Where are the verses?

[DrDavidT]

Originally Posted by hogan60

Matthew 24 is about the Tribulation. We can't pull out a verse or p***age such as verse 13: " But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved," to try and make lds doctrine.

Read the whole chapter. Jesus is answering the disciples questions about the destruction of Jerusalem. They wanted to know when it would be destroyed, and what signs would precede the end of the age. (the gospel would be preached to all nations and they would see the abomination of desolation). After talking about the abomination of desolation, Jesus talks about the great tribulation.

Matthew 24:21 "For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.."

It is certainly tiring to see a good thread derailed

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by hogan60

Matthew 24 is about the Tribulation. We can't pull out a verse or p***age such as verse 13: " But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved," to try and make lds doctrine

Hi Hogan:

Matthew 10:22 was not written to make LDS doctrine--it was testified to because it is truth.

That the LDS doctrine matches the Biblical testimony is hardly coincidence:

Matthew 10:22---King James Version (KJV)
22 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.

What is found in the Biblical NT, as far as salvational doctrines go--is also found in the LDS church.

Hogan--the faith alone share precious little in common with the Biblical NT.

1 Timothy 4:16---King James Version (KJV)
16 Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee.

Hebrews 3:14---King James Version (KJV)
14 For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;

Hebrews 6:4-8---King James Version (KJV)
4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
7 For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God:
8 But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.

2 Peter 2:20-22---King James Version (KJV)
20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.

[hogan60]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

Hi Hogan:

Matthew 10:22 was not written to make LDS doctrine--it was testified to because it is truth.

That the LDS doctrine matches the Biblical testimony is hardly coincidence:

Matthew 10:22---King James Version (KJV)
22 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.

What is found in the Biblical NT, as far as salvational doctrines go--is also found in the LDS church.

Hogan--the faith alone share precious little in common with the Biblical NT.

1 Timothy 4:16---King James Version (KJV)
16 Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee.

Hebrews 3:14---King James Version (KJV)
14 For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;

Hebrews 6:4-8---King James Version (KJV)
4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
7 For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God:
8 But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.

2 Peter 2:20-22---King James Version (KJV)
20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.

We were talking about Matthew 24 which is the Tribulation Chapter, but then you switched to Matthew 10:22

Mat 10:22.. "And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved."

This verse does not mean it is up to us, in our own strength, to endure to the end of our lives and then hopefully we will have done enough good works to get into Heaven. The truth of this verse is that only those who are saved and have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit will be able to endure all the persecutions and hard times they will face.

dberrie, do you have ***urance of your salvation? YES or NO?

Are you worthy enough yet? YES or NO?

How will you ever know if you have done enough?

The gospel of the mormon church is an "impossible gospel." The Gospel of Jesus Christ is to believe on Him alone for salvation. Then one's sins, past, present and future are washed by His blood. Christians are expected to produce good fruit throughout their lives as evidence that they are truly Christ's. We do this because we are saved and eternally thankful for the finished work of Christ on the cross. Christ did for us what we cannot do ourselves.


dberrie, for mormons to justify the existence of the Mormon church, they first must present concrete proof that the gospel of Jesus Christ was lost from the earth. That Jesus Christ, the Apostles, Paul and all their followers bumbled, apostatized, utterly failed to keep it going. That God stood by and watched helplessly. The Bible does talk about apostasies but they are always partial, never complete. God always had a faithful remnant throughout Biblical history.

Reformation is NOT the same as restoration. The Reformation came about because the RCC was not faithful to the Holy Scriptures. Rather, they were teaching man made traditions. They left the Word of God and added works. They became a wealthy, hierarchical en***y which Christ never established.

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by hogan60

We were talking about Matthew 24 which is the Tribulation Chapter, but then you switched to Matthew 10:22

Hi Hogan:

I don't find any mention of Matthew 24 in my posts--it started out Matthew10:22--and remained Matthew10:22--along with additional supporting scripture, IE--

Matthew 10:22---King James Version (KJV)
22 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.

1 Timothy 4:16---King James Version (KJV)
16 Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee.

Hebrews 3:14---King James Version (KJV)
14 For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;

Hebrews 6:4-8---King James Version (KJV)
4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
7 For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God:
8 But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.

2 Peter 2:20-22---King James Version (KJV)
20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.

Hogan--care to address those scriptures?

Mat 10:22.. "And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved."

