My Hearts Cry

[Charity]

Dearly Beloved,

LDS believe those of us former LDS that post here at WM are going to Outer Darkness. We've been lead away by the devil for not having a testimony of all the covenants and doctrines of Mormonism.

Evangelicals believe LDS have not received the Jesus Christ of the Bible and are unredeemed and thus are going to hell.

Is this the gist of it?

Do LDS tell us we're going to Outer Darkness and are concerned for us. Not that I've experienced.
Do evangelicals tell the LDS they're in danger of hell fire? Yes.

Do we speak the truth in love? Can the truth be accepted in any other way?

People are going to hell.

We are all beloved of God and He desires that none of us perish. How can we love those that are perishing?

This is not a rebuke. It's my hearts cry. I'm thinking outloud to myself and wonder what you think?

Why are you here at WM? Is this a forum where we defend the truth witout caring? Do we protect our hearts at all cost?

Sincerely in Grace,
Charity

[Vlad III]

Originally Posted by Charity

LDS believe those of us former LDS that post here at WM are going to Outer Darkness. We've been lead away by the devil for not having a testimony of all the covenants and doctrines of Mormonism.

That's an incorrect statement. LDS DO NOT believe that someone who simply rejects the restored gospel after having received it are going to Outer Darkness. You might consider reading up on LDS beliefs again before making false statements like this.

Evangelicals believe LDS have not received the Jesus Christ of the Bible and are unredeemed and thus are going to hell.

This seems accurate.

Do LDS tell us we're going to Outer Darkness and are concerned for us. Not that I've experienced.

Good! Becasue as i said, that isn't LDS teaching. To tell you you are going to Outer darkness 1) would be disingenuious and 2) would make us guilty of making unrightous judgements.

LDS do not believe in a Heaven/ hell; P***/ Fail system of judgement and therefore we do not claim, as your Evangelical friends do, that you must accept OUR beliefset to go to Heaven or else you will go to Hell.

Do evangelicals tell the LDS they're in danger of hell fire? Yes.

Okay.

People are going to hell.

True.

We are all beloved of God and He desires that none of us perish. How can we love those that are perishing?

You can share what you believe. And then allow that person to either accept or reject your message.

Why are you here at WM? Is this a forum where we defend the truth witout caring? Do we protect our hearts at all cost?

For me, I am here to defend my beliefs from the constant barrage of attacks and twisted ideas that people who hate the Mormon church promulgate here.

I'm not here to seek potential converts. Those here that post regularly are just as convinced that Mormonism is wrong as I am convinced that it is right. So I don't expect anyone to change their opinion, just as I hope they don't expect me to change mine.

And I also use this forum as a means of pointing out how, for some, tearing down Mormonism is higher on the list of 'To-do's' than building up the kingdom of God.....and that speaks volumes to me about the kind of 'Christianity' that certain attackers of Mormonism are trying to peddle here...in that they are more concerned with Mormonism and why it is so bad in their eyes than they are with their Christianity and why it is so good.

[James Banta]

Originally Posted by Vlad III

That's an incorrect statement. LDS DO NOT believe that someone who simply rejects the restored gospel after having received it are going to Outer Darkness. You might consider reading up on LDS beliefs again before making false statements like this.



This seems accurate.



Good! Becasue as i said, that isn't LDS teaching. To tell you you are going to Outer darkness 1) would be disingenuious and 2) would make us guilty of making unrightous judgements.

LDS do not believe in a Heaven/ hell; P***/ Fail system of judgement and therefore we do not claim, as your Evangelical friends do, that you must accept OUR beliefset to go to Heaven or else you will go to Hell.



Okay.



True.



You can share what you believe. And then allow that person to either accept or reject your message.



For me, I am here to defend my beliefs from the constant barrage of attacks and twisted ideas that people who hate the Mormon church promulgate here.

I'm not here to seek potential converts. Those here that post regularly are just as convinced that Mormonism is wrong as I am convinced that it is right. So I don't expect anyone to change their opinion, just as I hope they don't expect me to change mine.

