the Bible, including apostles, prophets, pastors, teachers, evangelists, etc. We believe in living prophets who are also known in scripture as special witnesses of Christ. We do not pray to Joseph Smith or any other man. We only worship God.

Here is my critique:

1. These myths are widely held among Mormons who are woefully ignorant of the teachings and history of their Church. Especially the myth that Mormons are Christians. Mormons claim to believe and revere the Bible as the Word of God, but their leaders have said very disparaging things about the Bible, Christianity, Christians, etc., such as:

"Therefore, so far as the uninspired translators and the people are concerned, no part of the Bible can, with certainty, be known by them to be the word of God. ... The Hebrew and Greek m****cripts of the Bible from which translations have been made, are evidently very much corrupted, as appears from the fact, that scarcely any two copies are alike in any chapter or verse. ... This uncertainty, combined with the imperfections of uninspired translations, renders the Bibles of all languages, at the present day, emphatically the words of men, instead of the pure words of God." - Pratt, Spiritual Gifts, pages 70-71

The notion that their imposter Jesus' atonement somehow helps them overcome sin, in the same way that the Biblical Jesus overcomes sin, is purely deceptive. The Mormon Jesus is simply NOT the Christian Jesus nor the Jesus "detailed" in the Bible, nor does his sacrifice pay for your sins, as does that of the Christian Jesus.

Mormons should also note that the belief in any "Jesus" other than the true Jesus of the Bible, is idol worship. THIS ARTICLE from LDS.org proves undeniably that the Mormon Jesus and the Christian Jesus are two entirely different en***ies.

The Mormon Jesus' "atonement" does not actually "atone" for sin, It merely raises all of mankind from the dead, and according to the Book of Mormon, all who rise, remain in whatever state of sin they were in at the time of death. (See Moroni 10:32; Alma 11:37, 42:29,30, 34:32; D&C 58:42,43). The Mormon is responsible for "atoning" for his/her own sin, be becoming completely sinless in this lifetime, forsaking even the desire to sin. Which is simply impossible, and which Mormon leaders admit.

Joseph Fielding Smith, the tenth LDS president, plainly stated:

We are not going to be saved in the kingdom of God just because our names are on the records of the Church…. There will not be such an overwhelming number of the Latter-day Saints who will get there…. If we save one-half of the Latter-day Saints, that is, with an exaltation in the celestial kingdom of God, we will be doing well (Doctrines of Salvation 2:14—15).

Those aren't very good odds.

According to Apostle George Q. Cannon, Mormons:

will be held to stricter accountability than any other people on the face of the earth…. We must be a pure people or we will be scourged; we must be a holy people or God’s anger will be kindled against us (Gospel Truth, p. 74).

By STARK contrast we note that the Christian Jesus' Sacrifice on the Cross, does indeed atone for all sin of the believer, thereby saving completely (not to be snatched from His hand - john 10:29) those who have faith in His sacrifice rather than their own good works.

John 3:16For God so loved the world, that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish, but have eternal life. 17For God didn't send his Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world should be saved through him. 18He who believes in him is not judged. He who doesn't believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the one and only Son of God. 19This is the judgment, that the light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the light; for their works were evil. 20For everyone who does evil hates the light, and doesn't come to the light, lest his works would be exposed. 21But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his works may be revealed, that they have been done in God."

Due to Forum character count restrictions, see the rest of my comments in my next post...

[Berean]

Continued...

2. The Book of Mormon teaches many of the same doctrines that the Bible teaches: There is only One God, He is Spirit, Manifest in the Three Persons of the Holy Trinity - Father, Son and Holy Ghost, and that salvation comes by having faith in Jesus Christ alone.

But there is no historical or archeological evidence whatsoever to support the wild claims made by and of the Book of Mormon, and consequently there is no reason whatsoever to believe it is anything more than fiction, therefore negating the notion that the Book of Mormon can be considered "continuing revelation." The Bible is very clear that it is a complete and sufficient record of the "Good News" of Jesus Christ, who fulfilled the requirements of the Law "once for all" and then sat down at the Right Hand of the Father.

