Where are the verses?

[DrDavidT]

I have made several posts asking dberrie to place on the board any bible verse that has Jesus teaching that lucifer is his brother, god is a being who needs help, to wear magic underwear, to hold secret ceremonies, and other key mormon doctrine but so far he has ignored all those requests.

I thought it would be wise to place the request in one thread so he could find it easier and place all of them in one spot so everyone can see this teaching. Of course any mormon is free to post such scripture, this isn't limited to dberrie

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by DrDavidT

I have made several posts asking dberrie to place on the board any bible verse that has Jesus teaching that lucifer is his brother, god is a being who needs help, to wear magic underwear, to hold secret ceremonies, and other key mormon doctrine but so far he has ignored all those requests.

I thought it would be wise to place the request in one thread so he could find it easier and place all of them in one spot so everyone can see this teaching. Of course any mormon is free to post such scripture, this isn't limited to dberrie

Let's start with the secret manna:

Revelation 2:17---King James Version (KJV)
17 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the hidden manna, and will give him a white stone, and in the stone a new name written, which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth it.

Now--could you tell us where the term "faith alone" is found in the Bible?

[DrDavidT]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

Let's start with the secret manna:

Revelation 2:17---King James Version (KJV)
17 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the hidden manna, and will give him a white stone, and in the stone a new name written, which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth it.

Now--could you tell us where the term "faith alone" is found in the Bible?

sorry but this is a thread about bible verses supporting mormon teaching. that verse does not support mormon practices of giving a new name to people. for it does not teach that the church is to do that but that Jesus will do it.

so you are 0 for 1

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post Let's start with the secret manna:

Revelation 2:17---King James Version (KJV)
17 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the hidden manna, and will give him a white stone, and in the stone a new name written, which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth it.

Now--could you tell us where the term "faith alone" is found in the Bible?

Originally Posted by DrDavidT

sorry but this is a thread about bible verses supporting mormon teaching. that verse does not support mormon practices of giving a new name to people.

It supports giving a new name which is not known to anyone but themselves--- to God's elect. All LDS who have been through the Temple Endowment have received their new names--which no man knoweth saving him that receiveth it.

Now--where do we find the term "faith alone" in the Bible?

[DrDavidT]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

It supports giving a new name which is not known to anyone but themselves--- to God's elect. All LDS who have been through the Temple Endowment have received their new names--which no man knoweth saving him that receiveth it.

Now--where do we find the term "faith alone" in the Bible?

No they don't. As I said there is no instruction for the church to do that.

this is a thread for you to post the scriptures I have requested

[DrDavidT]

i will ask for more verses when i think of more mormon ideology that needs scriptural support.

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by DrDavidT

i will ask for more verses when i think of more mormon ideology that needs scriptural support.

good one David...

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post

Revelation 2:17---King James Version (KJV)
17 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the hidden manna, and will give him a white stone, and in the stone a new name written, which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth it.

It supports giving a new name which is not known to anyone but themselves--- to God's elect. All LDS who have been through the Temple Endowment have received their new names--which no man knoweth saving him that receiveth it.

Now--where do we find the term "faith alone" in the Bible?

Originally Posted by DrDavidT

No they don't.

Hi David:

Taint so!! answers are neither convincing nor compelling. Care to answer to the above scripture--and my posted answer?

Could you please offer us some explanation of why you can't find the term "faith alone" to offer us-- in the Biblical text?

The very post and pillar of your theology--and you can't find it in the Bible?

[hogan60]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

Hi David:

Taint so!! answers are neither convincing nor compelling. Care to answer to the above scripture--and my posted answer?

Could you please offer us some explanation of why you can't find the term "faith alone" to offer us-- in the Biblical text?

The very post and pillar of your theology--and you can't find it in the Bible?

Romans 5:1 Therefore, since we have been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ.

Ephesians 2:8-9 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast.

Romans 3:28 For we hold that one is justified by faith apart from works of the law.

Galatians 2:16 Yet we know that a person is not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, so we also have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified.

Romans 4:5 And to the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness,

Gal 5:6 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision counts for anything, but only faith working through love.


dberrie, do you see obedience or works being necessary in any of these verses?

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by hogan60

Romans 5:1 Therefore, since we have been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ.

Ephesians 2:8-9 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast.

Romans 3:28 For we hold that one is justified by faith apart from works of the law.

Galatians 2:16 Yet we know that a person is not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, so we also have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified.

Romans 4:5 And to the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness,

Gal 5:6 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision counts for anything, but only faith working through love.

dberrie, do you see obedience or works being necessary in any of these verses?

Hi Hogan--and a good morning to you:

Since Paul was referring to rituals under the Mosaic Law when he used the terms "works", "works of the Law", "the law", etc--then no, his "works" would not be necessary for salvation.