This verse does not mean it is up to us, in our own strength, to endure to the end of our lives and then hopefully we will have done enough good works to get into Heaven. The truth of this verse is that only those who are saved and have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit will be able to endure all the persecutions and hard times they will face.

The scriptures testify those who endure to the end will be saved. IOW--enduring to the end is a condition of being saved.

dberrie, do you have ***urance of your salvation? YES or NO?

Are you worthy enough yet? YES or NO?

Whether I do or don't--how are you relating that to what the scriptures testify to above?

Hogan--this is the usual line the faith alone pursue, whenever they see the scriptures testify against them--and they have no where else to go, IMO.

Care to address the above scriptures?

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by hogan60

The gospel of the mormon church is an "impossible gospel."

Hi Hogan:

IMO--what seems "impossible"--is trying to fit faith alone theology into the Biblical NT text:

Matthew 10:22---King James Version (KJV)
22 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.

1 Timothy 4:16---King James Version (KJV)
16 Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee.

Hebrews 3:14---King James Version (KJV)
14 For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;

Hebrews 6:4-8---King James Version (KJV)
4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
7 For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God:
8 But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.

2 Peter 2:20-22---King James Version (KJV)
20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.

All of those scriptures fit LDS theology. How do you fit faith alone theology into those scriptures?

[hogan60]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

Hi Hogan:

I don't find any mention of Matthew 24 in my posts--it started out Matthew10:22--and remained Matthew10:22--along with additional supporting scripture, IE--

Matthew 10:22---King James Version (KJV)
22 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.

1 Timothy 4:16---King James Version (KJV)
16 Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee.

Hebrews 3:14---King James Version (KJV)
14 For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;

Hebrews 6:4-8---King James Version (KJV)
4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
7 For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God:
8 But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.

2 Peter 2:20-22---King James Version (KJV)
20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.

Hogan--care to address those scriptures?



The scriptures testify those who endure to the end will be saved. IOW--enduring to the end is a condition of being saved.



Whether I do or don't--how are you relating that to what the scriptures testify to above?

Hogan--this is the usual line the faith alone pursue, whenever they see the scriptures testify against them--and they have no where else to go, IMO.

Care to address the above scriptures?

I have always tried to answer your questions and would prefer if you would do the same instead of asking me more questions.

do you have ***urance of your salvation? YES or NO?

Are you worthy enough yet? YES or NO?

How will you ever know if you have done enough?

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by hogan60

I have always tried to answer your questions and would prefer if you would do the same instead of asking me more questions.

do you have ***urance of your salvation? YES or NO?

Are you worthy enough yet? YES or NO?

How will you ever know if you have done enough?

Hi Hogan--

I'll let God judge that--as He will, regardless. My and your duty, IMO-- is to believe the scriptures:

Matthew 10:22---King James Version (KJV)
22 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.

1 Timothy 4:16---King James Version (KJV)
16 Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee.

Hebrews 3:14---King James Version (KJV)
14 For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;

Hebrews 6:4-8---King James Version (KJV)
4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
7 For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God:
8 But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.

2 Peter 2:20-22---King James Version (KJV)
20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.


So, Hogan--are the scripture true independent of my (or your--or anyone's) obedience--or, are the scriptures only true if I meet all your conditions above?

Hogan--do you care to address the scriptures? They are the ones which testify against faith alone theology, IMO.

[hogan60]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

Hi Hogan--

I'll let God judge that--as He will, regardless. My and your duty, IMO-- is to believe the scriptures:

Matthew 10:22---King James Version (KJV)
22 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.

1 Timothy 4:16---King James Version (KJV)
16 Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee.

Hebrews 3:14---King James Version (KJV)
14 For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;

Hebrews 6:4-8---King James Version (KJV)
4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
7 For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God:
8 But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.

2 Peter 2:20-22---King James Version (KJV)
20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.


So, Hogan--are the scripture true independent of my (or your--or anyone's) obedience--or, are the scriptures only true if I meet all your conditions above?

Hogan--do you care to address the scriptures? They are the ones which testify against faith alone theology, IMO.

hi deberrie, you're still dodging my questions. I cannot answer yours unless you are willing to do the same.

Do you have ***urance of your salvation?


Are you doing enough good works? How can you ever know?



Born again Christians will endure because its not what we do, but what Christ did for us.

John 6:39 KJV And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

John 10:29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.


