The Mormon Dilemma

[BigJulie]

Originally Posted by DrDavidT

again being transfigured was not and is not how one is allowed to see God. Notice in the p***age that God does not transfigure Moses or say he has to do that.

As for "as Joseph Smith saw God and died. Clearly, the world will not let a witness of God live." We know that Joseph Smith lived so that comment makes no sense as does the latter half of that statement.

You limit the use of the term 'face to face' to a very restricted literal definition which is not how it is used in those p***ages. Smith was very clear in his declaration that he saw and talked to God the father in a very restricted literal definition of the term face to face but he forgot what the Bible said so again the Mormons have a dilemma.

Mormons should have a problem with it as their faith and their god are now more than suspect but wrong.

Being transfigured is how one sees God. Dberrie gave a very good scripture that gives this insight.

Even Jesus was transfigured:

Matthew 17:1-2--
1 And after six days Jesus taketh Peter, James, and John his brother, and bringeth them up into an high mountain apart,
2 And was transfigured before them: and his face did shine as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light.

Christ was transfigured when he spoke to God the Father. Or do you ***ume he did not see him?

Christ did not die when he spoke to His Father, but he was killed shortly thereafter.

And here is Stephen's experience.
Act 7:55 But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God,

[DrDavidT]

Being transfigured is how one sees God. Dberrie gave a very good scripture that gives this insight.

uhm...no. Since i was talking about Moses who lived long before Christ and the act of transfiguration. Notice that the disciples were not transfigured yet they saw Moses and Elijah as well. God was not there it seems if you read the p***age correctly until after the transfiguration and he only was evident by a voice, no one saw God.

Jesus was never transfigured when he prayed and talked to his father, please read the Gospels again and note all the times Jesus prayed and was not transfigured. Jesus death had nothing to do with seeing God. Again, speaking to God was not going to bring death. if it would then no one could pray.

If you read the p***age again, Stephen only saw 'the glory of God not God himself. There is a difference between the two.

***your use of scripture answers your complaint about how Christians always tell Mormons that they do not understand the Bible. You do not know the Bible nor understand it, let alone use it correctly.

[BigJulie]

[QUOTE]

Originally Posted by DrDavidT

uhm...no. Since i was talking about Moses who lived long before Christ and the act of transfiguration.

You mean long before Christ had a body, correct? Or do you not believe that Christ existed prior to his birth, death, and resurrection?

Notice that the disciples were not transfigured yet they saw Moses and Elijah as well. God was not there it seems if you read the p***age correctly until after the transfiguration and he only was evident by a voice, no one saw God.

What? So you don't think Christ saw God? And only heard a voice as well?

Jesus was never transfigured when he prayed and talked to his father, please read the Gospels again and note all the times Jesus prayed and was not transfigured.

Yes, praying does not necessitate transfiguration.

Jesus death had nothing to do with seeing God. Again, speaking to God was not going to bring death. if it would then no one could pray.

What? You don't think that Christ learned things in that discussion with God that ended with the Jews crucifying him? The way I read it, once he had that discussion, he begins to share with his disciples that he will be dead shortly.

If you read the p***age again, Stephen only saw 'the glory of God not God himself. There is a difference between the two.

No, glory means to see something in its truth and fullness, brightly and purely.

***your use of scripture answers your complaint about how Christians always tell Mormons that they do not understand the Bible. You do not know the Bible nor understand it, let alone use it correctly.

Or you don't.

[DrDavidT]

[QUOTE=BigJulie;172740]

You mean long before Christ had a body, correct? Or do you not believe that Christ existed prior to his birth, death, and resurrection?

What? So you don't think Christ saw God? And only heard a voice as well?

Yes, praying does not necessitate transfiguration.

What? You don't think that Christ learned things in that discussion with God that ended with the Jews crucifying him? The way I read it, once he had that discussion, he begins to share with his disciples that he will be dead shortly.

No, glory means to see something in its truth and fullness, brightly and purely.

Or you don't.

Obviously I was referring to his time on earth.
We do not know w Christ 'saw' as the text doesn't tell us. Do not read into a text what is not there. Your connection to transfiguration has not substance nor evidence.

You do not understand the text at all.

You do not understand the word 'glory' an dhow it is used in that p***age.

If God only appeared with a voice do you think Christ saw him physically/spiritually? we do not know what C

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by DrDavidT

u

Jesus was never transfigured when he prayed and talked to his father, please read the Gospels again and note all the times Jesus prayed and was not transfigured..

Luke 9:28-14:25

he prayed and during the prayer he changed in appearance...


i dont believe the text records Jesus "speaking" to the father at this point,,,But there clearly are 'prayers"....so it could be rightly suggested that there was 'speaking" going on..

[BigJulie]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

Luke 9:28-14:25

he prayed and during the prayer he changed in appearance...


i dont believe the text records Jesus "speaking" to the father at this point,,,But there clearly are 'prayers"....so it could be rightly suggested that there was 'speaking" going on..

Really? Well, then--who exactly said this " While he yet spake, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them: and behold a voice out of the cloud, which said, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased; hear ye him. "---do you think Christ was speaking to himself and then suddenly his apostles heard who exactly say this?

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by BigJulie

Really? Well, then--who exactly said this " While he yet spake, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them: and behold a voice out of the cloud, which said, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased; hear ye him. "

the answer is that the most likely answer is that the Father said this....

But there is nothing about the son speaking to the father except for the suggestion that the son was in prayer, and this might be correctly interpreted as speaking to the father,,,but we dont have any clear wording to suggest that Jesus spoke at all to the father, but is said to be talking with Moses and Elijah .

So we can't say that Jesus spoke to the father....

we can say that the Father spoke to the other men who there and NOT to the son directly at all....