Witnesses recanted?

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

here is something that shows what I feel about the BOM and its supporters.

"Conclusion:

All the Mormon witnesses are as worthless as they are unreliable who recanted their testimony.

I thought this to be an interesting claim--would anyone like to present any evidence which would have the witnesses themselves denying their testimony given in the "Three witnesses" or the "Eight witnesses" account?



Testimony of Three Witnesses

Be it known unto all nations, kindreds, tongues, and people, unto whom this work shall come: That we, through the grace of God the Father, and our Lord Jesus Christ, have seen the plates which contain this record, which is a record of the people of Nephi, and also of the Lamanites, their brethren, and also of the people of Jared, who came from the tower of which hath been spoken. And we also know that they have been translated by the gift and power of God, for his voice hath declared it unto us; wherefore we know of a surety that the work is true. And we also testify that we have seen the engravings which are upon the plates; and they have been shown unto us by the power of God, and not of man. And we declare with words of soberness, that an angel of God came down from heaven, and he brought and laid before our eyes, that we beheld and saw the plates, and the engravings thereon; and we know that it is by the grace of God the Father, and our Lord Jesus Christ, that we beheld and bear record that these things are true. And it is marvelous in our eyes. Nevertheless, the voice of the Lord commanded us that we should bear record of it; wherefore, to be obedient unto the commandments of God, we bear testimony of these things. And we know that if we are faithful in Christ, we shall rid our garments of the blood of all men, and be found spotless before the judgment-seat of Christ, and shall dwell with him eternally in the heavens. And the honor be to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Ghost, which is one God. Amen.

Oliver Cowdery
David Whitmer
Martin Harris


Testimony of Eight Witnesses

Be it known unto all nations, kindreds, tongues, and people, unto whom this work shall come: That Joseph Smith, Jun., the translator of this work, has shown unto us the plates of which hath been spoken, which have the appearance of gold; and as many of the leaves as the said Smith has translated we did handle with our hands; and we also saw the engravings thereon, all of which has the appearance of ancient work, and of curious workmanship. And this we bear record with words of soberness, that the said Smith has shown unto us, for we have seen and hefted, and know of a surety that the said Smith has got the plates of which we have spoken. And we give our names unto the world, to witness unto the world that which we have seen. And we lie not, God bearing witness of it.

Christian Whitmer
Jacob Whitmer
Peter Whitmer, Jun.
John Whitmer
Hiram Page
Joseph Smith, Sen.
Hyrum Smith
Samuel H. Smith

[DrDavidT]

siiiiggggghhhhh!!!!!!! the same post over and over even after it was shown to be weak and not as true as he OP would like

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by DrDavidT

siiiiggggghhhhh!!!!!!! the same post over and over even after it was shown to be weak and not as true as he OP would like

I see others have noticed that we seem to have a guest that is caught in a loop of simply copy/pasting the same stuff over and over.....

Let us hope that the person can work themselves out of the hole they are digging for themselves.
We do have a rule that talks about this type pf spamming of the forum with the same stuff,,,,

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post here is something that shows what I feel about the BOM and its supporters.

"Conclusion:

All the Mormon witnesses are as worthless as they are unreliable who recanted their testimony.

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

I thought this to be an interesting claim--would anyone like to present any evidence which would have the witnesses themselves denying their testimony given in the "Three witnesses" or the

"Eight witnesses" account?

Testimony of Three Witnesses

Be it known unto all nations, kindreds, tongues, and people, unto whom this work shall come: That we, through the grace of God the Father, and our Lord Jesus Christ, have seen the plates which contain this record, which is a record of the people of Nephi, and also of the Lamanites, their brethren, and also of the people of Jared, who came from the tower of which hath been spoken. And we also know that they have been translated by the gift and power of God, for his voice hath declared it unto us; wherefore we know of a surety that the work is true. And we also testify that we have seen the engravings which are upon the plates; and they have been shown unto us by the power of God, and not of man. And we declare with words of soberness, that an angel of God came down from heaven, and he brought and laid before our eyes, that we beheld and saw the plates, and the engravings thereon; and we know that it is by the grace of God the Father, and our Lord Jesus Christ, that we beheld and bear record that these things are true. And it is marvelous in our eyes. Nevertheless, the voice of the Lord commanded us that we should bear record of it; wherefore, to be obedient unto the commandments of God, we bear testimony of these things. And we know that if we are faithful in Christ, we shall rid our garments of the blood of all men, and be found spotless before the judgment-seat of Christ, and shall dwell with him eternally in the heavens. And the honor be to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Ghost, which is one God. Amen.