And I also use this forum as a means of pointing out how, for some, tearing down Mormonism is higher on the list of 'To-do's' than building up the kingdom of God.....and that speaks volumes to me about the kind of 'Christianity' that certain attackers of Mormonism are trying to peddle here...in that they are more concerned with Mormonism and why it is so bad in their eyes than they are with their Christianity and why it is so good.

Jesus spent a lot more time and effort showing mankind the way to God and very little telling people they are on the wrong tract.. So let me take that example: You must be born again..NOT BAPTIZED, but have a life changing moment that connects a person to God, a rebirth. A person must turn away from the father of this world that they have always known and followed and turn to Jesus and except His works on their behalf and His Lordship over their life as their Father.. A person can't believe some idol of stone or of invention from the mind of a man can be that Lord. It MUST BE the Lord revealed in the word of God.. Anything but that LORD is not God but a idol. Christian are here to show you the differences between mormonism idols and the Bibles God.. IHS jim

[Charity]

Dear VladdIII

I am going on what former LDS Prophets and leaders have quoted. What's a person to believe if doctrines change? Thats why I love the Bible. It doesn't change.

Hell will have an end. ... After their resurrection, the great majority of those who have suffered in hell will p*** into the telestial kingdom; the balance, cursed as sons of perdition, will be consigned to partake of endless wo with the devil and his angels. Speaking of the telestial kingdom the Lord says: "These are they who are thrust down to hell. These are they who shall not be redeemed from the devil until the last resurrection, until the Lord, even Christ the Lamb, shall have finished his work. These are they who are cast down to hell and suffer the wrath of Almighty God, until the fulness of times." (D. & C. 76:84-85, 106.) As to the sons of perdition, the revelation says that after their resurrection "they shall return again to their own place" (D. & C. 88:32, 102), that is, they shall go back to dwell in the lake of fire with Perdition and his other sons. Thus those in hell "are the rest of the dead; and they live not again until the thousand years are ended, neither again, until the end of the earth." (D. & C. 88:101.) ... Since those going to a telestial kingdom travel to their destination through the depths of hell and as a result of obedience to telestial law, it follows that all those who live a telestial law will go to hell. Included among these are the carnal, sensual, and devilish -- those who live after the manner of the world. Among them are the sorcerers, adulterers, *****mongers (D. & C. 76:103), ... Such also is the fate of liars (2 Ne. 9:34), of "all those who preach false doctrines" (2 Ne. 28:15), of those who believe the ****able doctrine of infant baptism (Moro. 8:14, 21), ... "The sectarian world are going to hell by hundreds, by thousands and by millions," the Prophet said. (History of the Church, vol. 5, p. 554.) ... Thus, for those who are heirs of some salvation, which includes all except the sons of perdition (D. & C. 73:44), hell has an end, but for those who have wholly given themselves over to satanic purposes there is no redemption from the consuming fires and torment of conscience. They go on forever in the hell that is prepared for them.

I studied LDS doctrines and covenants and other scriptures said to come from Prophets of God.

You are here to defend. Why? Why if not to help others see the truth in love. I don't see this. Why take the time?. You could be sharing your gospel on those that will listen to you.

I do share what's good about Christianty. There is no end to the goodness of God. When I point out discrepencies it's not to tear a person down. God said that if He be lifted up He will draw all men unto Him. If His truth is spoken in love it will accomplish His purpose. It will either draw men unto Him or away from Him. If I become sounding br*** or clanging cymbals and not have love I am nothing.

Sincerely,
Charity

[theway]

Originally Posted by Charity

Dear VladdIII

I am going on what former LDS Prophets and leaders have quoted. What's a person to believe if doctrines change? Thats why I love the Bible. It doesn't change.

