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Thread: What evidence 'backs up' ANYTHING in the book of mormon?

  1. #1
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    Default What evidence 'backs up' ANYTHING in the book of mormon?

    mormons have ONLY THE WORD OF JOE SMITH that EVEN ONE EVENT, PERSON, or PLACE in the book of mormon ever existed.

    Do they think that GOD expects them to have 'blind' faith in joe smith?

    Jesus and the apostles always gave REASONS to believe. . .stuff from the OT that the Jews ALREADY KNEW TO BE FROM GOD

    NOTHING in the bom is 'supported' by ANY PHYSICAL EVIDENCE ANYWHERE

    There are
    No plates
    No witnesses to the text
    No way to 'check smith's 'translation''
    No artifacts
    No 'reformed Egyptian anything'

    NOTHING TO SUBSTANTIATE any REALITY to smith' fairytales. . .

    WHY do you suppose that is?

  2. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by Christian View Post
    [COLOR=#0000cd]mormons have ONLY THE WORD OF JOE SMITH that EVEN ONE EVENT, PERSON, or PLACE in the book of mormon ever existed.

    Do they think that GOD expects them to have 'blind' faith in joe smith?

    Jesus and the apostles always gave REASONS to believe. . .stuff from the OT that the Jews ALREADY KNEW TO BE FROM GOD

    NOTHING in the bom is 'supported' by ANY PHYSICAL EVIDENCE ANYWHERE

    There are
    No plates
    No witnesses to the text
    No way to 'check smith's 'translation''
    No artifacts
    No 'reformed Egyptian anything'

    NOTHING TO SUBSTANTIATE any REALITY to smith' fairytales. . .
    They have the Book of Mormon--and the witnesses thereof:

    Testimony of Three Witnesses

    Be it known unto all nations, kindreds, tongues, and people, unto whom this work shall come: That we, through the grace of God the Father, and our Lord Jesus Christ, have seen the plates which contain this record, which is a record of the people of Nephi, and also of the Lamanites, their brethren, and also of the people of Jared, who came from the tower of which hath been spoken. And we also know that they have been translated by the gift and power of God, for his voice hath declared it unto us; wherefore we know of a surety that the work is true. And we also testify that we have seen the engravings which are upon the plates; and they have been shown unto us by the power of God, and not of man. And we declare with words of soberness, that an angel of God came down from heaven, and he brought and laid before our eyes, that we beheld and saw the plates, and the engravings thereon; and we know that it is by the grace of God the Father, and our Lord Jesus Christ, that we beheld and bear record that these things are true. And it is marvelous in our eyes. Nevertheless, the voice of the Lord commanded us that we should bear record of it; wherefore, to be obedient unto the commandments of God, we bear testimony of these things. And we know that if we are faithful in Christ, we shall rid our garments of the blood of all men, and be found spotless before the judgment-seat of Christ, and shall dwell with him eternally in the heavens. And the honor be to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Ghost, which is one God. Amen.

    Oliver Cowdery
    David Whitmer
    Martin Harris


    Testimony of Eight Witnesses

    Be it known unto all nations, kindreds, tongues, and people, unto whom this work shall come: That Joseph Smith, Jun., the translator of this work, has shown unto us the plates of which hath been spoken, which have the appearance of gold; and as many of the leaves as the said Smith has translated we did handle with our hands; and we also saw the engravings thereon, all of which has the appearance of ancient work, and of curious workmanship. And this we bear record with words of soberness, that the said Smith has shown unto us, for we have seen and hefted, and know of a surety that the said Smith has got the plates of which we have spoken. And we give our names unto the world, to witness unto the world that which we have seen. And we lie not, God bearing witness of it.

    Christian Whitmer
    Jacob Whitmer
    Peter Whitmer, Jun.
    John Whitmer
    Hiram Page
    Joseph Smith, Sen.
    Hyrum Smith
    Samuel H. Smith

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    Let's see now. . .NOT ONE SINGLE ONE of joey smith's buddies ever TRANSLATED ONE WORD of what the fantasy book says. NOT ONE SINGLE WORD has ever been found in "reformed Egyptian" and NOTHING IS AVAILABLE to support ANY ACCURACY in joe's 'translation' which he made by staring at a rock in his hat.