Eph 4:30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.


John 10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

1 Pet 1:5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post Hi Hogan--

I'll let God judge that--as He will, regardless. My and your duty, IMO-- is to believe the scriptures:

Matthew 10:22---King James Version (KJV)
22 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.

1 Timothy 4:16---King James Version (KJV)
16 Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee.

Hebrews 3:14---King James Version (KJV)
14 For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;

Hebrews 6:4-8---King James Version (KJV)
4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
7 For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God:
8 But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.

2 Peter 2:20-22---King James Version (KJV)
20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.


So, Hogan--are the scripture true independent of my (or your--or anyone's) obedience--or, are the scriptures only true if I meet all your conditions above?

Hogan--do you care to address the scriptures? They are the ones which testify against faith alone theology, IMO.

Originally Posted by hogan60

hi deberrie, you're still dodging my questions. I cannot answer yours unless you are willing to do the same.

Do you have ***urance of your salvation?


Are you doing enough good works? How can you ever know?

Hi Hogan:

I'm not going into personal judgment with you, so you will have to make your mind up if you are willing to discuss the Biblical witness, and it's truths. I consider your approach into personal judgment a diversion, and a common one, whenever one has to face scriptures which violate their theology, IMO.

Let's stuck with the Bible--as that is where we can find God's truths--not in being drawn off into subjects of our personal opinions.

Again--do you care to address the above scriptures--or have scriptures you would like to discuss--which is appertaining to the above subject?

[hogan60]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

Hi Hogan:

I'm not going into personal judgment with you, so you will have to make your mind up if you are willing to discuss the Biblical witness, and it's truths. I consider your approach into personal judgment a diversion, and a common one, whenever one has to face scriptures which violate their theology, IMO.

Let's stuck with the Bible--as that is where we can find God's truths--not in being drawn off into subjects of our personal opinions.

Again--do you care to address the above scriptures--or have scriptures you would like to discuss--which is appertaining to the above subject?

Its not personal judgement, dberrie. We are talking about your eternal soul which should not be taken lightly. Its important to understand what the Holy Bibles says about our eternal destiny. This is why I asked you these questions because if you can't answer them then you better make sure where you are going when this life is over. The Bible clearly teaches only 2 destinations: heaven or hell. If it depends on you working hard enough to try to be worthy, then you won't make it to heaven. The bible says all have fallen short. All are guilty. No one is righteous. Apart from the blood of Christ, you can't get to heaven.

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by hogan60

Its not personal judgement, dberrie. We are talking about your eternal soul which should not be taken lightly.

Hi Hogan:

I am going to rely on Christ for that, but thank you for the concern.

As for the gospel truths--let's stick with the Bible:

Matthew 10:22---King James Version (KJV)
22 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.

1 Timothy 4:16---King James Version (KJV)
16 Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee.

Hebrews 3:14---King James Version (KJV)
14 For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;

Hebrews 6:4-8---King James Version (KJV)
4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
7 For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God:
8 But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.

2 Peter 2:20-22---King James Version (KJV)
20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.

Hogan--how do you fit those verses into your theology?

It fits the LDS theology well.

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by hogan60

Apart from the blood of Christ, you can't get to heaven.

I agree--and this is what the Biblical record testifies to, according to the Blood of Christ:

1 John 1:7---King James Version (KJV)
7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.


How do you fit that into faith alone theology?

It fits the LDS theology well.

[hogan60]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

I agree--and this is what the Biblical record testifies to, according to the Blood of Christ:

1 John 1:7---King James Version (KJV)
7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.


How do you fit that into faith alone theology?

It fits the LDS theology well.

Christians who are born again (in Christ) are walking in the light. I do not see works in this verse.

lds theology is irrelevant unless you can prove the gospel was lost from the earth. Its just as irrelevant as Jehovah's Witnesses' theology. As I said in an earlier post. Reformation is not the same as restoration.

[hogan60]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

Hi Hogan:

I am going to rely on Christ for that, but thank you for the concern.

As for the gospel truths--let's stick with the Bible:

Matthew 10:22---King James Version (KJV)
22 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.

1 Timothy 4:16---King James Version (KJV)
16 Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee.

Hebrews 3:14---King James Version (KJV)
14 For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;

Hebrews 6:4-8---King James Version (KJV)
4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
7 For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God:
8 But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.

