Salvation--is it only for those to obey the commandments perfectly?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by BigJulie

How many new translations are there exactly James? And haven't you noted difference between the translations using the older m****cripts than there is in the KJV?

Here is one site that compares the KJV to the NIV.

http://www.ecclesia.org/truth/m-m.html

Here is an example of a change from one to the other.

Revelation 22:14, "Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city."
Revelation 22:14, "Blessed are those who wash their robes, that they may have the right to the tree of life and may go through the gates into the city."

If I remember right, there is a discussion here somewhere discussing these very changes--was it you who used the NIV to defend against having to keep the commandments to be saved?

---I just found it. I was actually Billyray, using the NIV to discredit doctrine being argued for in the KJV. Namely that one must keep the commandments to be saved. Here is the exchange:

In order to show that I was trying to "discredit doctrine being argued for in the KJV" you have to show that the doctrine in question is actually taught in the KJV.

Does the KJV Bible teach that salvation is based on perfect obedience to the commandments?

[BigJulie]

Originally Posted by Billyray

In order to show that I was trying to "discredit doctrine being argued for in the KJV" you have to show that the doctrine in question is actually taught in the KJV.

Does the KJV Bible teach that salvation is based on perfect obedience to the commandments?

You are changing the goal posts here Billyray--it went from keeping the commandments to perfect obedience. I say it is possible to keep the commandments while not perfect. In fact, I would argue that Christ addresses this specifically with the teaching of repentance.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by BigJulie

You are changing the goal posts here Billyray--it went from keeping the commandments to perfect obedience. I say it is possible to keep the commandments while not perfect. In fact, I would argue that Christ addresses this specifically with the teaching of repentance.

Thanks for pointing out where you think that I misstated your position. That helps me better understand what you believe. I have listed below your position. If what I have written is incorrect please let me know.

1. Salvation is not based on obedience to the commandments.
2. Salvation is based on continuous repentance.

[BigJulie]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Thanks for pointing out where you think that I misstated your position. That helps me better understand what you believe. I have listed below your position. If what I have written is incorrect please let me know.

1. Salvation is not based on obedience to the commandments.
2. Salvation is based on continuous repentance.

You keep making either or statement when there should be none. How about

1. Salvation is based on faith in Jesus Christ.
2. Christ provides both the means and ability to follow Him through the atonement.
3. Christ asks us to keep His commandments, but knowing we will fall short, provides for us a way to continue to follow him via repentance. Therefore, he asks us to repent and follow Him.
4. Repentance thereby is also a commandment. We keep his commandments by doing our best and then repenting when we fall short. In this way, we keep his commandments and thereby show faith in Him.

[James Banta]

Originally Posted by BigJulie

You keep making either or statement when there should be none. How about

1. Salvation is based on faith in Jesus Christ.
2. Christ provides both the means and ability to follow Him through the atonement.
3. Christ asks us to keep His commandments, but knowing we will fall short, provides for us a way to continue to follow him via repentance. Therefore, he asks us to repent and follow Him.
4. Repentance thereby is also a commandment. We keep his commandments by doing our best and then repenting when we fall short. In this way, we keep his commandments and thereby show faith in Him.

We either repent or we don't.. There is no sin in the life of a Christian. Jesus died for all our sin.. We repent and turn from it we like Paul never sin again.. It is sin that lives in us that sins I have asked you to read that p***age before I guess you thought it was just anti-mormon trash.. It isn't is is the word of God through Paul the Apostle.

Romans 7:17
Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

IHS jim

[BigJulie]

Originally Posted by James Banta

We either repent or we don't.. There is no sin in the life of a Christian. Jesus died for all our sin.. We repent and turn from it we like Paul never sin again.. It is sin that lives in us that sins I have asked you to read that p***age before I guess you thought it was just anti-mormon trash.. It isn't is is the word of God through Paul the Apostle.

Romans 7:17
Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

IHS jim

I think that there is a difference between the LDS faith and others---we see repentance as on-going rather than a one-time shot. We believe when we take the sacrament, we repent anew as well as regularly throughout our lives.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by BigJulie

You keep making either or statement when there should be none. How about

1. Salvation is based on faith in Jesus Christ.
2. Christ provides both the means and ability to follow Him through the atonement.
3. Christ asks us to keep His commandments, but knowing we will fall short, provides for us a way to continue to follow him via repentance. Therefore, he asks us to repent and follow Him.
4. Repentance thereby is also a commandment. We keep his commandments by doing our best and then repenting when we fall short. In this way, we keep his commandments and thereby show faith in Him.