    Do I have ALL of that RIGHT?

    CAN YOU PRODUCE ONE OTHER TRANSLATOR, DOCUMENT IN REFORMED ENGLISH, or ANY REASON TO BELIEVE 'TRANSLATING' can be done by gazing at a rock in a hat?

    OF COURSE you cannot. Genuinely "PROVING" fairytales and fantasies is impossible.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Christian View Post
    Let's see now. . .NOT ONE SINGLE ONE of joey smith's buddies ever TRANSLATED ONE WORD of what the fantasy book says. NOT ONE SINGLE WORD has ever been found in "reformed Egyptian" and NOTHING IS AVAILABLE to support ANY ACCURACY in joe's 'translation' which he made by staring at a rock in his hat.

    Do I have ALL of that RIGHT?

    CAN YOU PRODUCE ONE OTHER TRANSLATOR, DOCUMENT IN REFORMED ENGLISH, or ANY REASON TO BELIEVE 'TRANSLATING' can be done by gazing at a rock in a hat?

    OF COURSE you cannot. Genuinely "PROVING" fairytales and fantasies is impossible.
    https://bible.org/question/how-did-u...ummim-function

    How did the Urim and the Thummim function?

    Here’s probably the best word on the Urim and Thummim. It’s a couple of paragraphs from Dr. Bruce Waltke’s excellent book (which I highly recommend), entitled, “Finding the Will of God” (pp. 62-64):

    “The priest could use the urim and thummin to determine God’s will in a particular situation. We are not exactly sure what the urim and thummin were, but the priest carried in his breastplate perhaps two sticks or stones, one white and the other black, that would give a yes or no answer to a specific question. Should Israel be preparing for battle, they would somehow shake or toss the sticks. If they turned up black the Israelites would not go to battle, and if they turned up white they would proceed into battle with the knowledge that they were in the will of God. That is one form of divination that God allowed in the Old Testament. We read in Exodus 28:30, “Also put the Urim and the Thummin in the breastpiece, so they may be over Aaron’s heart whenever he enters the presence of the Lord. Thus Aaron will always bear the means of making decisions for the Israelites over his heart before the Lord.”

    Much has been made of the urim and thummin by modern mystics, who want to find in them the key to the divine mind. All sorts of fanciful explanations have been put forward, including that the items may have glowed, that they had secret words engraved on them, or that they were ancient artifacts with magical powers. However, it should be noted that 1 Samuel 28:6 makes clear a definite answer was not always obtainable, so it may not have been as simple as tossing two stones on ground. Moses never used them; they were given for the high priest in aiding those who could not find God’s guidance any other way.

    Some translate the words urim and thummin to mean “curse” and “blessing,” others simply “dark” and “light,” although the literal translation seems to be “light” and “perfections.” There is no proof that there were only two items; some early rabbis believed that the urim and thummin were a series of stones with Hebraic characters on them by which the Lord could spell out a message for the high priest. However, most scholars believe them to be two sticks or stones, perhaps precious stones, that God used in a miraculous way to reveal His will. They were used for national decisions like going to war, and for priestly matters.

    What Are the 'Urim and Thummim' (Exodus 28:30)?---http://www.cgg.org/index.cfm/fuseaction/Library.sr/CT/BQA/k/74/What-Are-Urim-Thummim-Exodus-2830.htm

    The Urim and Thummim are rather mysterious objects. The Bible does not specifically describe them. Even their names—possibly, Urim, "light" and Thummim, "perfection"—give scholars scarcely a clue to their form and function. Exodus 28:30 says that the Urim and Thummim were placed in a breastplate that Aaron, the high priest, wore. One of the functions of this breastplate was to reveal God's judgment, an account of which Moses records in Numbers 27:21. In this case, the Urim revealed what God wanted Israel to do. Saul and David probably consulted the Urim and Thummim through the high priest (I Samuel 14:36-37; 23:2-4; etc.). Biblical use of the Urim and Thummim is not specifically mentioned after the reign of David.