3. These two statements, in conjunction with each other, actually contradict themselves. As outlined above in my critique of alleged misconception #1,

Mormon "grace" only intends to raise one from the dead, which evidently Mormons consider as being "saved." But in reality they are still in their sin, and therefore still doomed. They were responsible for overcoming their own sin prior to death, or they will be sealed to Satan for eternity in the lake of fire should they fail:

Alma 34:34Ye cannot say, when ye are brought to that awful crisis , that I will repent, that I will return to my God. Nay, ye cannot say this; for that same spirit which doth possess your bodies at the time that ye go out of this life, that same spirit will have power to possess your body in that eternal...35For behold, if ye have procrastinated the day of your repentance even until death, behold, ye have become subjected to the spirit of the devil, and he doth seal you his; therefore, the Spirit of the Lord hath withdrawn from you, and hath no place in you, and the devil hath all power over you;...

For total salvation to take place, one must be worthy of the Celestial kingdom, having kept themselves from sinning. The Celestial Kingdom is the only kingdom in which Mormons are truly "saved." But this reward essentially escapes all of them, since Mormons also believe in the depravity of mankind, there is no hope for anything other than ****ation in the lake of fire for eternity for Mormons unless they turn from their idol worship and instead have faith in the Jesus Christ of the Bible. Then and only then may they know the only true and complete salvation -- redemption from and forgiveness of their sin.

Bruce R. McConkie said:

"Accordingly, I shall now set forth some of the principles of sacrifice and consecration to which the true saints must conform if they are ever to go where God and Christ are and have an inheritance with the faithful saints of ages past.

It is written: “He who is not able to abide the law of a celestial kingdom cannot abide a celestial glory.” (D&C 88:22.) The law of sacrifice is a celestial law; so also is the law of consecration. Thus to gain that celestial reward which we so devoutly desire, we must be able to live these two laws.

Sacrifice and consecration are inseparably intertwined. The law of consecration is that we consecrate our time, our talents, and our money and property to the cause of the Church: such are to be available to the extent they are needed to further the Lord’s interests on earth.

The law of sacrifice is that we are willing to sacrifice all that we have for the truth’s sake—our character and reputation; our honor and applause; our good name among men; our houses, lands, and families: all things, even our very lives if need be."

Joseph Smith said, “A religion that does not require the sacrifice of all things never has power sufficient to produce the faith necessary [to lead] unto life and salvation.” (Lectures on Faith, p. 58.)

Mormon leaders are very much like the Pharisees of Jesus' time. Matt 23:4 For they bind heavy burdens that are grievous to be borne, and lay them on men's shoulders; but they themselves will not lift a finger to help them. 5But all their works they do to be seen by men. They make their phylacteries broad, enlarge the fringes of their garments, 6and love the place of honor at feasts, the best seats in the synagogues, 7the salutations in the marketplaces, and to be called 'Rabbi, Rabbi' by men. 8But don't you be called 'Rabbi,' for one is your teacher, the Christ, and all of you are brothers.

By STARK contrast, Jesus said: "Come to me, all you who labor and are heavily burdened, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you, and learn from me, for I am gentle and lowly in heart; and you will find rest for your souls. For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light." (Matt 11:28-30)

4. While most Mormons don't practice polygamy today, some Fundamentalist Mormon sects and many tens of thousands still do. Many Mormons admit they believe in polygamy but don't practice it because of the Woodruff Manifesto now known as Official Declaration-1 at the end of the D. & C. But, many of those same LDS men are sealed for all eternity to two or more wives in LDS temple rites, as described by Apostle John Widtsoe who wrote:

"Several approaches to eternal marriage may be made: Two living persons may be sealed to each other for time and eternity. A living man may be sealed for eternity to a dead woman; or a living woman to a dead man. Two dead persons may be sealed to each other. It is also possible, though the church does not now permit it, to seal two living people for eternity only, with no ***ociation on earth... Further, under divine command to the Prophet Joseph Smith, it was possible for one man to be sealed to more than one woman for time and for eternity. Thus, came plural marriage among the Latter-day Saints" (E. & R., p. 340).

