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Thread: God's first creation

  1. #51
    Senior Member TrueBlue?'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by James Banta View Post
    And by the work of the Holy Spirit they came up with the right answer.. He is begotten not created..

    We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ,
    the only Son of God,
    eternally begotten of the Father,
    God from God, Light from Light,
    true God from true God,
    begotten, not made,
    of one Being with the Father. (Nicene Creed)


    Would you like to see wording is LDS scripture that was changed by Smith years after it was said that the translation was made by the gift and power of God, and not by any power of man? The Nicene Creed made no such claim. It was a way for illiterate men to memorize spiritually supported doctrines and have them with them always. After all no where in the Bible does it teach that Jesus was created. It does however say that He was begotten. IHS jim
    Joseph Smith has nothing to do with my point. The information and ideas i am presenting come from Christian sources outside of the LDS.

    Create, Begotten, are the same to me, but if it makes you feel better we can use Begotten.
    be·get
    be·got·ten
    1.
    (especially of a male parent) to procreate or generate (offspring).
    2.
    to cause; produce as an effect: a belief that power begets power.
    http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/begotten

    1. spawn, sire, breed, father. 2. occasion, engender, effect, generate
    Explain to me what it means to you that Christ was "begotten". Was there a difference in Christ before He was begotten opposed to after having been begotten?

    I think we both feel comfortable with definition #2.

  2. #52
    Senior Member MacG's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pa Pa View Post
    Yes...this a interesting topic indeed. We say he is the "Son of God"; one says we do not the other says we believe God the Father has sex with Mary. Quite a racket you guys have built. See Mosiah 5: 7...if the fact the whole book will make it clear and could pull many out of darkness.
    'Yes" is an interesting answer that you gave as to the CJCLDS belie that the definition of the Holy Spirit being a person...

    Having read Mosiah 5:7 I see that you refer to OUR adoption as Sons OF God to intimate that Jesus was also adopted whereas God the Son (preincarnate) we speak of had no need for adoption as He considered it not robbery to be equal with God prior to his incarnation, biblically speaking of course. This as I understand it, is not TCJCLDS doctrine. Am I mistaken?
    "Said I'm not what I ought to be, but I'm better, better than I used to be, I'm gettin better all the time" - Blind Boys of Alabama Ephesians 4:22-24 NASB ..."that, in reference to your former manner of life, you lay aside the old self, which is being corrupted in accordance with the lusts of deceit, and that you be renewed in the spirit of your mind, and put on the new self, which in the likeness of God has been created in righteousness and holiness of the truth"

  3. #53
    James Banta
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    Quote Originally Posted by TrueBlue? View Post
    Joseph Smith has nothing to do with my point. The information and ideas i am presenting come from Christian sources outside of the LDS.

    Create, Begotten, are the same to me, but if it makes you feel better we can use Begotten.


    Explain to me what it means to you that Christ was "begotten". Was there a difference in Christ before He was begotten opposed to after having been begotten?

    I think we both feel comfortable with definition #2.
    I have no problem with any of then.. No where does it indicate that Jesus was ever made, the Creed stands undiminished. After it says Jesus was begotten just never made. All you have done it to confirm what the scripture and the creed teach.. IHS jim

  4. #54
    Senior Member TrueBlue?'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by James Banta View Post
    I have no problem with any of then.. No where does it indicate that Jesus was ever made, the Creed stands undiminished. After it says Jesus was begotten just never made. All you have done it to confirm what the scripture and the creed teach.. IHS jim
    I was hoping you could answer the question according to the definition given.

    Explain to me what it means to you that Christ was "begotten". Was there a difference in Christ before He was begotten opposed to after having been begotten?

  5. #55
    Billyray
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    Quote Originally Posted by TrueBlue? View Post
    Explain to me what it means to you that Christ was "begotten". Was there a difference in Christ before He was begotten opposed to after having been begotten?
    Jesus has been eternally God as God the Son.

  6. #56
    James Banta
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    I said I had no problem with the definition. There is no doubt that Jesus took on flesh, and that by the Holy Spirit (Matthew 1:18).. Just what isn't answered about your question? Should I instead cancel all that Jesus taught about who the Father is? That He is Spirit (John 4:24). That a Spirit has not body of flesh and bone (Luke 24:39). That the Holy Spirit though the apostle Paul taught that the Father is invisible and only seen in the Person of the Son, Jesus (Colossians 1:15). Again just how was my answer not a full and complete answer in the light of scripture? How is being Begotten by a god with a body as tangible as man even close to conforming to scripture. How is it Biblical to teach that the Father begot Jesus the same as any mortal father begets their children? Mormonism likes to stand outside scripture and take potshots at those of us that stand inside it's authority.. IHS jim
    Last edited by James Banta; 03-09-2013 at 09:34 AM.