Hell will have an end. ... After their resurrection, the great majority of those who have suffered in hell will p*** into the telestial kingdom; the balance, cursed as sons of perdition, will be consigned to partake of endless wo with the devil and his angels. Speaking of the telestial kingdom the Lord says: "These are they who are thrust down to hell. These are they who shall not be redeemed from the devil until the last resurrection, until the Lord, even Christ the Lamb, shall have finished his work. These are they who are cast down to hell and suffer the wrath of Almighty God, until the fulness of times." (D. & C. 76:84-85, 106.) As to the sons of perdition, the revelation says that after their resurrection "they shall return again to their own place" (D. & C. 88:32, 102), that is, they shall go back to dwell in the lake of fire with Perdition and his other sons. Thus those in hell "are the rest of the dead; and they live not again until the thousand years are ended, neither again, until the end of the earth." (D. & C. 88:101.) ... Since those going to a telestial kingdom travel to their destination through the depths of hell and as a result of obedience to telestial law, it follows that all those who live a telestial law will go to hell. Included among these are the carnal, sensual, and devilish -- those who live after the manner of the world. Among them are the sorcerers, adulterers, *****mongers (D. & C. 76:103), ... Such also is the fate of liars (2 Ne. 9:34), of "all those who preach false doctrines" (2 Ne. 28:15), of those who believe the ****able doctrine of infant baptism (Moro. 8:14, 21), ... "The sectarian world are going to hell by hundreds, by thousands and by millions," the Prophet said. (History of the Church, vol. 5, p. 554.) ... Thus, for those who are heirs of some salvation, which includes all except the sons of perdition (D. & C. 73:44), hell has an end, but for those who have wholly given themselves over to satanic purposes there is no redemption from the consuming fires and torment of conscience. They go on forever in the hell that is prepared for them.

I studied LDS doctrines and covenants and other scriptures said to come from Prophets of God.

You are here to defend. Why? Why if not to help others see the truth in love. I don't see this. Why take the time?. You could be sharing your gospel on those that will listen to you.

I do share what's good about Christianty. There is no end to the goodness of God. When I point out discrepencies it's not to tear a person down. God said that if He be lifted up He will draw all men unto Him. If His truth is spoken in love it will accomplish His purpose. It will either draw men unto Him or away from Him. If I become sounding br*** or clanging cymbals and not have love I am nothing.

Sincerely,
Charity

All this shows is how little you knew/know. The very fact that you're here preaching of Christ, means you are not a Son of Perdition going to outer darkness. What's sad is you may have rejected the LDS church, based on your understanding or by the understanding of critics.

[Novato]

Originally Posted by Charity

Dearly Beloved,

LDS believe those of us former LDS that post here at WM are going to Outer Darkness. We've been lead away by the devil for not having a testimony of all the covenants and doctrines of Mormonism.

Evangelicals believe LDS have not received the Jesus Christ of the Bible and are unredeemed and thus are going to hell.

Is this the gist of it?

Do LDS tell us we're going to Outer Darkness and are concerned for us. Not that I've experienced.
Do evangelicals tell the LDS they're in danger of hell fire? Yes.

Do we speak the truth in love? Can the truth be accepted in any other way?

People are going to hell.

We are all beloved of God and He desires that none of us perish. How can we love those that are perishing?

This is not a rebuke. It's my hearts cry. I'm thinking outloud to myself and wonder what you think?

Why are you here at WM? Is this a forum where we defend the truth witout caring? Do we protect our hearts at all cost?

Sincerely in Grace,
Charity

Hi Charity:

I think your lack of understanding of the Lord’s Gospel shows through “big time” here. Charity wrote:

LDS believe those of us former LDS that post here at WM are going to Outer Darkness. We've been lead away by the devil for not having a testimony of all the covenants and doctrines of Mormonism.

I have not the slightest idea where you got this idea. One of the fundamental tenets of LDS belief is that almost all of Eternal Fathers children will inherit a degree of Glory.

40 And this is the gospel, the glad tidings, which the voice out of the heavens bore record unto us—
41 That he came into the world, even Jesus, to be crucified for the world, and to bear the sins of the world, and to sanctify the world, and to cleanse it from all unrighteousness;
42 That through him all might be saved whom the Father had put into his power and made by him;
43 Who glorifies the Father, and saves all the works of his hands, except those sons of perdition who deny the Son after the Father has revealed him.
44 Wherefore, he saves all except them—they shall go away into everlasting punishment, which is endless punishment, which is eternal punishment, to reign with the devil and his angels in eternity, where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched, which is their torment.
Doctrine and Covenants | Section 76:40 - 44

So only the “sons of perdition” so who are they?