Oliver Cowdery
David Whitmer
Martin Harris


Testimony of Eight Witnesses

Be it known unto all nations, kindreds, tongues, and people, unto whom this work shall come: That Joseph Smith, Jun., the translator of this work, has shown unto us the plates of which hath been spoken, which have the appearance of gold; and as many of the leaves as the said Smith has translated we did handle with our hands; and we also saw the engravings thereon, all of which has the appearance of ancient work, and of curious workmanship. And this we bear record with words of soberness, that the said Smith has shown unto us, for we have seen and hefted, and know of a surety that the said Smith has got the plates of which we have spoken. And we give our names unto the world, to witness unto the world that which we have seen. And we lie not, God bearing witness of it.

Christian Whitmer
Jacob Whitmer
Peter Whitmer, Jun.
John Whitmer
Hiram Page
Joseph Smith, Sen.
Hyrum Smith
Samuel H. Smith

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

I see others have noticed that we seem to have a guest that is caught in a loop of simply copy/pasting the same stuff over and over.....

Let us hope that the person can work themselves out of the hole they are digging for themselves.
We do have a rule that talks about this type pf spamming of the forum with the same stuff,,,,

The only hole I see is the one which is created when someone makes an accusation they cannot back up. Alan--you made the accusation they "recanted their testimony".

Care to back that claim up with something that might be more substantial than a straw man argument?

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

The only hole I see is the one which is created when someone makes an accusation they cannot back up. Alan--you made the accusation they "recanted their testimony".

Care to back that claim up with something that might be more substantial than a straw man argument?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Mormon_witnesses

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

The only hole I see is the one which is created when someone makes an accusation they cannot back up. Alan--you made the accusation they "recanted their testimony".

Care to back that claim up with something that might be more substantial than a straw man argument?

http://www.bible.ca/mor-witness-book.htm

[alanmolstad]

"Like David Whitmer, Martin Harris later testified that he did not see the plates literally with his fleshly eyes: He said he saw the plates with "the eyes of faith and not with the natural eyes".

http://www.bible.ca/mor-witness-book.htm

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Mormon_witnesses

Alan--please allow me to print a statement made concerning the above reference:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Mormon_witnesses

"None of the Eight Witnesses is known to have denied his testimony to the authenticity of Book of Mormon or the golden plates."

So--where does that leave your testimony?

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

"All the Mormon witnesses are as worthless as they are unreliable who recanted their testimony."

How do you answer to that contradiction?

[alanmolstad]

"David Whitmer said in 1887: "If you believe my testimony to the Book of Mormon; if you believe that God spake to us three witnesses by his own voice, then I tell you that in June, 1838, God spake to me again by his own voice from the heavens, and told me to 'separate myself from among the Latter-day Saints...'" Address to all believers in Christ, p27, 1887 "

[alanmolstad]

"During the summer of 1837, while in Kirtland, David Whitmer pledged his new loyalty to a prophetess (as did Martin and Oliver) who used a black seer stone and danced herself into 'trances.'(Biographical Sketches, Lucy Smith, pp. 211-213) "

http://www.bible.ca/mor-witness-book.htm

[alanmolstad]

"In 1841 the Mormons published a poem which stated "Or Book of Mormon not his word, because denied by Oliver". Seasons and Times, Vol 2, p482 "http://www.bible.ca/mor-witness-book.htm

[alanmolstad]

"Cowdery was excommunicated for this and other "crimes."(History of the Church, vol. 3, pp. 16-18) Later, as a Methodist, he denied the Book of Mormon (Times and Seasons, vol. 2, p. 482 and Improvement Era, Jan. 1969, p 56 and "Oliver Cowdery-The Man Outstanding," Joseph Greehalgh, 1965, p. 28)"

http://www.bible.ca/mor-witness-book.htm

[alanmolstad]

"Cowdery publicly confessed his sorrow and shame for his connection with Mormonism.(The True Origin of The Book of Mormon, Charles Shook, 1914, pp. 58-59) "

http://www.bible.ca/mor-witness-book.htm

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

"Cowdery was excommunicated for this and other "crimes."(History of the Church, vol. 3, pp. 16-18) Later, as a Methodist, he denied the Book of Mormon (Times and Seasons, vol. 2, p. 482 and Improvement Era, Jan. 1969, p 56 and "Oliver Cowdery-The Man Outstanding," Joseph Greehalgh, 1965, p. 28)"

http://www.bible.ca/mor-witness-book.htm

Alan--I've started a new thread for us ***led "false witness?"

[alanmolstad]

Oliver Cowdery was publicly charged by Joseph Smith and leading Mormons with stealing, lying, perjury, counterfeiting, adultery, and being the leader of a gang of "scoundrels of the deepest degree!"(Senate Document 189, Feb. 15, 1841, pp. 6-9 and Comprehensive History of the Church, B. H. Roberts, vol. 1, pp. 438-439)

http://www.bible.ca/mor-witness-book.htm

[alanmolstad]

Conclusion:

All the Mormon witnesses are as worthless as they are unreliable who recanted their testimony.

http://www.bible.ca/mor-witness-book.htm

[alanmolstad]

Conclusion:

Modern Mormon "spin doctors" write all kinds of articles claiming that the witnesses may have denied the Mormon church but they never the book of Mormon. Now you know that is a lie.
http://www.bible.ca/mor-witness-book.htm

[alanmolstad]

Conclusion:

Some Mormons will agree that all three witnesses denied the book of Mormon but came back to deny their denial. Imagine the twelve apostles suddenly denying Jesus rose from the dead in public, only to ask people to ignore their denials and accept their testimony once again. This the apostles of Christ never did.

http://www.bible.ca/mor-witness-book.htm

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

The only hole I see is the one which is created when someone makes an accusation they cannot back up. Alan--you made the accusation they "recanted their testimony".