  7. #57
    Senior Member TrueBlue?'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by James Banta View Post
    I said I had no problem with the definition. There is no doubt that Jesus took on flesh, and that by the Holy Spirit (Matthew 1:18).. Just what isn't answered about your question? Should I instead cancel all that Jesus taught about who the Father is? That He is Spirit (John 4:24). That a Spirit has not body of flesh and bone (Luke 24:39). That the Holy Spirit though the apostle Paul taught that the Father is invisible and only seen in the Person of the Son, Jesus (Colossians 1:15). Again just how was my answer not a full and complete answer in the light of scripture? How is being Begotten by a god with a body as tangible as man even close to conforming to scripture. How is it Biblical to teach that the Father begot Jesus the same as any mortal father begets their children? Mormonism likes to stand outside scripture and take potshots at those of us that stand inside it's authority.. IHS jim
    You do realize I was speaking of Prov. 8:22-30. This is about Christ being begotten at all. Regardless about how it was done. As you can read I was speaking of the above verses not Christ coming to earth. Now Christ being the first of God the Father's works, begotten of the Father. Now what was the state of Christ before He was begotten of the Father?

  8. #58
    Senior Member TrueBlue?'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Billyray View Post
    Jesus has been eternally God as God the Son.
    So if there was no change, nothing different, then why beget Him? If nothing changed then it seems kind of an un-necessary act you think?

    You do realize that when ancient Christians such as those at Nicene who formed the Nicene Creed, did believe that Christ was begotten of the Father as stated in Prov. 8:22-30.

  9. #59
    Senior Member MacG's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TrueBlue? View Post
    You do realize I was speaking of Prov. 8:22-30. This is about Christ being begotten at all. Regardless about how it was done. As you can read I was speaking of the above verses not Christ coming to earth. Now Christ being the first of God the Father's works, begotten of the Father. Now what was the state of Christ before He was begotten of the Father?
    I did not realize pre-incarnate Jesus was a girl.
    "Said I'm not what I ought to be, but I'm better, better than I used to be, I'm gettin better all the time" - Blind Boys of Alabama Ephesians 4:22-24 NASB ..."that, in reference to your former manner of life, you lay aside the old self, which is being corrupted in accordance with the lusts of deceit, and that you be renewed in the spirit of your mind, and put on the new self, which in the likeness of God has been created in righteousness and holiness of the truth"

  10. #60
    Super Moderator alanmolstad's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fig-bearing Thistle View Post
    I am curious as to what Evangelicals believe was God's first creation, ?
    .

    "In the beginning" .....(before anything else, at the very start of,)
    "God created the heavens and the earth"........(the answer as to what was made first)
    From the Forum RULES : "As you know, the Walter Martin website takes the position that Mormon theology is not Christian theology. Use of the term "LDS Christian" is inaccurate and misleading, and as such is not acceptable on this board."

  11. #61
    Super Moderator alanmolstad's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TrueBlue? View Post
    So who was the one who discovered that every christian apologist and scholar for the first several centuries of Christian history were wrong. Even in the debates at Nicaea no one questioned whether or not Christ was the wisdom being spoken of in Prov. 8:22 but whether He was created or begotten.
    I dont know much about that kind of stuff,

    But I do know the Bible,and I know that when you read proverbs 8 you find that its talking about a female.....


    Thus, its easy to see its not talking about Christ...(Christ is male)

  12. #62
    Super Moderator alanmolstad's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fig-bearing Thistle View Post
    I am curious as to what Evangelicals believe was God's first creation,
    The answer is "the heavens"

  13. #63
    Super Moderator alanmolstad's Avatar
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    as for the question, "What is God's greatest creation as found in the Bible?...


    The answer is, "His final one......woman."

  14. #64
    Super Moderator alanmolstad's Avatar
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    so to review:

    The first thing the Bible lists created by God is "The heavens"

    The last thing, (and therefore likely the greatest thing listed) is, "the woman"
    From the Forum RULES : "As you know, the Walter Martin website takes the position that Mormon theology is not Christian theology. Use of the term "LDS Christian" is inaccurate and misleading, and as such is not acceptable on this board."

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