2 Peter 2:20-22---King James Version (KJV)
20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.

Hogan--how do you fit those verses into your theology?

It fits the LDS theology well.

dberrie, I already addressed Heb. 6:4-:8. These Jews had tasted, but had not fully "swallowed." the gospel of grace. They were still mixing it with Judaism.

I addressed 1 Tim. 4:16. Paul was giving Timothy, a pastor advice on pastoring. He was telling Timothy to keep preaching the Truth, as Paul taught and thereby his congregation would not be led astray.

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by hogan60

dberrie, I already addressed Heb. 6:4-:8. These Jews had tasted, but had not fully "swallowed." the gospel of grace.

Since much of faith alone theology states one is saved the instant one believes--could you explain for us what "swallowing" the gospel of grace involves?

Are you claiming those who were made partakers of the Holy Ghost were not saved?

Philippians 2:12---King James Version (KJV)
12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

[DrDavidT]

AGAIN HOGAN--- do you have verses which support mormon ideology? i.e. where Jesus taught that lucifer was his brother and other topics? if NOT then please refrain from interrupting a discussion.

I want dberrie or other mormons to present the scriptures supporting their ideology.

yes i am ticked off.

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by DrDavidT

AGAIN HOGAN--- do you have verses which support mormon ideology? i.e. where Jesus taught that lucifer was his brother and other topics? if NOT then please refrain from interrupting a discussion.

I want dberrie or other mormons to present the scriptures supporting their ideology.

yes i am ticked off.

Hi David:

You have not addressed the posted Biblical scriptures which support LDS theology:

Matthew 10:22---King James Version (KJV)
22 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.

1 Timothy 4:16---King James Version (KJV)
16 Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee.

Hebrews 3:14---King James Version (KJV)
14 For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;

Hebrews 6:4-8---King James Version (KJV)
4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
7 For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God:
8 But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.

2 Peter 2:20-22---King James Version (KJV)
20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.

Care to address those scriptures?

[hogan60]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

Since much of faith alone theology states one is saved the instant one believes--could you explain for us what "swallowing" the gospel of grace involves?

Are you claiming those who were made partakers of the Holy Ghost were not saved?

Philippians 2:12---King James Version (KJV)
12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

Hi dberrie, can you tell me what these verses mean?


Galatains 3:6-13

6. Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.

7 Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.

8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.

9 So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.

10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.

11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.

12 And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.

13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:

[hogan60]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

Since much of faith alone theology states one is saved the instant one believes--could you explain for us what "swallowing" the gospel of grace involves?

Are you claiming those who were made partakers of the Holy Ghost were not saved?

Philippians 2:12---King James Version (KJV)
12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

Its real simple, dberrie, a lot of these Jews had not yet made the break from Judaism and embraced Jesus as the Messiah. putting that (law keeping) behind them and moving into Paul’s doctrines of Grace. Faith plus nothing, as we see in I Corinthians 15:1-4. It is possible for someone to be enlightened. To have the Holy Spirit open their understanding. They may even have an emotional experience; they may walk an aisle to respond to an altar call. They may do all the different things that a church requires of them, but they never took it hook, line and sinker.

To fall from grace means to go back to law (commandment) keeping.

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by hogan60

Its real simple, dberrie, a lot of these Jews had not yet made the break from Judaism and embraced Jesus as the Messiah. putting that (law keeping) behind them and moving into Paul’s doctrines of Grace. Faith plus nothing, as we see in I Corinthians 15:1-4.

Hi Hogan:

1 Corinthians 15:1-4---King James Version (KJV)
1 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:

So--were these some of the things they should remember which Paul preached to them--or else their belief was in vain?

1 Corinthians 6:9-10---King James Version (KJV)
9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

Romans 6:16---King James Version (KJV)
16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

To fall from grace means to go back to law (commandment) keeping.

1 John 2:3-4---King James Version (KJV)
3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

Can liars inherit the kingdom of God?

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by hogan60

Hi dberrie, can you tell me what these verses mean?

Galatains 3:6-13

6. Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.

7 Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.

8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.

9 So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.

10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.

11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.

12 And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.

13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:

It means Abraham lived under the gospel--not the Mosaic Law.

And this is what Abraham did to receive the promises under the gospel:

Genesis 26:4-5---King James Version (KJV)
4 And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed;
5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

That was Abraham's faith in Christ.

