Where are the verses?

[alanmolstad]

Doesn't matter squat if they show up with all kinds of angel music and smoke, and even brought treats for the whole cl***....

[alanmolstad]

Does not matter if a voice from heaven was heard saying "Listen to him!"

Does not matter if angels and archangels and all the company of heaven , all joined in singing "Listen to him".

Does not matter if the sky opened up and there was seen in the eternal void the words, "Listen to him" written with light of children's dreams .

it would not matter squat.....


For none of that would matter...it would all be a moot point...

and I would not listen.

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

Does not matter if a voice from heaven was heard saying "Listen to him!"

It matters to me--I listen to those heavenly revelations:

1 Corinthians 8:6---King James Version (KJV)
6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

1 Timothy 2:5--King James Version (KJV)
5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

Ephesians 4:4-6--King James Version (KJV)
4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;
5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

1 Peter 1:3--King James Version (KJV)
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

John 17:3---King James Version (KJV)
3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

Alan--could you explain for us what it is about those scriptures which might not matter to you?

It fits LDS theology well. How do you fit your theology into those verses?

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

it matters to me--i listen to those heavenly revelations:

.....

well duh,
.............

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

.....

Alan--could you explain for us what it is about those scriptures ....?

....

You forgot John 1:1

I will start what that one if you like?

[alanmolstad]

There are three Persons – Father, Son, Holy Spirit, and these three share the same attributes. In effect, the three Persons are the One God.

All we are saying very simply is – that within God’s Unity or Nature, we can discern 3 distinct Persons, so far as you and I are able to understand Persons.

And, these three Persons are in effect the One God. That’s the Christian Doctrine of the Trinity – what that revelation is.

Now one of the cardinal rules of interpreting the Bible is this: You always interpret the Old Testament in the light of the New Testament – NEVER the reverse.

The New Testament completes the Old Testament, and you go backwards from the completion to the beginning to interpret, for the Scriptures are complete in the New Testament revelation.

Now if we can demonstrate from the New Testament that there are really three Persons, and if we can demonstrate that the three Persons are all called God, and if we can demonstrate that there is only ONE God, then we are driven to only one possible conclusion:

Things equal to the same thing, are equal to each other, and the three Persons are the one God.

You don’t have to be a great logician. You don’t have to be a great theologian. You don’t have to go to college. You don’t have to even graduate from high school to think that one through.

Think about it for a moment.

If you can show that there are three Persons in the New Testament, and if you can show that these three Persons are called God (or Jehovah to accomodate the Witnesses), and if we can show there is only One God, then the three Persons ARE the one God. And the argument ends at that point.

If the New Testament says that there are three Persons, and if the New Testaments says that these three Persons are all called Jehovah, and if there is only one Jehovah, then the three Persons are the One God, and the doctrine of the Trinity is true.

Let us begin scientifically, inductively, simply to see whether or not it can be proved.

First of all: Is there a Person called the Father in the New Testament and is He called God?

[alanmolstad]

First of all: Is there a Person called the Father in the New Testament and is He called God?

A legitimate question to which we ought to have a legitimate answer.

2nd Peter Chapter 1 verse 17 – It should be marked in your Bibles, and I think it should be clearly indicated why you are marking it there – you are identifying someone.

2nd Peter Chapter 1 verse 17: “For He The Lord Jesus received from God the Father honour and glory, when there came such a voice to Him from the excellent glory, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.”

Now we have proven two specific things from this text:

One – There is a Person called the Father and

[TWO] – He is identified as God. Verse 17 “He received from God the Father.”

Identification – The Father is Jehovah. No possible way out. The Jehovah’s Witnesses will agree with you right down the line.

[alanmolstad]

Revelation 1 is a very clear example.

Verse 8: “I am Alpha and Omega, the Beginning and the Ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.”

Now Jehovah’s Witnesses admit in their own translation that this is Jehovah God, and they translate it this way: “I am Alpha and Omega, the Beginning and the Ending, says Jehovah God, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.”

They have established the premise.

Revelation 1:8 – Alpha and Omega IS Jehovah God.

Revelation Chapter 22 – The person speaking says “Behold, I come quickly!” Verse 7.

And as you go on reading Revelation 22 there’s a repe***ion – Verse 12 “Behold, I come quickly; my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.” Verse 13: “I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.”

I think that’s pretty clear. The Alpha and the Omega is speaking again. And the Alpha and the Omega is by Jehovah’s Witnesses own definition – Jehovah God.