    Josephus, a well-known Jewish historian from the first century AD, wrote about the Urim and Thummim in his Antiquities of the Jews. The Thummim, he writes, were twelve stones which were set in three rows of four stones in the breastplate (3.7.5). He describes the Urim as being two sardonyx stones that were placed on the shoulders of the high priest (3.8.9). When God wished to guide the Israelites, He often did so by means of these stones. Josephus states, ". . . God declared beforehand, by those twelve stones which the high priest bare on his breast, and which were inserted into his breastplate, when they should be victorious in battle; for so great a splendor shone forth from them before the army began to march, that all the people were sensible of God's being present for their assistance" (216-217).

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    Default It was all joey smith's IMAGINATION, nothing more.

    What joey had was NOT the Biblical urim OR thumin. What joe had was a peepstone and a hat. NEITHER was used to 'translate' anything at all in the BIBLE.

    More 'trashing' of Biblical stuff that joey smith PRETENDED TO DO/HAVE.

    The TRUTH is STILL NONEof the book of mormon events, peoples, or places seems to have existed outside of joe smith's IMAGINATION.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Christian View Post
    What joey had was NOT the Biblical urim OR thumin.
    Joseph Smith had both the Urim and Thummim.

    What joe had was a peepstone and a hat. NEITHER was used to 'translate' anything at all in the BIBLE.
    The Bible is already translated. The Urim and Thummim was used in the translation of the Book of Mormon.

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    berry posted:

    Joseph Smith had both the Urim and Thummim.

    False! ALL joey smith had was his peepstone and a hat. Even mormon history records his rock in a hat thing. You can call his peepstone a cow if you want, but that does NOT make his peepstone into a cow.




    The Bible is already translated. The Urim and Thummim was used in the translation of the Book of Mormon.

    joey smith's rock in his hat is all that was used in the pretend 'translation' of the bom.

    NOBODY BUT JOEY ever claimed to 'translate' any document (even plates that mysteriously vanished) by peeping at a rock in a hat.

    Joey smith was a fraud, of course. No rational man would think otherwise.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Christian View Post
    False! ALL joey smith had was his peepstone and a hat. Even mormon history records his rock in a hat thing. You can call his peepstone a cow if you want, but that does NOT make his peepstone into a cow.
    How does the presence of a seer stone somehow cover up or cancel out the fact Joseph Smith also was in possession of the Urim and Thummim?

    As Joseph Smith testified to--he started out using the Urim and Thummim--but it was very cumbersome to bear--and the translation could only be conducted in a short spurts at a time, as he tired of the weight quickly.

    As Joseph Smith's skills increased, he found he could use other objects, such as a seer stone--to receive revelation in the translation process, which accelerated the translation process. He later found he could use his own mind as a means to receive revelation.

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    Exclamation And that must have gone 'poof' and disappeared too!

    Quote Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
    How does the presence of a seer stone somehow cover up or cancel out the fact Joseph Smith also was in possession of the Urim and Thummim?

    As Joseph Smith testified to--he started out using the Urim and Thummim--but it was very cumbersome to bear--and the translation could only be conducted in a short spurts at a time, as he tired of the weight quickly.

    As Joseph Smith's skills increased, he found he could use other objects, such as a seer stone--to receive revelation in the translation process, which accelerated the translation process. He later found he could use his own mind as a means to receive revelation.


    SUCH NONSENSE! HOW STUPID do you have to be to believe such SUPERSTITIOUS JUNK RELIGION? Doesn't the mere fact that your religion has to stoop to such low levels of SUPERSTITION tell you something about joey and his trash?


    And I suppose his 'urim and thummin' went 'poof' and disappeared too, so nobody could check its authenticity as an ancient artifact?

    It figures. Typical smith trash religious behavior. Invent something to talk about, then 'poof.'


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    Quote Originally Posted by Christian View Post
    SUCH NONSENSE! HOW STUPID do you have to be to believe such SUPERSTITIOUS JUNK RELIGION? Doesn't the mere fact that your religion has to stoop to such low levels of SUPERSTITION tell you something about joey and his trash?
    What do you consider as "nonsense", "stupid", superstitious", or "trash" about the reality of the Urim and Thummim?

    Exodus 28:30---King James Version (KJV)
    30 And thou shalt put in the breastplate of judgment the Urim and the Thummim; and they shall be upon Aaron's heart, when he goeth in before the Lord: and Aaron shall bear the judgment of the children of Israel upon his heart before the Lord continually.