31 Thus saith the Lord concerning all those who know my power, and have been made partakers thereof, and suffered themselves through the power of the devil to be overcome, and to deny the truth and defy my power—
32 They are they who are the sons of perdition, of whom I say that it had been better for them never to have been born;
Doctrine and Covenants | Section 76:31 - 32

You further wrote in another post, regarding this nonsense. Charity wrote:

I am going on what former LDS Prophets and leaders have quoted. What's a person to believe if doctrines change? Thats why I love the Bible. It doesn't change.

Can you please provide evidential data to support this complete untruth?

You then quoted the very scriptures that prove your OP in error. Charity hell is not “outer darkness". For goodness sake at least try to understand that which you blindly attack.

And then comes the “big Evangelical deception”. Charity wrote:

We are all beloved of God and He desires that none of us perish. How can we love those that are perishing?

Charity, out of the countless billions that have lived upon the earth, what %age do you think will be “saved” in the Evangelical concept of the Kingdom of God?

Novato

[Father_JD]

Thanks for demonstrating Mormon cognitive dissonance in which you can believe two mutually-exclusive truth claims at the same time:

LDS do not believe in a Heaven/ hell;

People are going to hell.

True.

[Vlad III]

Originally Posted by Father_JD

Thanks for demonstrating Mormon cognitive dissonance in which you can believe two mutually-exclusive truth claims at the same time:




People are going to hell.

and thank YOU for 'demonstrating' your total ignorance of LDS beliefs.

Any honest reader (which excludes you, since you are apparently reading to find fault) can see that those are not two mutually exclusive things.

I said, "LDS do not believe in a Heaven/Hell; P***/Fail judgement." No, LDS believe in a gradation of Heaven; levels of Heaven and rewards. Not just the 2 places. It isn't either/or. That was the point.

Hell is a place reserved for the most wicked and Sons of Perdition. There will be people that go there. However, my response was that, unlike Evangelical theology, not all 'bad' people go to Hell. There are other rewards and degrees of Heaven.

Let me make it easier for Father JD to comprehend, as I see he is looking for fault here.

Evangelical Christians believe there are 2 options: Heaven and Hell

LDS believe there are at least 4 options: Celestial Kingdom (Heaven), Terrestial Kingdom (Heaven), Telestial Kingdom (Heaven), Outer Darkness (Hell).

So YES....some people will end up in Hell.
No, it isn't cognative dissonance to believe that and also maintain that we do not believe in a Heaven/Hell; P***/Fail system of judgement.

Yes, it is easy to see you finding fault and picking a fight. Is this what I can expect in MY lonely golden years?

[Bat-Man]

Originally Posted by Charity

Dearly Beloved,

LDS believe those of us former LDS that post here at WM are going to Outer Darkness.

No, we don't believe that, or at least I don't.

I do believe you're not going to end up in the Celestial region of the kingdom of heaven because you're not living up to all of the covenants you made with our Father in heaven, but it's still possible for you to end up in the Terrestrial region of the kingdom of heaven and that may be the region of heaven that you are best suited for, now.

We've been lead away by the devil for not having a testimony of all the covenants and doctrines of Mormonism.

Well, either by the devil, directly, or from men who have accepted what the devil has told them is true.

Read up on D&C 76 and see which group you seem to fit in with the best.

Evangelicals believe LDS have not received the Jesus Christ of the Bible and are unredeemed and thus are going to hell.

Yes, and Evangelicals are wrong for believing that, in my perspective.

Is this the gist of it?

Yes, except for the part about Outer Darkness being your only option other than the Celestial region of the kingdom of heaven.

Do LDS tell us we're going to Outer Darkness and are concerned for us. Not that I've experienced.

