The Hogan Free Thread

[DrDavidT]

I know the rules and know this is a public forum so I am doing this tongue in cheek. It would be nice if Hogan stopped derailing my threads with his own agenda.

This thread is for dberrie and i and a few others who can address the issues and because I am tired of trying to search for all the threads I have made comments in

To start off I am going back to the subject of another thread that got derailed by someone insensitive person who has blinders on.

dberrie & other mormons only:

Where is the physical evidence supporting mormon claims of history, golden plates, moroni the angel, that God the father appeared to J. Smith, and the ancient religion Smith was to restore? WE will start with those topics to begin with and I will add more as time goes on. Please use archaeological, actual scientific evidence and even your religious writings supported by extra mormon documentation to frame your answers.

[alanmolstad]

aiming a topic ***le at a member of this message forum is against the listed rules...

"Additional Rules: Please do not refer to a member by any name other than his or her username. Mocking someone's ideas or beliefs is baiting. Pejorative terms like "liar" or "lying" in reference to other members will be considered personal attacks.

Historical individuals may be categorized as liars as long as primary source citations are used. All quotations must include the complete citation. This is a copyright issue. Do not start threads aimed at a specific board member. Your signature should not include any insulting comments made either by you or another board member, and do not carry over arguments from other boards to the WM Board.


http://www.waltermartin.com/forums/s...-are-the-rules

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by DrDavidT

I know the rules and know this is a public forum so I am doing this tongue in cheek. It would be nice if Hogan stopped derailing my threads with his own agenda.

This thread is for dberrie and i and a few others who can address the issues and because I am tired of trying to search for all the threads I have made comments in

To start off I am going back to the subject of another thread that got derailed by someone insensitive person who has blinders on.

dberrie & other mormons only:

Where is the physical evidence supporting mormon claims of history, golden plates, moroni the angel, ...

It's the same witness God has given us in the Biblical NT--a written record--with witnesses:

Testimony of Three Witnesses

Be it known unto all nations, kindreds, tongues, and people, unto whom this work shall come: That we, through the grace of God the Father, and our Lord Jesus Christ, have seen the plates which contain this record, which is a record of the people of Nephi, and also of the Lamanites, their brethren, and also of the people of Jared, who came from the tower of which hath been spoken. And we also know that they have been translated by the gift and power of God, for his voice hath declared it unto us; wherefore we know of a surety that the work is true. And we also testify that we have seen the engravings which are upon the plates; and they have been shown unto us by the power of God, and not of man. And we declare with words of soberness, that an angel of God came down from heaven, and he brought and laid before our eyes, that we beheld and saw the plates, and the engravings thereon; and we know that it is by the grace of God the Father, and our Lord Jesus Christ, that we beheld and bear record that these things are true. And it is marvelous in our eyes. Nevertheless, the voice of the Lord commanded us that we should bear record of it; wherefore, to be obedient unto the commandments of God, we bear testimony of these things. And we know that if we are faithful in Christ, we shall rid our garments of the blood of all men, and be found spotless before the judgment-seat of Christ, and shall dwell with him eternally in the heavens. And the honor be to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Ghost, which is one God. Amen.

Oliver Cowdery
David Whitmer
Martin Harris

Testimony of Eight Witnesses

Be it known unto all nations, kindreds, tongues, and people, unto whom this work shall come: That Joseph Smith, Jun., the translator of this work, has shown unto us the plates of which hath been spoken, which have the appearance of gold; and as many of the leaves as the said Smith has translated we did handle with our hands; and we also saw the engravings thereon, all of which has the appearance of ancient work, and of curious workmanship. And this we bear record with words of soberness, that the said Smith has shown unto us, for we have seen and hefted, and know of a surety that the said Smith has got the plates of which we have spoken. And we give our names unto the world, to witness unto the world that which we have seen. And we lie not, God bearing witness of it.

Christian Whitmer
Jacob Whitmer
Peter Whitmer, Jun.
John Whitmer
Hiram Page
Joseph Smith, Sen.
Hyrum Smith
Samuel H. Smith


David--could you show us what heavenly witness supports your denomination?

[DrDavidT]

again, the same garbage. learn how to discuss and present material that supports your point of view

Alan-- not aimed at him, just done tongue in cheek

[DrDavidT]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

aiming a topic ***le at a member of this message forum is against the listed rules...

"Additional Rules: Please do not refer to a member by any name other than his or her username. Mocking someone's ideas or beliefs is baiting. Pejorative terms like "liar" or "lying" in reference to other members will be considered personal attacks.