    Leviticus 8:8---King James Version (KJV)
    8 And he put the breastplate upon him: also he put in the breastplate the Urim and the Thummim.

    Numbers 27:21---King James Version (KJV)
    21 And he shall stand before Eleazar the priest, who shall ask counsel for him after the judgment of Urim before the Lord: at his word shall they go out, and at his word they shall come in, both he, and all the children of Israel with him, even all the congregation.

    Deuteronomy 33:8---King James Version (KJV)
    8 And of Levi he said, Let thy Thummim and thy Urim be with thy holy one, whom thou didst prove at Massah, and with whom thou didst strive at the waters of Meribah;

    1 Samuel 28:6--King James Version (KJV)
    6 And when Saul enquired of the Lord, the Lord answered him not, neither by dreams, nor by Urim, nor by prophets.

    Ezra 2:63---King James Version (KJV)
    63 And the Tirshatha said unto them, that they should not eat of the most holy things, till there stood up a priest with Urim and with Thummim.

    And I suppose his 'urim and thummin' went 'poof' and disappeared too, so nobody could check its authenticity as an ancient artifact?
    Have you had any proof offered you of the Urim and Thummim--which was present in the OT? How about the Ark of the Covenant?

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    Default The conman 'lost' it all. The plates, the urim & thummim, AND 'reformed Egyptian.'

    berry posted:

    What do you consider as "nonsense", "stupid", superstitious", or "trash" about the reality of the Urim and Thummim?

    About the REAL urim and thummim? NOTHING. About your claim and joey smith's claim? ALL OF YOUR BASELESS JUNK RELIGIOUS CLAIMS.




    Have you had any proof offered you of the Urim and Thummim--which was present in the OT? How about the Ark of the Covenant?


    I have had point after point after point of the BIBLE confirmed to be TRUE by God's Holy Spirit, BY THE WORD OF GOD(THE BIBLE), and by a MOUNTAIN of evidence ranging from mathematical probabilites to evidence that the people, places, and events of the Bible EXISTED IN THE REAL WORLD.

    NONE OF WHICH JOEY SMITH'S BOM HAS. ALL IT HAS IS THE IMAGINATION OF JOEY SMITH and 'vanished plates, vanished urim and thummim, FALSE CLAIMS about professor Anthon, and CONTRADICTIONS between smithy's doctrines and GOD (inspired in THE BIBLE, GOD'S WORD)

    Sorry berry, but your conman's 'convenient disappearing act' with all of his 'stuff' shows that smith was a fraud. And as P.T. Barnum once said of people like you. . ."there's a sucker born every minute!"

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    Quote Originally Posted by Christian View Post
    I have had point after point after point of the BIBLE confirmed to be TRUE by God's Holy Spirit,
    But you were asking for physical evidence. What physical evidence do you have which supports the reality of the Urim and Thummim of the Biblical OT?

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    Quote Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
    But you were asking for physical evidence. What physical evidence do you have which supports the reality of the Urim and Thummim of the Biblical OT?


    So you don't believe the BIBLE either. Just because joey smith tells folks his rock in his hat is the 'urim and thummim' does not make it so.

    You have NOTHING TO SUPPORT YOUR RELIGION AT ALL other than the word of the shyster joey smith

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    Quote Originally Posted by Christian View Post
    So you don't believe the BIBLE either.
    I believe it--and the Biblical text testifies to the reality of the Urim and Thummim:


    Exodus 28:30---King James Version (KJV)
    30 And thou shalt put in the breastplate of judgment the Urim and the Thummim; and they shall be upon Aaron's heart, when he goeth in before the Lord: and Aaron shall bear the judgment of the children of Israel upon his heart before the Lord continually.

    Leviticus 8:8---King James Version (KJV)
    8 And he put the breastplate upon him: also he put in the breastplate the Urim and the Thummim.

    Numbers 27:21---King James Version (KJV)
    21 And he shall stand before Eleazar the priest, who shall ask counsel for him after the judgment of Urim before the Lord: at his word shall they go out, and at his word they shall come in, both he, and all the children of Israel with him, even all the congregation.