Listen closely, Charity.

I believe the odds of you going to Outer Darkness are very remote, and that it is very likely that you will end up in the Terrestrial region of the kingdom of heaven, and while I would prefer that you go to the Celestial region of the kingdom of heaven, along with me, you can go wherever you want to go, even to Hell, if you want to, because our Lord will help you go to wherever you really want to go.

Do evangelicals tell the LDS they're in danger of hell fire? Yes.

We're all in danger of Hell fire, Charity. That possibility is open to each one of us, including all Evangelicals.

Do we speak the truth in love?

Sometimes yes, and sometimes no.

Telling people they are dishonest when they are telling you what they honestly believe is not nice, nor is it a sign of love, and there are even worse things than that done by some people of the Evangelical movement.

Can the truth be accepted in any other way?

Love is the only way in which truth can be accepted.

If you don't have the love of God inside of you, you're not going to accept the word of God.

People are going to hell.

Yes, and most LDS are going to the Celestial region of the kingdom of heaven... whether you believe that or not.

We are all beloved of God and He desires that none of us perish. How can we love those that are perishing?

We can love those that are perishing by trying to help them to both know and do whatever it takes to be saved.

From there, it's up to them to choose to do whatever it takes to be saved, just as it is up to each one of us to choose to do whatever it takes to be saved.

This is not a rebuke. It's my hearts cry. I'm thinking outloud to myself and wonder what you think?

I think you're right about some things, and wrong about some other things, and I suggest you go directly to God to find out what he wants you to do to be saved.

Why are you here at WM?

I'm here to correctly represent Mormonism, amidst people who seem intent on misrepresenting Mormonism, by sharing what I know and believe concerning Mormonism and why I believe what I believe concerning Mormonism, and during the whole process I am trying to point people to God as the one who can tell them what is really the truth inherent in Mormonism.

Is this a forum where we defend the truth without caring?

I care, but I can only do so much to help other people, which is why I direct people directly to God as the one who can help them to help themselves.

Do we protect our hearts at all cost?

I give my whole heart, and soul, and strength and spirit to try to help other people as I show my love to God, Charity.

There is nothing I have that I am holding back from God, or from my service to God as I try to help other people.

... and yet, even that, even all of me, is not enough to help people in the way they really need to be helped.

God is the one we should be pointing to, rather than our doctrines or even our faith that we have from God.

... and by "God", in this instance, I am referring to our Father in heaven, and His Son Jesus Christ, and the Holy Spirit... the BIG 3.

[Father_JD]

Originally Posted by Vlad III

and thank YOU for 'demonstrating' your total ignorance of LDS beliefs.

Any honest reader (which excludes you, since you are apparently reading to find fault) can see that those are not two mutually exclusive things.

I said, "LDS do not believe in a Heaven/Hell; P***/Fail judgement." No, LDS believe in a gradation of Heaven; levels of Heaven and rewards. Not just the 2 places. It isn't either/or. That was the point.

Hell is a place reserved for the most wicked and Sons of Perdition. There will be people that go there. However, my response was that, unlike Evangelical theology, not all 'bad' people go to Hell. There are other rewards and degrees of Heaven.

Let me make it easier for Father JD to comprehend, as I see he is looking for fault here.

Evangelical Christians believe there are 2 options: Heaven and Hell

LDS believe there are at least 4 options: Celestial Kingdom (Heaven), Terrestial Kingdom (Heaven), Telestial Kingdom (Heaven), Outer Darkness (Hell).

So YES....some people will end up in Hell.
No, it isn't cognative dissonance to believe that and also maintain that we do not believe in a Heaven/Hell; P***/Fail system of judgement.

Yes, it is easy to see you finding fault and picking a fight. Is this what I can expect in MY lonely golden years?

You just wrote, "They're not an either or", i.e. Heaven or hell...and then you go on to write that yes, people will go to hell.

You just can't see your own contradiction just like you can't see the Mormon contradiction of claiming salvation is a GIFT, and then bring back in works into the mix which means it's NOT a gift of all, but of MERIT.