So Revelation 22:13 can be cross-referenced with Revelation 1:8 and you have a perfect identification of Jehovah God in both places.

Now get to Verse 17 and 18. “When I saw Him, I fell at his feet as dead. And He laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the First and the Last.”

So Jesus Christ the son of Man identifies Himself as Alpha and Omega, identifies Himself as First and Last, and now He even goes further:

“…I am he that lives, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive forevermore.”

Literally the Greek reads “I am He that lives and BECAME dead and behold I live for all eternity. Amen. I have the keys of Hell and of Death.”

Now the identification is irrefutable. Christ calls Himself First and Last, and Jehovah’s Witnesses admit He’s Alpha and Omega.

It’s a terrible problem for them to solve, and they don’t solve it at all.

[alanmolstad]

Ananias, with Sapphira his wife, sold a possession, And kept back part of the price, his wife being (literally in cahoots with him. The word privy means in Old English she was actually working with him in the deal. She knew what was going on.) and they laid that part of it they intended to give at the apostles’ feet. But Peter said, Ananias, why has Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Spirit (Verse 3) and keep back part of the price of the land? While it remained, was it not your own? and after it was sold, was it not your own power? Why have you conceived this thing in your heart?”

Now underline the next sentence: “You have not lied unto men, but unto God.”

Now go back a verse: [Acts 5:3] “Peter said unto Ananias, ‘why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie”… to who? “the Holy Spirit.’”

Now who IS this Holy Spirit in verse 4? … You have not lied to men. You have lied to God.

The same man who identified God the Father identifies God the Holy Spirit. And if there’s only one Jehovah, then the three Persons are the One God, and the doctrine of the Trinity is true.

[alanmolstad]

or..........just listen to this -

[alanmolstad]

as for the so-called other "gods" ?

Here is a good answer to that-

https://www.gotquestions.org/no-other-gods.html

[alanmolstad]

as for what the Mormons are in to?

here you go-

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

You forgot John 1:1 I will start what that one if you like?

How do you collate John1:1 with the posted scriptures?

1 Corinthians 8:6---King James Version (KJV)
6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

1 Timothy 2:5--King James Version (KJV)
5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

Ephesians 4:4-6--King James Version (KJV)
4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;
5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

1 Peter 1:3--King James Version (KJV)
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

John 17:3---King James Version (KJV)
3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

The LDS collate it as God the Son--but not the "one God"--which was the God and Father of God the Son--as the above scriptures show.

[alanmolstad]

John 1:1

Within the nature of the one true God there are 3 persons.

The Father is God
The Son is God
The Spirit is God

Yet there are not 3 gods but One God.

The Word was with God.......I believe the Greek says, the word was toward the God
The Word was God.....I believe the Greek says What the God was, the Word was.

The Word became flesh......the God of John 1:1 was wrapped in flesh and born as a man....fully 100% God almighty, the only true God in the universe....and fully 100% human, the same as me and you.

This is why the Bible says there is but one mediator between God and man, the "man" Christ Jesus...for Jesus is fully 100% human!...yet never stopped being the one true God Almighty.

This is why the Bible can says "One God, the Father" for the Father is truly the God of the Son....for the Son is truly human as as such worshiped the father as his God.

(Had he not been able to do so he would not be like us, and thus if he is not truly like us then his resurrection if pointless to us)

[alanmolstad]

Now when we read that there is "One God, the Father" does this mean that Jersus cant be God?

I will go over the answer but first, here is a site for you people who want to make sure all i say is not just junk I make up...

https://www.ucg.org/bible-study-tool...d-jesus-christ

[alanmolstad]

“About eating food offered to idols, then, we know that ‘an idol is nothing in the world,’ and that ‘there is no God but one.’ For even if there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth—as there are many ‘gods’ and many ‘lords’—yet for us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things, and we for Him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and we through Him”


So does the fact that “for us there is one God, the Father,” mean that Jesus cannot also be God? Initially it might seem so. But consider a parallel question based on the same p***age: Does the fact that “for us there is … one Lord, Jesus Christ,” mean that the Father cannot also be Lord?

This is obviously not the case, for the Father is certainly Lord—meaning Master and Ruler. Jesus prayed, “I thank You, Father, Lord of heaven and earth” (Matthew 11:25). And Revelation 11:15 mentions the Kingdom “of our Lord and of His Christ.” Jesus is indeed Lord, but obviously the Father is Lord above Him. This does not contradict Paul’s statement. And neither do other verses that proclaim the deity of Christ.