Historical individuals may be categorized as liars as long as primary source citations are used. All quotations must include the complete citation. This is a copyright issue. Do not start threads aimed at a specific board member. Your signature should not include any insulting comments made either by you or another board member, and do not carry over arguments from other boards to the WM Board.


http://www.waltermartin.com/forums/s...-are-the-rules

feel free to take hogan's name out of the ***le. looks like I can't

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by DrDavidT

again, the same garbage. learn how to discuss and present material that supports your point of view

What is there about the testimony of the witnesses which you don't believe supports my point of view?

Testimony of Three Witnesses

Be it known unto all nations, kindreds, tongues, and people, unto whom this work shall come: That we, through the grace of God the Father, and our Lord Jesus Christ, have seen the plates which contain this record, which is a record of the people of Nephi, and also of the Lamanites, their brethren, and also of the people of Jared, who came from the tower of which hath been spoken. And we also know that they have been translated by the gift and power of God, for his voice hath declared it unto us; wherefore we know of a surety that the work is true. And we also testify that we have seen the engravings which are upon the plates; and they have been shown unto us by the power of God, and not of man. And we declare with words of soberness, that an angel of God came down from heaven, and he brought and laid before our eyes, that we beheld and saw the plates, and the engravings thereon; and we know that it is by the grace of God the Father, and our Lord Jesus Christ, that we beheld and bear record that these things are true. And it is marvelous in our eyes. Nevertheless, the voice of the Lord commanded us that we should bear record of it; wherefore, to be obedient unto the commandments of God, we bear testimony of these things. And we know that if we are faithful in Christ, we shall rid our garments of the blood of all men, and be found spotless before the judgment-seat of Christ, and shall dwell with him eternally in the heavens. And the honor be to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Ghost, which is one God. Amen.

Oliver Cowdery
David Whitmer
Martin Harris

Testimony of Eight Witnesses

Be it known unto all nations, kindreds, tongues, and people, unto whom this work shall come: That Joseph Smith, Jun., the translator of this work, has shown unto us the plates of which hath been spoken, which have the appearance of gold; and as many of the leaves as the said Smith has translated we did handle with our hands; and we also saw the engravings thereon, all of which has the appearance of ancient work, and of curious workmanship. And this we bear record with words of soberness, that the said Smith has shown unto us, for we have seen and hefted, and know of a surety that the said Smith has got the plates of which we have spoken. And we give our names unto the world, to witness unto the world that which we have seen. And we lie not, God bearing witness of it.

Christian Whitmer
Jacob Whitmer
Peter Whitmer, Jun.
John Whitmer
Hiram Page
Joseph Smith, Sen.
Hyrum Smith
Samuel H. Smith

[alanmolstad]

try to understand that there is a very good reason for the rule against naming a guest in the ***le of a topic, it helps to give people the freedom to respond to topics or not...
It also helps keep things from getting too personal between guests

we want this place to be always family-friendly...where all guests are seen as equally able to decide for themselves if they want to post or not....and that all guests can, and should, decide for themselves if they want to post and feel free not to post or go ahead and post as they feel...

No one should feel obligated to post, or feel left out of a topic.

Everyone should see that all are welcome here, and feel that if they stay within the rules they can have an equal chance to be part of every conversation.

[DrDavidT]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

try to understand that there is a very good reason for the rule against naming a guest in the ***le of a topic, it helps to give people the freedom to respond to topics or not...
It also helps keep things from getting too personal between guests

we want this place to be always family-friendly...where all guests are seen as equally able to decide for themselves if they want to post or not....and that all guests can, and should, decide for themselves if they want to post and feel free not to post or go ahead and post as they feel...

No one should feel obligated to post, or feel left out of a topic.

Everyone should see that all are welcome here, and feel that if they stay within the rules they can have an equal chance to be part of every conversation.

i am not worried but the other poster is over stepping and trampling my work, a warning to watch his disrespect would be in order

[DrDavidT]

i am leaving because of hogan. his disrespect and lack of anything decent has made me realize that I have better things to do with my time than post here

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by DrDavidT

i am leaving because of hogan. his disrespect and lack of anything decent has made me realize that I have better things to do with my time than post here

Hi David:

You leave whenever you want--but, IMO--comments such as the one above adds nothing to the discussion threads, and seems to permeate most of your posts. Hogan seems honest in most of his replies, and I have enjoyed my exchange with him.

My hope is we can engage more scriptures--and less straw man retorts.

Acts 3:21---King James Version (KJV)
21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of res***ution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.

[alanmolstad]

Im not really sure what all that was about?

but from my point of view all I see is a message board, comprised of well-mannered members, posting their views and debating ideas in a calm, mature manner, a credit to their upbringing Im sure, and a good reflection on their personalities and the different religions they each promote.