[Vlad III]

Originally Posted by Father_JD

You just wrote, "They're not an either or", i.e. Heaven or hell...and then you go on to write that yes, people will go to hell.

You just can't see your own contradiction just like you can't see the Mormon contradiction of claiming salvation is a GIFT, and then bring back in works into the mix which means it's NOT a gift of all, but of MERIT.

Exactly....since apparently you STILL cannot understand, let me help you out some more.

Evangelical belief = Option #1, Option #2

that's it.

LDS belief = Option #1, Option #2, Option #3, Option #4

If Hell is Option #1, it is PERFECTLY okay for an LDS to say that it isn't #1 or #2 and that's it. But it is also PERFECTLY okay to admit that SOME people will end up in Option #1 (Hell)

Senility is not very becoming of you.

[Charity]

Greetings Bat-Man

You responded by saying

I think you're right about some things, and wrong about some other things, and I suggest you go directly to God to find out what he wants you to do to be saved.

So I'm not saved either way? How was I saved as a member of the LDS Church? So my salvation then depended on being a member of the church and was conditional? When I left the church it was void.

Some LDS I've talked with admit they believe in another Jesus. They don't have a problem with announcing this just like President Kimball.

Just admit it. Then we can talk about the differences between the two jesus's

In His Light

Charity

[Charity]

Vladd III said

That's an incorrect statement. LDS DO NOT believe that someone who simply rejects the restored gospel after having received it are going to Outer Darkness. You might consider reading up on LDS beliefs again before making false statements like this.

Thats the problem Vladd III. When one reads everything on the admission into Outer Darkness its not clear to anyone. One leader in the past says one thing and contemporary leaders and memebrs another. It's simply not clear. The Gospel according to our Creator God is not confusing and complicated to me.

If I had left the church during the time of Brigham Young I have no doubt that my blood would have been shed for me in the Blood Atonement ritual.
Someone would have loved me enough to shed my blood so I could go to heaven.

What must I do to be saved?

Sincerely,
Charity

[Bat-Man]

Originally Posted by Charity

So I'm not saved either way?

I didn't say you weren't saved either way. Where did you get that idea ?

How was I saved as a member of the LDS Church?

As a member of the (LDS) Church... aka The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints... you had accepted the ordinance of baptism by someone who had God's authority to baptize you with both water and the Holy Spirit, with the Holy Spirit being the one who would guide you as you exercised faith that you received from God our Father through Jesus Christ.

That's how salvation works for everyone, Charity, with the extent of a person's salvation determined by their level of obedience to the will of God as God directs them through Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit and any other messengers who God has authorized to speak for God.

So my salvation then depended on being a member of the church and was conditional?

Yes, Charity, your salvation depended and still depends upon being a member of the body of people God saved and/or is saving through obedience to Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit, and your salvation was and still is conditional upon your level of obedience to the will of God as God directs you through Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit.

When I left the church it was void ?

No, but you did limit how much you will be saved by limiting how much of God's direction you showed yourself willing to accept.

Some LDS I've talked with admit they believe in another Jesus. They don't have a problem with announcing this just like President Kimball.

Just admit it. Then we can talk about the differences between the two jesus's

I believe in the Jesus who speaks to me both personally and through his prophets and apostles, including his prophets and apostles of his true Church on this Earth today which is known to the world as The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

Which Jesus do you believe in ?

[Charity]

Originally Posted by Bat-Man

I didn't say you weren't saved either way. Where did you get that idea ?


As a member of the (LDS) Church... aka The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints... you had accepted the ordinance of baptism by someone who had God's authority to baptize you with both water and the Holy Spirit, with the Holy Spirit being the one who would guide you as you exercised faith that you received from God our Father through Jesus Christ.

That's how salvation works for everyone, Charity, with the extent of a person's salvation determined by their level of obedience to the will of God as God directs them through Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit and any other messengers who God has authorized to speak for God.


Yes, Charity, your salvation depended and still depends upon being a member of the body of people God saved and/or is saving through obedience to Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit, and your salvation was and still is conditional upon your level of obedience to the will of God as God directs you through Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit.