OK so let me see if I understand your position.

1. Obedience to the commandments is not a requirement for salvation
2. Repentance is a requirement for salvation

[BigJulie]

Originally Posted by Billyray

OK so let me see if I understand your position.

1. Obedience to the commandments is not a requirement for salvation
2. Repentance is a requirement for salvation

Nope, I think if you just cut and paste what I have written in four simple lines, then you would have it straight.

This so much reminds me of the lawyers asking Christ--who is my neighbor? (In other words, they asked--"let me get this straight.")

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by BigJulie

Nope, I think if you just cut and paste what I have written in four simple lines, then you would have it straight.

This so much reminds me of the lawyers asking Christ--who is my neighbor? (In other words, they asked--"let me get this straight.")

I thought that I had your position down but from your answer I guess I did not. Which one of the following (or both) are incorrect below?

1. Obedience to the commandments is not a requirement for salvation
2. Repentance is a requirement for salvation

[The Pheonix]

Originally Posted by Billyray

In order to show that I was trying to "discredit doctrine being argued for in the KJV" you have to show that the doctrine in question is actually taught in the KJV.

Does the KJV Bible teach that salvation is based on perfect obedience to the commandments?

We are imperfect beings, made perfect through repentance and obedience...just as Christ did. Or do you think God gives commandments and the charge to "be Ye therefore perfect, even as your Father in heaven is perfect" to mock us.

[Libby]

I think we are made perfect in Jesus Christ, but not through obedience (because we could not be perfectly obedient, and Christ did that for us), but we are made perfect in him by putting our faith in him and what he did for us.

[BigJulie]

Originally Posted by Libby

I think we are made perfect in Jesus Christ, but not through obedience (because we could not be perfectly obedient, and Christ did that for us), but we are made perfect in him by putting our faith in him and what he did for us.

I see obedience the same way I see teaching a child to ride a bike. The child wants to ride, the parent wants to teach. So, the parent runs behind, tells the kid to peddle, when to break, what dangers to look for and keeps running behind. And the child who does well listens and trusts and does what the parent asks (the child shows faith that he can succeed with his parents help by doing what the parent asks...or obedience.) And the child falls and bumps and falls again, but trusts and obeys again. Then one day, the child looks back and he is riding with the parent smiling at him.

In this way, we are purified and perfected---line upon line, step by step.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by BigJulie

I see obedience the same way I see teaching a child to ride a bike. The child wants to ride, the parent wants to teach. So, the parent runs behind, tells the kid to peddle, when to break, what dangers to look for and keeps running behind. And the child who does well listens and trusts and does what the parent asks (the child shows faith that he can succeed with his parents help by doing what the parent asks...or obedience.) And the child falls and bumps and falls again, but trusts and obeys again. Then one day, the child looks back and he is riding with the parent smiling at him.

In this way, we are purified and perfected---line upon line, step by step.

But you never keep all of the commandments. Is that a fair ***essment of what you believe?

[Libby]

Originally Posted by BigJulie

I see obedience the same way I see teaching a child to ride a bike. The child wants to ride, the parent wants to teach. So, the parent runs behind, tells the kid to peddle, when to break, what dangers to look for and keeps running behind. And the child who does well listens and trusts and does what the parent asks (the child shows faith that he can succeed with his parents help by doing what the parent asks...or obedience.) And the child falls and bumps and falls again, but trusts and obeys again. Then one day, the child looks back and he is riding with the parent smiling at him.

In this way, we are purified and perfected---line upon line, step by step.

Have you ever seen the video of the father who runs triathlons with his son, who has muscular dystrophy? Very inspiring!! I believe that is the true relationship we have with Jesus Christ. He is running the triathlon that we could not run (because of our sin nature). When we completely put our faith in him, we are like the son being carried by his father and winning the race, through HIS efforts, not our own.

[Libby]

[BigJulie]

Originally Posted by Libby

Have you ever seen the video of the father who runs triathlons with his son, who has muscular dystrophy? Very inspiring!! I believe that is the true relationship we have with Jesus Christ. He is running the triathlon that we could not run (because of our sin nature). When we completely put our faith in him, we are like the son being carried by his father and winning the race, through HIS efforts, not our own.

Yes, I agree that he does things we can not do for ourselves...but Christ asks us to take His yoke upon us---to do as He asks. While His burden was so much larger, He does ask us to obey Him. I do think we put in our own efforts...I have seen that really following Christ does take effort. While He makes the burden so much lighter, he still asks us to bear His yoke.