5. These are more widely held Mormon myths, which run along the same lines of thinking which dubiously grant Mormons the ***le of "Christian." The Mormon Church uses the same ***les as those given to members of the Church which Christ built, but in the Mormon Church they describe entirely different Church offices and duties.

I would also argue that Smith was certainly held in such high esteem, that belief in Smith himself is most certainly a necessary requirement for salvation in the Mormon world. Not to mention, don't all "exalted" Mormons become "gods?"

President Harold B. Lee quoted LDS Prophet Heber J. Grant, saying, "Brethren, keep your eye on the President of this church. If he tells you to do anything and it is wrong, and you do it, the Lord will bless you for it. But you don't need to worry: the Lord will never let His mouthpiece lead this people astray" (Ensign, October, 1972, p. 7).

In his own words Smith said:

“God made Aaron to be the mouthpiece for the children of Israel, and He will make me to be god to you in His stead, and the Elders to be mouth for me; and if you don’t like it, you must lump it.” (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 363/History of the Church, 6:319-20)

"Come on! ye prosecutors! ye false swearers! All hell, boil over! Ye burning mountains, roll down your lava! for I will come out on top at last. I have more to boast of than ever any man had. I am the only man that has ever been able to keep a whole church together since the days of Adam. A large majority of the whole have stood by me. Neither Paul, John, Peter, nor Jesus ever did it. I boast that no man ever did such a work as I. The followers of Jesus ran away from Him; but the Latter‑day Saints never ran away from me yet...When they can get rid of me, the devil will also go."
Joseph Smith, History of the Church, Vol. 6, p. 408, 409

Interesting enough, God killed Joseph Smith a month later, so this prophecy was perhaps the only one Smith made which came true. And, it was self-fulfilling.

If any man preach any other Gospel than that which I have preached, he shall be cursed.
Joseph Smith, History of the Church, volume 6, page 365; Joseph Smith, Jr, The Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, page 366

O ye house of Israel whom I have spared, how oft will I gather you as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, if ye will repent and return unto me with full purpose of heart. Joseph Smith, Book of Mormon, 3 Nephi 10:6

And in closing, here's a corker:

The greatest responsibility in this world that God has laid upon us, is to seek after our dead...They without us cannot be made perfect.
Joseph Smith, Times and Seasons 5:616; Discourses of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 147; History of the Church 6:313

Satan could not have said it better.

Bottom line... Mormonism is not a Christian religion. It is a cult of Christianity which seeks to usurp literally every tenet of the Christian religion. And the questions you should be asking is if you, as a Mormon, are living up to the doctrines of your own religion. Once you've cleaned up your own back yard, then you can come looking in ours.

[Berean]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

There might not be any condemnation for true Christians--but true Christians will have the works. What is it about Paul's testimony you don't believe?

2 Corinthians 5:10---King James Version (KJV)
10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

There are numerous people who claim to be Christians that are no different from those who are in the world--and very much a part of it.

There are those who claim to be Christians who are part of every thing Paul lists here:

Galatians 5:19-21---King James Version (KJV)
19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

The Christians who believe it is by faith alone one is saved--and then do the works of the devil--will find in the day of judgment they will be exposed for just what they are, IE--adulterers, fornicators, murderers, drunkards, etc.

They will see, and know--in that day--professing Christ, and then denying Him in their works--was just something they could only fool themselves about during their mortal existence.

Nonsense.

Unlike some, we believe ALL of Paul's words. Not just the ones that can be taken out of context to seemingly prove a false Mormon doctrine.

You admitted on another forum (no, not the one that champions christian free speech, the other one.. that coddles Mormon trolls), that you believe the Bible is corrupt and not reliable and your intention is to take God's Words out of context and turn them around so as to use them as a club to mock Christians, even though you know the argument is false.

In reality, and in context, Paul's words clearly expose your argument as folly.