If one is referring to obedience to the gospel, as works, as James and the others used the term "works"--then yes, that is connected to salvation, IE--

Romans 6:16---King James Version (KJV)
16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

Romans 2:5-11---King James Version (KJV)
5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
11 For there is no respect of persons with God.

Here, Paul distinguishes between the "works of the law" and obedience to the gospel:

1 Corinthians 7:19---King James Version (KJV)
19 Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God.

Hogan--could you explain for us how one could avoid the condemnation spoken of here--without obeying the ten commandments?

Galatians 5:19-21---King James Version (KJV)
19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

[hogan60]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

Hi Hogan--and a good morning to you:

Since Paul was referring to rituals under the Mosaic Law when he used the terms "works", "works of the Law", "the law", etc--then no, his "works" would not be necessary for salvation.

If one is referring to obedience to the gospel, as works, as James and the others used the term "works"--then yes, that is connected to salvation, IE--

Romans 6:16---King James Version (KJV)
16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

Romans 2:5-11---King James Version (KJV)
5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
11 For there is no respect of persons with God.

Here, Paul distinguishes between the "works of the law" and obedience to the gospel:

1 Corinthians 7:19---King James Version (KJV)
19 Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God.

Hogan--could you explain for us how one could avoid the condemnation spoken of here--without obeying the ten commandments?

Galatians 5:19-21---King James Version (KJV)
19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

If works and obedience are necessary to be saved, then why did Jesus say to those who were religious in Matt 21:3 “the publicans and the harlots go into the kingdom of God before you.” ?

Gal 5:19-21 Is talking about unbelievers and their works of the flesh. (sins). Unbelievers will not inherit the kingdom of God. You left out the verses immediately after where Paul mentions the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law. Here he speaks of the Believer, the one who is already saved.

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by hogan60

If works and obedience are necessary to be saved, then why did Jesus say to those who were religious in Matt 21:3 “the publicans and the harlots go into the kingdom of God before you.” ?

Because those He addressed were just what He termed them as--hypocrites. IOW--they professed one belief--but did contrary to the law.

Gal 5:19-21 Is talking about unbelievers and their works of the flesh. (sins). Unbelievers will not inherit the kingdom of God.

That only connects belief and works together.

Paul did not differentiate between the professed believer and the unbeliever, as to who the message was directed to:

Galatians 5:19-21---King James Version (KJV)
19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

IOW--if there were those in the church, which did those things--they would suffer a like fate the unbelievers do--they would not inherit eternal life. That connects works and salvation, whoever one believes it is directed to.

You left out the verses immediately after where Paul mentions the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law. Here he speaks of the Believer, the one who is already saved.

Christ addresses the believer, and the unbeliever-- all along.

Romans 2:5-11---King James Version (KJV)
5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
11 For there is no respect of persons with God.

[alanmolstad]

actually.....

what the Bible is telling us is that its pointless to think they your actions keep you saved,.

The bible goes on and on and makes a list of all the things that the unsaved people do...and if you look at that list you will find at some point something that every person in the church is guilty of...LOL

The point is that if you think you are ever going to merit being saved you are as lost as they who have totally rejected the truth.

This is designed to aim the heart of the christian, not at looking at their own works as being worthy , but at the idea of giving up the 'works-salvation": mindset, and taking on the Life of Christ.

This is why when I go to the final judgement, and the book of my life is opened, the only things written there are of the life of Christ that I have been given credit for.

This this is why for any Christian there is
No condemnation".....there is no sins listed...no faults...not even the smallest private thought listed as a charge against us.



Thus when someone points to a Bible verse that lists all the works of the unsaved, you should just smile and say, "Yes, very true, and Im guilty of being on that list, and so are you"



Thats the point God is making by telling us the list...so that we understand that without God's total forgiveness we are lost......

[hogan60]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

Because those He addressed were just what He termed them as--hypocrites. IOW--they professed one belief--but did contrary to the law.



.[/COLOR][/B]

Matthew 21:32 "For John came unto you in the way of righteousness, and ye believed him not: but the publicans and the harlots believed him: and ye, when ye had seen it repented not afterward, that ye might believe him."


Publicans and the harlots, the pariahs of Jewish society, had found salvation, while the self-righteous leaders with all their rules and regulations had not.

So what's the requirement here: faith or works? I don't see works mentioned at all here, but the religious leaders believed works were necessary.

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

actually.....

what the Bible is telling us is that its pointless to think they your actions keep you saved,.

The Biblical record testifies to this truth:

Matthew 10:22---King James Version (KJV)
22 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.

[alanmolstad]

But then we come to the point of helping people overcome their sins...

The idea that Paul is talking about is all based on the same idea that jesus talked abpout.

It's not that we Christians dont still sin,,,for Giod knows full well we do and we will continue to sin all our lives.

God knows from the start that each person will never earn their own salvation, nor ever in a million-Billion years ever be able to maintain their own salvation via their own works..

rather what Jesus and paul talk about is 'how' to overcome sins in your life.