No, but you did limit how much you will be saved by limiting how much of God's direction you showed yourself willing to accept.


I believe in the Jesus who speaks to me both personally and through his prophets and apostles, including his prophets and apostles of his true Church on this Earth today which is known to the world as The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

Which Jesus do you believe in ?

Not your jesus. Why don't you just admit it ok? BTW thanks for taking the time. Do you post these messages at work or home. You don't look old enough to be retired.

[Charity]

Greetings Again Bat-Man

You said you didn't say that I wasn't saved. Below is your statement

I think you're right about some things, and wrong about some other things, and I suggest you go directly to God to find out what he wants you to do to be saved.

Sorry for misunderstanding the above statement. Your response in full explains what a non Mormon needs to do to be saved.

Sincerely,
Charity

[Bat-Man]

Originally Posted by Charity

Not your jesus.

Okay, but remember that you said that, yourself, not me.

Why don't you just admit it ok?

I'll admit that you have admitted to not worshipping the Jesus I worship.

I'm not sure if that is true or not, though.

Would it help if I also told you that the Jesus I worship is the one who inspired men to write the Holy Bible, through the power of the Holy Ghost, and that the Jesus I worship is also the same Jesus who was crucified on a cross about 2000 years ago as part of his mission to save people from themselves ?

Do you still say that the Jesus you worship is not the Jesus I worship ?

BTW thanks for taking the time.

You're welcome.

Do you post these messages at work or home ?

Yes.

You don't look old enough to be retired.

Thank you, but I am old enough. I've been on this Earth now for 48 years.

[Charity]

Bat-Man

You said:

Would it help if I also told you that the Jesus I worship is the one who inspired men to write the Holy Bible, through the power of the Holy Ghost, and that the Jesus I worship is also the same Jesus who was crucified on a cross about 2000 years ago as part of his mission to save people from themselves

You either worship the Jesus of the Bible or the jesus of the LDS Church. They're not one in the same. They can't be both because they're opposed to one another where salvation is concerned and salvation is very important in Christianity. President Kimball said as much. Are you familiar with his statement? I would think a Prophet of God's knowledge would be sufficient. What's so difficult about saying it?Why beat around the bush.

What say you?

Charity





.

[Bat-Man]

Originally Posted by Charity

You either worship the Jesus of the Bible or the jesus of the LDS Church. They're not one in the same.

Yes, they are the same Jesus. I deny your accusation.

I worshipped Jesus before I became a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, while I knew who I was worshipping then, and I'm still worshipping the same person that I knew then as Jesus Christ.

I simply know more about him now than I knew about him earlier.

They can't be both because they're opposed to one another

What some people say about Jesus contradicts what other people say about Jesus, but the testimony of Jesus revealed by prophets and apostles who wrote the Holy Bible is in perfect harmony with the testimony of Jesus revealed by prophets and apostles in these latter days in The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

President Kimball said as much. Are you familiar with his statement?

Yes, and what he meant is what I said in my response to you above.

I would think a Prophet of God's knowledge would be sufficient.

Then why do you reject what they have told you ?

[Charity]

Bat-Man

Is what Hinckley say below compatable with your belief of who Christ is?

"In bearing testimony of Jesus Christ, President Hinckley spoke of those outside the Church who say Latter-day Saints 'do not believe in the traditional Christ.' 'No, I don't. The traditional Christ of whom they speak is not the Christ of whom I speak'" (LDS Church News, week ending June 20, 1998, p.7).

How do you define the traditional Christ?

Sincerely in God's Grace

Charity

[Bat-Man]

Originally Posted by Charity

Bat-Man

Is what Hinckley said below compatable with your belief of who Christ is?

"In bearing testimony of Jesus Christ, President Hinckley spoke of those outside the Church who say Latter-day Saints 'do not believe in the traditional Christ.' 'No, I don't. The traditional Christ of whom they speak is not the Christ of whom I speak'" (LDS Church News, week ending June 20, 1998, p.7).