James 2:22-24---King James Version (KJV)
22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

IOW--when Abraham combined his faith and works together--"Abraham believed God,"

[hogan60]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

It means Abraham lived under the gospel--not the Mosaic Law.

And this is what Abraham did to receive the promises under the gospel:

Genesis 26:4-5---King James Version (KJV)
4 And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed;
5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

That was Abraham's faith in Christ.

James 2:22-24---King James Version (KJV)
22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

IOW--when Abraham combined his faith and works together--"Abraham believed God,"

What gospel did Abraham live under? Was it the gospel of grace that Paul taught?

Did Abraham believe God or Jesus Christ? Was his faith in God or in Jesus Christ?

[hogan60]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

It means Abraham lived under the gospel--not the Mosaic Law.

And this is what Abraham did to receive the promises under the gospel:

Genesis 26:4-5---King James Version (KJV)
4 And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed;
5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

That was Abraham's faith in Christ.

James 2:22-24---King James Version (KJV)
22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

IOW--when Abraham combined his faith and works together--"Abraham believed God,"

What gospel did Abraham live under? Was it the gospel of grace that Paul taught?

Did Abraham believe God or Jesus Christ? Was his faith in God or in Jesus Christ?

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post It means Abraham lived under the gospel--not the Mosaic Law.

And this is what Abraham did to receive the promises under the gospel:

Genesis 26:4-5---King James Version (KJV)
4 And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed;
5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

That was Abraham's faith in Christ.

James 2:22-24---King James Version (KJV)
22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

IOW--when Abraham combined his faith and works together--"Abraham believed God,"

Originally Posted by hogan60

What gospel did Abraham live under?

If it wasn't the gospel of Jesus Christ--was it the gospel at all?

Galatians 3:8---King James Version (KJV)

8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.

Was it the gospel of grace that Paul taught?

The gospel is the same whenever it is taught.

Did Abraham believe God or Jesus Christ? Was his faith in God or in Jesus Christ?

I was not under the impression there was a difference. The LDS believe it was God the Son which was the God of both the OT and the NT, as Paul taught:

1 Corinthians 10:1-4---King James Version (KJV)
1 Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all p***ed through the sea;
2 And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea;
3 And did all eat the same spiritual meat;
4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.

[hogan60]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

If it wasn't the gospel of Jesus Christ--was it the gospel at all?

Galatians 3:8---King James Version (KJV)

8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.



The gospel is the same whenever it is taught.



I was not under the impression there was a difference. The LDS believe it was God the Son which was the God of both the OT and the NT, as Paul taught:

1 Corinthians 10:1-4---King James Version (KJV)
1 Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all p***ed through the sea;
2 And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea;
3 And did all eat the same spiritual meat;
4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.

Dberrie, Abraham did only one thing that caused God to credit it to him as righteousness. He Believed in the One True God. That was obedience. There was no works he did at that time. He had just left behind a polytheistic people. They believed in false gods,. Abraham came out of that and said he believed in the one true God. That's all he did and that's all that was required. AFTER he was saved, God gave him commands which Abraham obeyed. Nowhere did God tell him that through perfect obedience Abraham could one day become a god himself.

The lds version of Jesus Christ is that he was a man like us , who through obedience, earned exaltation. That is is not the Biblical Jehovah of the OT or the Christ of the NT. The Scriptures are clear that Jesus Christ preexisted with God the Father. We see God the Father at Creation and also the Word and the Spirit. Colossians says that Christ made all things. God said He will not share His glory with another, yet He always shared glory with Jesus Christ because they are one.

The reason you stress so much on "obedience" and pull out those verses that have the word "obey" or "obedience" in them is because the lds church teaches that men can become gods someday. The Bible nowhere teaches this. We will never be like Christ who is God, the Son. He was never created. We are.

Again, I ask you, which gospel was Abraham under? Was it the gospel Paul taught or the mormon gospel? Paul called the gospel of grace his gospel, meaning he was the first to teach it as he learned it from the risen Christ. it was never taught before until after the death and resurrection of Christ. Did the Israelites know of the gospel as taught by Paul? They were under the law. Grace did not come in till after Christ died on the cross.This is why Jesus never taught grace to the apostles. They were still under law. So Jesus would say keep the commandments.

Abraham was before the law was given to the Jews. He obeyed God first by believing in Him. That's how he was saved. Then God was able to use him and make a covenant with him.