When Jesus talks about is to make a decision to separate yourself from the sin in your life.
The "Pluck out your eye that caused you to sin" idea that jesus talks about is very much connected to Paul's idea of "fleeing" sin.

They both are talking about the christian deciding to live a different way....Paul talks about how the Christian is washed and made clean,,,and this shows us that we are already made clean in God's eyes...

This agrees with the words of paul where he talks about putting out the man that is filled with sin,,,to not even eat with him,
Paul was not just talking about some "other guy"...NO!..he was talking about what each of us carry with us in our hearts!

Thats the "other person" we are to put out of the church....its that sinfulness inside each of us that we are to drive out.

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by hogan60

Matthew 21:32 "For John came unto you in the way of righteousness, and ye believed him not: but the publicans and the harlots believed him: and ye, when ye had seen it repented not afterward, that ye might believe him."

Publicans and the harlots, the pariahs of Jewish society, had found salvation, while the self-righteous leaders with all their rules and regulations had not.

Because their leaders were hypocrites--and did not obey Christ.

Matthew 7:19-23--King James Version (KJV)
19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

But then we come to the point of helping people overcome their sins...

The idea that Paul is talking about is all based on the same idea that jesus talked abpout.

It's not that we Christians dont still sin,,,for Giod knows full well we do and we will continue to sin all our lives.

God knows from the start that each person will never earn their own salvation, nor ever in a million-Billion years ever be able to maintain their own salvation via their own works..

rather what Jesus and paul talk about is 'how' to overcome sins in your life.

When Jesus talks about is to make a decision to separate yourself from the sin in your life.

Is this the way the Biblical text testifies to --as the way?

Acts 2:38---King James Version (KJV)
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

[hogan60]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

The Biblical record testifies to this truth:

Matthew 10:22---King James Version (KJV)
22 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.

He that endures till the end is talking about those who survive the Tribulation. See also Matt 24:13. Matthew 24 is known as the Tribulation chapter.

[hogan60]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

Because their leaders were hypocrites--and did not obey Christ.

Matthew 7:19-23--King James Version (KJV)
19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

The leaders believed in rules and regulations. How does this differ from Mormonism?

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by hogan60

He that endures till the end is talking about those who survive the Tribulation. See also Matt 24:13. Matthew 24 is known as the Tribulation chapter.

I don't see anything about the "Tribulation" there--as the faith alone describe it. There are tribulations for all of us--including those whom Jesus was addressing. None will endure this mortal life without tribulations.

Those who endure will be saved:

Matthew 10:22---King James Version (KJV)
22 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.

1 Timothy 4:16---King James Version (KJV)
16 Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee.

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by hogan60

The leaders believed in rules and regulations. How does this differ from Mormonism?

So--did Jesus believe in "rules and regulations"?

Matthew 19:16-19---King James Version (KJV)
16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

Did Abraham?

Genesis 26:4-5---King James Version (KJV)
4 And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed;
5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

[DrDavidT]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

Hi David:

Taint so!! answers are neither convincing nor compelling. Care to answer to the above scripture--and my posted answer?

Could you please offer us some explanation of why you can't find the term "faith alone" to offer us-- in the Biblical text?

The very post and pillar of your theology--and you can't find it in the Bible?

You seem to have a problem understanding the purpose of this thread- JUST LIKE HOGAN DOES-- I placed this thread here for you to place bible p***ages which support mormon ideology. You came close but those verses do not grant the church or humans permission to give new names to other humans. The mormons have taken something that is not theirs and used it for their own purposes. THIS THREAD is ONLY for discussing scripture that supposedly supports specfic mormon practices that I WILL ASK ABOUT

[DrDavidT]

DBERRIE---- I am still waiting for those scriptures that teach that Jesus is Lucifer's brother, we have to wear special underwear (the wedding garment we can discuss later), that god reproduced spiritual children and needs help giving them a human body (this one seems to make your god very impotent). I get to more later when you respond to these

[hogan60]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

I don't see anything about the "Tribulation" there--as the faith alone describe it. There are tribulations for all of us--including those whom Jesus was addressing. None will endure this mortal life without tribulations.

Those who endure will be saved:

Matthew 10:22---King James Version (KJV)
22 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.

1 Timothy 4:16---King James Version (KJV)
16 Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee.

Matthew 24 is about the Tribulation. We can't pull out a verse or p***age such as verse 13: " But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved," to try and make lds doctrine.

Read the whole chapter. Jesus is answering the disciples questions about the destruction of Jerusalem. They wanted to know when it would be destroyed, and what signs would precede the end of the age. (the gospel would be preached to all nations and they would see the abomination of desolation). After talking about the abomination of desolation, Jesus talks about the great tribulation.

Matthew 24:21 "For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.."