How do you define the traditional Christ?

Sincerely in God's Grace

Charity

I believe President Hinckley was referring to a Christ who no longer reveals doctrine to his Church as he once did through the Holy Ghost and living prophets and apostles on this Earth as the "traditional" Christ, and the Christ I worship continues to reveal doctrine to his Church as he once did through the Holy Ghost and living prophets and apostles on this Earth now.

[Charity]

Originally Posted by Bat-Man

Yes, they are the same Jesus. I deny your accusation.

I worshipped Jesus before I became a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, while I knew who I was worshipping then, and I'm still worshipping the same person that I knew then as Jesus Christ.

What was your born again experience in the Lutheran Church (?) I mean do you remember giving your heart to Jesus?

I simply know more about him now than I knew about him earlier.

You don't mind that the Bible says no one is to add or take away from the Bible without consequences? You don't think this applies to how you think you know more about Jesus now? What you know is not in the Bible. Isn't that right? If Joseph Smith translated the Bible correctly then why didn't he include all the add on's you believe in?


What some people say about Jesus contradicts what other people say about Jesus, but the testimony of Jesus revealed by prophets and apostles who wrote the Holy Bible is in perfect harmony with the testimony of Jesus revealed by prophets and apostles in these latter days in The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

Your are absolutely right that what some people say about Jesus conradicts what other people say. It definitely doesn't mean that one of them is right and the other wrong. One wrong + One wrong= two wrongs.

The testimony of Jesus revealed by prophets and apostles through out the Bible being in perfect harmony with LDS Apostles and Prophets is so wrong.

Yes, and what he meant is what I said in my response to you above.

The reason President Hinckley said what he said is what many of us here believe to be true about LDS: You worship a different Jesus.


Then why do you reject what they have told you ?

I reject what your apostles and prophets say about who Jesus really is and I agree with what Kimball and Hinkley and others say in that some LDS believe in a different Jesus.

Why is this so important? Because believing in a false jesus will not get anyone into heaven. And I care about LDS.

Sincerely in grace,
Charity

[Father_JD]

LOL. Mormon reindeer games, vlad.

You're making it :

Heaven #1
Heaven #2
Heaven #3

vs.

Hell


doesn't solve your self-contradictory position of:

Saying Mormons don't believe in hell, but DO believe in three heavens and then turn around and state people DO go to hell.

[Vlad III]

Originally Posted by Father_JD

LOL. Mormon reindeer games, vlad.

You're making it :

Heaven #1
Heaven #2
Heaven #3

vs.

Hell


doesn't solve your self-contradictory position of:

Saying Mormons don't believe in hell, but DO believe in three heavens and then turn around and state people DO go to hell.

Since I DIDN'T say the Mormons DON'T believe in Hell, I can understand why you are so obtuse to the LDS teachings. I'm sorry that the LDS teaching of 3 levels of Heaven AND a place called Outer Darkness still cannot sink into your understanding and you still are wont to misrepresent the LDS position.

Can I make it even easier for the Father JD? Maybe. Here goes:

Some people will end up in Heaven #1
Some people will end up in Heaven #2
Some people will end up in Heaven #3
Some people will end up in Outer darkness (Hell)

Sorry I cannot draw you colorful pictures for you to understand.

EDIT: You know, It's funny when you guys complain that LDS misrepresent your words/ beliefs. But yet you give a shining example of doing that very thing here; saying I claimed LDS do not believe in Hell. Scroll through the thread if you need to, but you'll not find that belief that you attributed to me. Do you intentially misrepresent others or is it just a sign of senility?

[Father_JD]

I know LDS doctrine only too well, vlad.

Listen to the reality of Mormon teaching:

3 heavens.
NO HELL

Although LDS pay lip service to "Outer Darkness" or "Hell" you guys deny the doctrine in practice...I mean you're the guys who believe MURDERERS, RAPISTS, all sorts of the most evil people imaginable will go to the LOWEST KINGDOM OF HEAVEN.

So why don't you get real, vlad??