Romans 4:1-7 World English Bible "What then will we say that Abraham, our forefather, has found according to the flesh? 2For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not toward God. 3For what does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness." 4Now to him who works, the reward is not counted as grace, but as something owed. 5But to him who doesn't work, but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness. 6Even as David also pronounces blessing on the man to whom God counts righteousness apart from works,

7"Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, whose sins are covered.
8Blessed is the man whom the Lord will by no means charge with sin."

And there is no contradiction between Corinthians, Galatians and Romans. In context they all teach the same doctrine of salvation by grace through faith in Jesus Christ, plus nothing. If our works are necessary, as Mormons teach, then Christ's Sacrifice is insufficient. But the Scriptures insist that it is sufficient and complete. All men who turn to Christ in faith, relying on His Work on the Cross rather than our own works, (which are NOT sufficient) are saved.

It's as simple as that.

The Book of Mormon teaches the same thing, but Mormons don't follow the teachings of the "most correct book on earth."

It's obvious that you are taking Paul's words out of context and using them to promote the false Mormon narrative that having faith and allowing Christ's Atoning Work on the Cross to pay the penalty for our sins, rather than relying on one's own works, is somehow not Biblical. Frankly, the opposite is true, as we can plainly see above and all throughout the Scriptures.

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View PostThere might not be any condemnation for true Christians--but true Christians will have the works. What is it about Paul's testimony you don't believe?

2 Corinthians 5:10---King James Version (KJV)
10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

There are numerous people who claim to be Christians that are no different from those who are in the world--and very much a part of it.

There are those who claim to be Christians who are part of every thing Paul lists here:

Galatians 5:19-21---King James Version (KJV)
19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

The Christians who believe it is by faith alone one is saved--and then do the works of the devil--will find in the day of judgment they will be exposed for just what they are, IE--adulterers, fornicators, murderers, drunkards, etc.

They will see, and know--in that day--professing Christ, and then denying Him in their works--was just something they could only fool themselves about during their mortal existence.

Originally Posted by Berean

Nonsense. Unlike some, we believe ALL of Paul's words. Not just the ones that can be taken out of context to seemingly prove a false Mormon doctrine.

IOW--you believe Paul's testimony--until it testifies against you--and then it's "out of context"?

Why don't you address the above scriptures?

You admitted on another forum (no, not the one that champions christian free speech, the other one.. that coddles Mormon trolls), that you believe the Bible is corrupt and not reliable and your intention is to take God's Words out of context and turn them around so as to use them as a club to mock Christians, even though you know the argument is false.

Cite, please. I challenge anyone to produce anything that even hints I have ever stated that.

I'm not the one who states the scriptures are out of context.

[hogan60]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

IOW--you believe Paul's testimony--until it testifies against you--and then it's "out of context"?

Why don't you address the above scriptures?



Cite, please. I challenge anyone to produce anything that even hints I have ever stated that.

I'm not the one who states the scriptures are out of context.

Hi dberrie, If works and obedience to the law is necessary for salvation, then can you explain why Jesus called the pharisees brood of vipers, hypocrites, white washed tombs, etc? The Pharisees were very religious and great law keepers. Why didn't Jesus ever praise them for their obedience?

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by hogan60

Hi dberrie, If works and obedience to the law is necessary for salvation, then can you explain why Jesus called the pharisees brood of vipers, hypocrites, white washed tombs, etc? The Pharisees were very religious and great law keepers. Why didn't Jesus ever praise them for their obedience?

Hi Hogan:

Because the Jews of the OT were not obedient. Where do we find Jesus praising the OT Jews as great law keepers?

Matthew 5:20---King James Version (KJV)
20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

Jesus' charge against the Jews was they professed one thing--and did another. They were hypocrites. Since when are hypocrites great law keepers?

[Christian]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

Hi Hogan:

Because the Jews of the OT were not obedient. Where do we find Jesus praising the OT Jews as great law keepers?

Matthew 5:20---King James Version (KJV)
20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

Jesus' charge against the Jews was they professed one thing--and did another. They were hypocrites. Since when are hypocrites great law keepers?

AND YOU are a h................?

Do YOUR works show YOU to be any better than the scribes and pharisees?

OR

Will you be going to that 'hot place?'