    Deuteronomy 33:8---King James Version (KJV)
    8 And of Levi he said, Let thy Thummim and thy Urim be with thy holy one, whom thou didst prove at Massah, and with whom thou didst strive at the waters of Meribah;

    1 Samuel 28:6--King James Version (KJV)
    6 And when Saul enquired of the Lord, the Lord answered him not, neither by dreams, nor by Urim, nor by prophets.

    Ezra 2:63---King James Version (KJV)
    63 And the Tirshatha said unto them, that they should not eat of the most holy things, till there stood up a priest with Urim and with Thummim.

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    Default All of joey's stuff. . .'poof!' disappears!

    Berry posted:

    Originally Posted by Christian
    So you don't believe the BIBLE either.


    I believe it--and the Biblical text testifies to the reality of the Urim and Thummim:
    [COLOR=#0000cd]

    YES THE BIBLE DOES testify to the reality of the Urim and Thummim; JUST NOT THAT THE ROCK IN JOEY SMITH'S HAT BEING the urim and thummim. ALL joey had in his hat was a rock. No urim or thummim anywhere in joey's possession.

    Joey was 'talking through his hat' (telling fairytales) when he was gazing at his peepstone.

    SUPERSTITIOUS NONSENSE, NOT BIBLICAL IN ANY WAY.

    joey was a fraud, a shyster, a known peepstone gazer, a common criminal and a heretic.

    Nothing more.

    NOBODY ANYWHERE EVER 'translated' text by peeping at a rock in his hat.

    Joey smith's dishonest word is all you have regarding ANY of your 'mormon-specific' junk.

    And anything resembling 'evidence' of it outside of his head. . .'poof!' disappears.

    You have no plates to check the translation of
    You have no 'reformed Egyptian' to check it with
    You have no 'urim & thummim' to show us
    You have NOT ONE SINGLE WORD translated by anyone else to vouch for joey's translation.

    NOTHING.

    ALL you have is the conman joey smith's word that it ever REALLY existed!.
    Last edited by Christian; 03-21-2017 at 12:29 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Christian View Post
    YES THE BIBLE DOES testify to the reality of the Urim and Thummim; JUST NOT THAT THE ROCK IN JOEY SMITH'S HAT BEING the urim and thummim.
    Please allow me to refresh your memory of what your post focused on:

    Originally Posted by Christian View Post SUCH NONSENSE! HOW STUPID do you have to be to believe such SUPERSTITIOUS JUNK RELIGION? Doesn't the mere fact that your religion has to stoop to such low levels of SUPERSTITION tell you something about joey and his trash?

    And I suppose his 'urim and thummin' went 'poof' and disappeared too, so nobody could check its authenticity as an ancient artifact?
    Again--the authenticity and reality of the Urim and Thummim can be verified through the Biblical witness--and it is not superstition:

    Exodus 28:30---King James Version (KJV)
    30 And thou shalt put in the breastplate of judgment the Urim and the Thummim; and they shall be upon Aaron's heart, when he goeth in before the Lord: and Aaron shall bear the judgment of the children of Israel upon his heart before the Lord continually.

    Leviticus 8:8---King James Version (KJV)
    8 And he put the breastplate upon him: also he put in the breastplate the Urim and the Thummim.

    Numbers 27:21---King James Version (KJV)
    21 And he shall stand before Eleazar the priest, who shall ask counsel for him after the judgment of Urim before the Lord: at his word shall they go out, and at his word they shall come in, both he, and all the children of Israel with him, even all the congregation.

    Deuteronomy 33:8---King James Version (KJV)
    8 And of Levi he said, Let thy Thummim and thy Urim be with thy holy one, whom thou didst prove at Massah, and with whom thou didst strive at the waters of Meribah;

    1 Samuel 28:6--King James Version (KJV)
    6 And when Saul enquired of the Lord, the Lord answered him not, neither by dreams, nor by Urim, nor by prophets.

    Ezra 2:63---King James Version (KJV)
    63 And the Tirshatha said unto them, that they should not eat of the most holy things, till there stood up a priest with Urim and with Thummim.

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    Default Joey's junk always goes 'poof' and disappears.

    Quote Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
    Please allow me to refresh your memory of what your post focused on:



    Again--the authenticity and reality of the Urim and Thummim can be verified through the Biblical witness--and it is not superstition:

    Exodus 28:30---King James Version (KJV)
    30 And thou shalt put in the breastplate of judgment the Urim and the Thummim; and they shall be upon Aaron's heart, when he goeth in before the Lord: and Aaron shall bear the judgment of the children of Israel upon his heart before the Lord continually.