Rather than excluding Jesus from being God, a careful reading of 1 Corinthians 8:4-6 should help us to see that He is included in the divine iden***y. Paul is briefly affirming the contrast between pagan polytheism (the belief in many gods) and true monotheism (the belief in just one God). But why doesn’t he limit his affirmation that “there is no God but one” to stating only that “there is one God, the Father”? Why does he even mention “one Lord, Jesus Christ,” in this context?

Surely it is because Jesus is an important part of what God is. As elsewhere, Paul shows here that while “all things”—the entire created realm, both physical and spiritual—is ultimately from God the Father, it was all actually made through Jesus Christ. And Jesus rules over it all as Lord under the Father.

[alanmolstad]

So if both Father and Son are God and both are Lord, why does Paul divide Them out as “one God, the Father” and “one Lord, Jesus Christ”? We are not explicitly told, but the cl***ification is used elsewhere in Scripture. In Psalms 110:1, Israel’s King David referred to an intermediary between God and himself as Lord. The verse begins: “The Lord [ Yhwh ] said to my Lord …” As the New Testament makes plain, Yhwh (the Eternal God) in this case designates the Father, who is speaking to the One who became Jesus Christ, David’s immediate Lord, ruling on the Father’s behalf.

We also have Jesus’ own prayer to the Father the night before His death, wherein He stated, “And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent” (John 17:3). Some regard this verse as likewise denying the divinity of Christ, but it ***uredly does not. Besides the fact that Jesus said this while His power was limited in human flesh, when only the Father could act throughout the universe as God (John 5:30; John 14:10), the obvious intent is that He was pointing to the Father as the true focus of our worship, with Himself as the Father’s representative serving as intermediary.

This latter fact is evidently what Paul had in mind as well. In declaring the Father as the one God, he was referring to exclusivity of position, not exclusivity of divine nature. Just as Christ Himself did, Paul was acknowledging the Father as the Supreme Being over all and the focus of our worship. While “all should honor the Son just as they honor the Father” (John 5:23), it should be evident that our honor of the Son is still relative to our honor of the Father. We honor the Son in this way because the Father has so ordained it. Thus, the Son is not the one God in the sense of the Supreme Being—and Paul therefore did not include Him in that designation.

[alanmolstad]

But this does not exclude the Son from being God in the sense of sharing the same level of existence with the Father and sharing rule with the Father over all—and of acting as God on the Father’s behalf throughout eternity, past and future. For the Son is in fact God in this very sense. Yet had Paul referred to Jesus as God in this particular context of denying polytheism and labeling the Father as the “one God,” it would likely have resulted in confusion for many. So he chose to use a different distinction, Lord —the same ***le Paul typically used for Jesus in his writings.

Designating Jesus as the “one Lord” stresses His role as the One who exercises God’s rule over creation—the point being that the Father does not do so directly but acts through Jesus Christ. This fact is a crucial aspect of defining God. And particularly for us, just as David recognized, Jesus is our immediate Lord and Master—the Father being ultimate Lord and Master. But there is no division in allegiance, for devotion to Christ is the way we are devoted to the Father. So again, the fact that the Father is Lord does not contradict Jesus being the “one Lord.” For their lordship is not divided. Rather, the Father rules through the Son.

This then, in stark contrast to the competing deities of pagan polytheism, is Paul’s brief explanation of true monotheism—God the Father, who is supreme, working through the Son, who perfectly carries out His will, these two being one in unity. And it is through Jesus that we worship and serve the Father. Thus, we should be able to see that Paul in 1 Corinthians 8 was not denying the deity of Christ but was, rather, affirming it through carefully chosen wording.

[alanmolstad]

and that is how you and I are to connect John 1;1 to all the verses you listed....

[DrDavidT]

yup there is no point in my being here

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

Now when we read that there is "One God, the Father" does this mean that Jersus cant be God?

No--Jesus Christ is God the Son.

But it does mean God the Son was not the "one God" of the Biblical NT:

1 Corinthians 8:6---King James Version (KJV)
6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

1 Timothy 2:5--King James Version (KJV)
5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

Ephesians 4:4-6--King James Version (KJV)
4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;
5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

1 Peter 1:3--King James Version (KJV)
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

John 17:3---King James Version (KJV)
3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

Care to address that concern?