[Libby]

Originally Posted by BigJulie

Yes, I agree that he does things we can not do for ourselves...but Christ asks us to take His yoke upon us---to do as He asks. While His burden was so much larger, He does ask us to obey Him. I do think we put in our own efforts...I have seen that really following Christ does take effort. While He makes the burden so much lighter, he still asks us to bear His yoke.

I agree that obedience is important, mainly, so that we are not disrespecting the cross, by continuing to lay sin at the feet of Jesus...and really we can only do that (obey), because of the Christ in us. But, our salvation has already been purchased (through Christ's Atonement) and we cannot really add to that. I believe it is complete and our works cannot/do not add to it. I think it's human nature to what to add to it, but really we cannot, which is why we needed Jesus, to begin with.

[BigJulie]

Originally Posted by Libby

I agree that obedience is important, mainly, so that we are not disrespecting the cross, by continuing to lay sin at the feet of Jesus...and really we can only do that (obey), because of the Christ in us. But, our salvation has already been purchased (through Christ's Atonement) and we cannot really add to that. I believe it is complete and our works cannot/do not add to it. I think it's human nature to what to add to it, but really we cannot, which is why we needed Jesus, to begin with.

Yes, our salvation has been purchased already. But this is where we differ as we recognize the degrees of glory (all which are part of salvation.)

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by BigJulie

Yes, our salvation has been purchased already. But this is where we differ as we recognize the degrees of glory (all which are part of salvation.)

Can you show me in the Bible where it teaches that salvation means eternal separation from God the Father?

[BigJulie]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Can you show me in the Bible where it teaches that salvation means eternal separation from God the Father?

Well, as the three are One (Godhead)---then even if the Holy Ghost is there...there is no separation from God...according to you. His Spirit is present.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by BigJulie

Well, as the three are One (Godhead)---then even if the Holy Ghost is there...there is no separation from God...according to you. His Spirit is present.

Mormonism teaches polytheism and that the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are three separate and distinct gods (not to mention all of the other mormon gods like idols and unrighteous judges). In the Telestial Kingdom--which BigJ is calling salvation--there is eternal separation from God the Father. I would certainly like to know where eternal separation from God the Father is called salvation. Any verses to back you up on this one?

[BigJulie]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Mormonism teaches polytheism and that the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are three separate and distinct gods (not to mention all of the other mormon gods like idols and unrighteous judges). In the Telestial Kingdom--which BigJ is calling salvation--there is eternal separation from God the Father. I would certainly like to know where eternal separation from God the Father is called salvation. Any verses to back you up on this one?

Actually, what we preach is that all three are part of the Godhead. Who are other Mormon gods?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by BigJulie

Actually, what we preach is that all three are part of the Godhead. Who are other Mormon gods?

Really? Is that a new teaching that you are telling me about. I think you are trying to pull the wool over my eyes. Let's see.

LDS teachings
1. the father is a god and has a body of flesh and bones
2. the son is a god and has a body of flesh and bones
3. the holy ghost is a god and will someday receive a body of flesh and bones
4. each is a separate and distinct god
5. the unrighteous judges are separate gods
6. some lds will become gods

There are so many gods it is hard to keep them all straight. A truly polytheistic religion outside of Christianity.

[The Pheonix]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Really? Is that a new teaching that you are telling me about. I think you are trying to pull the wool over my eyes. Let's see.

LDS teachings
1. the father is a god and has a body of flesh and bones
2. the son is a god and has a body of flesh and bones
3. the holy ghost is a god and will someday receive a body of flesh and bones
4. each is a separate and distinct god
5. the unrighteous judges are separate gods
6. some lds will become gods

There are so many gods it is hard to keep them all straight. A truly polytheistic religion outside of Christianity.

She asked you to name them...do it, if you can.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by The Pheonix

She asked you to name them...do it, if you can.

Originally Posted by Billyray

Really? Is that a new teaching that you are telling me about. I think you are trying to pull the wool over my eyes. Let's see.

LDS teachings
1. the father is a god and has a body of flesh and bones
2. the son is a god and has a body of flesh and bones
3. the holy ghost is a god and will someday receive a body of flesh and bones
4. each is a separate and distinct god
5. the unrighteous judges are separate gods
6. some lds will become gods

There are so many gods it is hard to keep them all straight. A truly polytheistic religion outside of Christianity.

7. Abraham
8. Isaac
9. Jacob
10. 12 Apostles.