Care to back that claim up with something that might be more substantial than a straw man argument?

When I say something...it's not because I dreamed it up.

Its not because its my idea...

Its not because I wanted something to be true so invented the idea to support it.




Rather, when I post something on this forum , its because I learned this from Walter Martin, or from former Mormons, or from my history of research into the topic.
None of this is my own ideas.
None of this is my "accusation"

Now I dont get much involved in you guy's little debates back and forth on issues concerning the Mormon church and it's history.
I really dont think the topic of the "Mormons" is very much fun to spend endless hours posting on, thus I dont much post on any of your guy's topics.

I mostly just chime-in when I see a post that is actually of some type of interest to me....the history of Smith and his bed-hoppin is always an attention getter around here...as is Smith's dealing with the magic rocks, and his "hat trick" etc ...

My ***ociation with the history of the Book Of Mormon witnesses topic is due mostly to a young man I ran into while I was at church one day.
I happened to be sitting next to him , and in our small talk he spoke about talking to two Mormons at the door, and their newer Bible that they carried.

That is the point where I was inspired to show the young man what I had read about the things the two Mormon guys at the door did not tell him about these so-called witnesses to the BOM>

I will always remember how at first he simply could not believe what I was telling him.
At first he had the idea that i was making this all up.
Then next he felt that the source I was quoting had to be making this stuff up.

Then he felt that there must be some type of explanation that the Mormons have that renders all this stuff i was saying as moot?

Only after he had started to read some of the history himself did it start to make an impact on him as to how much the Book Of Mormon's eye witness support is "Not worth squat".....




After that whole experience I have helped a few other people over the years learn the truth about the BOM true history .
Mostly I just put the information out there and if the person is interested, it can help them get started on their own search for the truth.

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

[B][I][SIZE=4]Conclusion:

Some Mormons will agree that all three witnesses denied the book of Mormon but came back to deny their denial.

Cite, please.

You got caught in the windmill:

Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post"All the Mormon witnesses are as worthless as they are unreliable who recanted their testimony."
http://www.bible.ca/mor-witness-book.htm

Alan--please allow me to print a statement made concerning the above reference:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Mormon_witnesses

"None of the Eight Witnesses is known to have denied his testimony to the authenticity of Book of Mormon or the golden plates."

So--where does that leave your testimony?

[DrDavidT]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

I see others have noticed that we seem to have a guest that is caught in a loop of simply copy/pasting the same stuff over and over.....

Let us hope that the person can work themselves out of the hole they are digging for themselves.
We do have a rule that talks about this type pf spamming of the forum with the same stuff,,,,

Can we get past this repe***ive posting of the same information please. it is annoying, and doe snot improve any discussion

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by DrDavidT

Can we get past this repe***ive posting of the same information please. it is annoying, and doe snot improve any discussion

the way it works around here is that when we start to see that one of the guests is posting in a manner that might be against the rules, or shows bad manners, etc...is that we first try to speak to the person and point them in the right direction...

Ok, that has totally failed in this instance...


next, when a person is simply not taking the advice of others on how to avoid problems, is that we confront the person a bit more openly...

Ok, I tried that, still had zero results ...

At this point, what we say is that, "If it happens again ___"



What we are aiming for is for the person in question to slightly adjust their posting style, and be more in conformity with the listed rules, so that we dont need to bump this up to the "next Level" of reporting....for at that point things can go to the place where people have to find new websites to play at...

and while I dont really follow the Mormons discussions, and really dont care who wins debates or who scores points...I do kinda feel that the loss of a guest on a forum that is so empty of new posts is a reflection on my not being able to impress on each guest how this place can be a lot of fun if people would only stick to the rules that they actually gave their word already that they would follow...

[DrDavidT]

okay I leave it in your hands

[alanmolstad]

I sent a PM....thats about the most I can go in attempting to help anyone stay out of trouble.

There is a rule against posting the same stuff all the time..

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

I sent a PM....thats about the most I can go in attempting to help anyone stay out of trouble.

I believe the trouble started when you made the statement you have yet to reconcile:

Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post"All the Mormon witnesses are as worthless as they are unreliable who recanted their testimony."
http://www.bible.ca/mor-witness-book.htm

Alan--the very quote in your pasted source states this:

"None of the Eight Witnesses is known to have denied his testimony to the authenticity of Book of Mormon or the golden plates."

Could you reconcile that for us?