    Leviticus 8:8---King James Version (KJV)
    8 And he put the breastplate upon him: also he put in the breastplate the Urim and the Thummim.

    Numbers 27:21---King James Version (KJV)
    21 And he shall stand before Eleazar the priest, who shall ask counsel for him after the judgment of Urim before the Lord: at his word shall they go out, and at his word they shall come in, both he, and all the children of Israel with him, even all the congregation.

    Deuteronomy 33:8---King James Version (KJV)
    8 And of Levi he said, Let thy Thummim and thy Urim be with thy holy one, whom thou didst prove at Massah, and with whom thou didst strive at the waters of Meribah;

    1 Samuel 28:6--King James Version (KJV)
    6 And when Saul enquired of the Lord, the Lord answered him not, neither by dreams, nor by Urim, nor by prophets.

    Ezra 2:63---King James Version (KJV)
    63 And the Tirshatha said unto them, that they should not eat of the most holy things, till there stood up a priest with Urim and with Thummim.
    ALL of the junk joey smith supposedly 'found' has gone 'poof' and disappeared, so nobody could check its authenticity.

    Joey's junk (which he PRETENDS are real) goes 'poof' and disappears. AFTER ALL, he wouldn't want you to find out the TRUTH, that it never existed, now would he?

    joey never HAD any urim or thummim. ALL he had was rocks in his head and one in his hat!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Christian View Post
    ALL of the junk joey smith supposedly 'found' has gone 'poof' and disappeared, so nobody could check its authenticity.
    As the Biblical record testifies to--the Urim and Thummim are verifed as authentic within the Biblical record:

    Exodus 28:30---King James Version (KJV)
    30 And thou shalt put in the breastplate of judgment the Urim and the Thummim; and they shall be upon Aaron's heart, when he goeth in before the Lord: and Aaron shall bear the judgment of the children of Israel upon his heart before the Lord continually.

    Leviticus 8:8---King James Version (KJV)
    8 And he put the breastplate upon him: also he put in the breastplate the Urim and the Thummim.

    Numbers 27:21---King James Version (KJV)
    21 And he shall stand before Eleazar the priest, who shall ask counsel for him after the judgment of Urim before the Lord: at his word shall they go out, and at his word they shall come in, both he, and all the children of Israel with him, even all the congregation.

    Deuteronomy 33:8---King James Version (KJV)
    8 And of Levi he said, Let thy Thummim and thy Urim be with thy holy one, whom thou didst prove at Massah, and with whom thou didst strive at the waters of Meribah;

    1 Samuel 28:6--King James Version (KJV)
    6 And when Saul enquired of the Lord, the Lord answered him not, neither by dreams, nor by Urim, nor by prophets.

    Ezra 2:63---King James Version (KJV)
    63 And the Tirshatha said unto them, that they should not eat of the most holy things, till there stood up a priest with Urim and with Thummim.

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    Default Joey's fake junk still goes 'poof' and vanishes!

    [QUOTE=dberrie2000;172386]As the Biblical record testifies to--the Urim and Thummim are verifed as authentic within the Biblical record:

    BUT NEVER as having been in the hands of your perverted and dirty criminal joey smith. All HE HAD was rocks in his head, and a rock in his hat. No urim or thummim THERE.

    Rolls-Royce Automobiles exist too, but YOU likely don't have one! Urim and Thummim exist, but NOT IN JOEY'S HAT! Joey was a fraud and a heretic. . .why would a fraud and heretic have them anyway?

    Do you think he picked them up at the local five-and-dime store?

    And what do you think happened to them? Did he simply 'lose' them? Drop them in the horse-trough?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Christian View Post
    BUT NEVER as having been in the hands of your perverted and dirty criminal joey smith. All HE HAD was rocks in his head, and a rock in his hat. No urim or thummim THERE.

    Rolls-Royce Automobiles exist too, but YOU likely don't have one!
    Hi Christian:

    I've never claimed I had any Rolls Royce, but there are a number of witnesses who saw the Urim and Thummim while Joseph Smith translated--and testified to that reality.

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