Big Julie.. Did Peter Teach Proxy Baptism For the Dead?
Originally Posted by BigJulie [IMG]http://www.waltermartin.com/forums/images/****ons/viewpost-right.png[/IMG]
This can be understood in light of this scripture found in the New Testament:
For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:
Who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God; angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him. [end quote]
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Nonsense.
So you've only encountered ignorant Christians.
In the first place, Mormons do not have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, which is necessary to understand the Gospel, so grabbing a few verses here and there in nilly-willy fashion in an attempt to prove us wrong or play "stump the Christian" simply won't work for you. You will only make yourself look stupid.
And using the Bible to prove Mormon doctrines is silly at best, since Joseph Smith thinks the Bible is corrupt and not very reliable. Joseph Smith declared, "Ignorant translators, careless transcribers, or designing and corrupt priests have committed many errors" (T. of P.J.S., p. 327).
LDS Apostle Mark E. Peterson said, "Many insertions were made, some of them 'slanted' for selfish purposes, while at times deliberate falsifications and fabrications were perpetrated" (As Translated Correctly, p. 4).
Joseph Fielding Smith, the tenth Prophet of Mormonism also said: "There is not one principle pertaining to the salvation of men that is so clearly stated in the Bible, as it has come down to us, that men do not stumble over * not one thing. There is not one principle they can be united on that has been so clearly stated that they do not find their interpretations of it conflicting" (D. of S., Vol. I, p. 278).
The Bible is either the Infallible Word of God, or it is not. And your Church clearly teaches that the Bible is corrupt and unreliable, so that means it cannot be the Word of God. You make it only the words of men. And the fact that you still use it as proof text for Mormon doctrines is laughable. In fact, your leaders insist that fully one fourth of your "sacred scriptures" are essentially "of the devil."
But let's get back to straightening you out about Peter. He did not teach that proxy baptism for the dead is a valid doctrine. For several reasons.
First we have to answer three questions:
- Where was Jesus during the three days
- Who were the spirits in prison and
- Will there be a second chance?
Where was Jesus? The Bible isn’t entirely clear what exactly Christ did for the three days between His death and resurrection. The KJV says that Jesus “preached” to the spirits in prison (1 Pet 3:19). However, the Greek word used simply means “to herald a message”; the NIV translates it as “made proclamation.”
Who were the spirits in prison? When Jesus suffered and died on the cross, His body was put to death but His spirit was made alive, and He yielded it to the Father (Luke 23:46).In the NT the word spirits is used to describe angels or demons, not human beings. The word spirits is a translation of the Greek word pneumasin, a form of the word pneuma, which means “air, breath, wind.” It is used in the New Testament to refer to angels (Hebrews 1:14), demons (Mark 1:23), the spirit of Jesus (Matthew 27:50), the Holy Spirit (John 14:17), and the spiritual part of man (1 Corinthians 2:11). While the Bible makes it clear that human beings possess spirits (Hebrews 4:12), the Bible never refers to human beings as simply “spirits.” In contrast, God the Holy Spirit, angels, and demons are never said to possess spirits; they are spirits. So the standard meaning of the word spirits in the phrase spirits in prison argues for the spirits’ being something other than human beings. In 1 Peter 3:20, Peter refers to people as “souls” (KJV).
Also, nowhere in the Bible are we told that Jesus visited hell. Acts 2:31 says that He went to Hades (NASB), but Hades is not hell. Hades is a term that refers, broadly, to the realm of the dead, a temporary place where the dead await resurrection. Revelation 20:11–15 in the NASB and the NIV makes a clear distinction between the Hades and the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the permanent, final place of judgment for the lost. Hades is a temporary place for both the lost and the Old Testament saints.
The spirits in prison cannot be the holy angels, because they have not sinned and are not imprisoned. And, if the spirits in prison are not the spirits of deceased human beings, that leaves us with one option—the spirits in prison are demons. Now, it is clear that not all the demons are imprisoned. The New Testament gives many examples of demonic activity on earth. So the spirits in prison must be a select group of demons who, unlike the rest of their demonic allies, are held captive.
What might be a reason for some, but not all, of the demons to be imprisoned? Jude 1:6 gives us an important clue: “The angels who did not keep their positions of authority but abandoned their proper dwelling—these he has kept in darkness, bound with everlasting chains for judgment on the great Day.” There are some fallen angels that committed an egregious crime of some kind; Jude 1:6 does not give details, but the demons’ sin was related to how they “did not keep their own position but deserted their proper dwelling.” Revelation 9:1–12, 14–15, and 2 Peter 2:4 also speak of a group of very wicked angels that are currently bound.
Will there be a second chance? No. The Bible is clear that death is the end of all chances. Hebrews 9:27 tells us that we die, and then face judgment. So, as long as a person is alive, he has a second, third, fourth, fifth, etc. chance to accept Christ and be saved (John 3:16; Romans 10:9-10; Acts 16:31). Once a person dies, there are no more chances. The idea of purgatory, a place where people go after death to pay for their sins, has no biblical basis, but is rather a tradition of the Roman Catholic Church.
To understand what happens to nonbelievers after they die, we go to Revelation 20:11-15 which describes the Great White Throne judgment. Here takes place the opening of the books and “the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.” The books contain all the thoughts and deeds of those being judged, and we know from Romans 3:20 that “by the works of the Law is no flesh justified.” Therefore, all who are judged by their works and thoughts are condemned to hell. Believers in Christ, on the other hand, are not judged by the books of works, but their names are found written in another book—the “Lamb’s Book of Life” (Revelation 21:27). These are the ones who have believed on the Lord Jesus, and they alone will be allowed to enter heaven.
What about those who do not believe? Wouldn’t they repent and believe if they were given a second chance? The answer is no, they would not because their hearts are not changed simply because they die. Their hearts and minds “are at enmity” against God and won’t accept Him even when they see Him face to face. This is evidenced clearly in the story of the rich man and Lazarus in Luke 16:19-31. If ever someone should have repented when given a second chance to see clearly the truth, it was the rich man. But although he was in torment in hell, he only asked that Abraham send Lazarus back to earth to warn his brothers so they didn’t have to suffer the same fate. There was no repentance in his heart, only regret for where he found himself. Abraham’s answer says it all: “And he said to him, If they do not hear Moses and the Prophets, they will not be persuaded, even though one rose from the dead” (Luke 16:31). Here we see that the witness of the Scriptures is sufficient for salvation for those who believe it, and no other revelation will bring about salvation to those who do not. No second, third or fourth chances would be enough to turn the heart of stone into a heart of flesh.
Philippians 2:10-11 declares “that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.” One day, everyone will bow before Jesus and recognize that He is the Lord and Savior. At that point, though, it is too late for salvation. After death, all that remains for the unbeliever is judgment (Revelation 20:14-15). That is why we must trust in Him in this life. (paraphrased from Here Here and Here )
Mormon "scriptures" also teach this same thing. that "this life" is the time to repent and there is no second chance in the afterlife. If you die in your sin, there you will remain, sealed to Satan for eternity in the lake of fire. (See Alma, Nephi, Mosiah, Moroni).
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Originally Posted by Berean
