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Thread: Interesting video about The Book of Enoch

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    Senior Member jude1:3's Avatar
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    Default Interesting video about The Book of Enoch

    • The Ethiopian Orthodox Church has The Book of Enoch as apart of their scriptures:
    http://www.ethiopianorthodox.org/eng...cal/books.html


    • Another side note is that The Ethiopian Orthodox Church was not apart of the Council of Chalcedon (451 A.D.)
    and is apart of the Oriental Orthodox Church:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oriental_Orthodoxy


    The Fruits of Macroevolution are: Atheism, Social Darwinism, Racism, Eugenics and No Moral Absolutes.

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    • The Essenes were a Jewish sect that existed before Christ.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Essenes
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Enoch


    • Fragments of The Book of Enoch were found with The Dead Sea Scrolls:
    https://www.loc.gov/exhibits/scrolls/scr3.html









    • Church Father Quotes about The Book of Enoch:

    Tertullian, an early church father and founder of Latin Christianity, wrote a few positive things concerning the Book of Enoch. Tertulian writes as follows in his 2nd century work, On the Apparel of Women I 3:1-3.

    I am aware that the Scripture of Enoch, which has assigned this order of action to angels, is not received by some, because it is not admitted into the Jewish canon either. I suppose they did not think that, having been published before the deluge, it could have safely survived that world-wide calamity, the abolisher of all things. If that is the reason for rejecting it, let them recall to their memory that Noah, the survivor of the deluge, was the great-grandson of Enoch himself; and he, of course, had heard and remembered, from domestic renown and hereditary tradition, concerning his own great-grandfather’s ‘grace in the sight of God,’ (Genesis 6:8) and concerning all his preachings; since Enoch had given no other charge to Methuselah than that he should hand on the knowledge of them to his posterity. Noah therefore, no doubt, might have succeeded in the trusteeship of his preaching; or, had the case been otherwise, he would not have been silent alike concerning the disposition of things made by God, his Preserver, and concerning the particular glory of his own house.

    “If Noah had not had this conservative power by so short a route, there would still be this consideration to warrant our assertion of the genuineness of this Scripture: he could equally have renewed it, under the Spirit’s inspiration, after it had been destroyed by the violence of the deluge, as, after the destruction of Jerusalem by the Babylonian storming of it, every document of the Jewish literature is generally agreed to have been restored through Ezra.

    “But since Enoch in the same Scripture has preached likewise concerning the Lord, nothing at all must be rejected by us which pertains to us; and we read that ‘every Scripture suitable for edification is divinely inspired.’ (2 Timothy 3:16) By the Jews it may now seem to have been rejected for that very reason, just like all the other portions nearly which tell of Christ. Nor, of course, is this fact wonderful, that they did not receive some Scriptures which spake of Him whom even in person, speaking in their presence, they were not to receive. To these considerations is added the fact that Enoch possesses a testimony in the Apostle Jude.” (Jude 1:14-15)


    http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0402.htm
    http://torahdrivenlife.com/articles/...book-of-enoch/
    The Fruits of Macroevolution are: Atheism, Social Darwinism, Racism, Eugenics and No Moral Absolutes.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jude1:3 View Post
    • The Essenes were a Jewish sect that existed before Christ.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Essenes
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Enoch


    • Fragments of The Book of Enoch were found with The Dead Sea Scrolls:
    https://www.loc.gov/exhibits/scrolls/scr3.html









    • Church Father Quotes about The Book of Enoch:

    Tertullian, an early church father and founder of Latin Christianity, wrote a few positive things concerning the Book of Enoch. Tertulian writes as follows in his 2nd century work, On the Apparel of Women I 3:1-3.

    I am aware that the Scripture of Enoch, which has assigned this order of action to angels, is not received by some, because it is not admitted into the Jewish canon either. I suppose they did not think that, having been published before the deluge, it could have safely survived that world-wide calamity, the abolisher of all things. If that is the reason for rejecting it, let them recall to their memory that Noah, the survivor of the deluge, was the great-grandson of Enoch himself; and he, of course, had heard and remembered, from domestic renown and hereditary tradition, concerning his own great-grandfather’s ‘grace in the sight of God,’ (Genesis 6:8) and concerning all his preachings; since Enoch had given no other charge to Methuselah than that he should hand on the knowledge of them to his posterity. Noah therefore, no doubt, might have succeeded in the trusteeship of his preaching; or, had the case been otherwise, he would not have been silent alike concerning the disposition of things made by God, his Preserver, and concerning the particular glory of his own house.

    “If Noah had not had this conservative power by so short a route, there would still be this consideration to warrant our assertion of the genuineness of this Scripture: he could equally have renewed it, under the Spirit’s inspiration, after it had been destroyed by the violence of the deluge, as, after the destruction of Jerusalem by the Babylonian storming of it, every document of the Jewish literature is generally agreed to have been restored through Ezra.

    “But since Enoch in the same Scripture has preached likewise concerning the Lord, nothing at all must be rejected by us which pertains to us; and we read that ‘every Scripture suitable for edification is divinely inspired.’ (2 Timothy 3:16) By the Jews it may now seem to have been rejected for that very reason, just like all the other portions nearly which tell of Christ. Nor, of course, is this fact wonderful, that they did not receive some Scriptures which spake of Him whom even in person, speaking in their presence, they were not to receive. To these considerations is added the fact that Enoch possesses a testimony in the Apostle Jude.” (Jude 1:14-15)


    http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0402.htm
    http://torahdrivenlife.com/articles/...book-of-enoch/
    Does this mean you support canonization of Enoch?

    Why I do not support canonization:

    1. Enoch is clearly post-exilic in text style; my sources put the writing at about 150 BC. Wikipedia states "although modern scholars estimate the older sections (mainly in the Book of the Watchers) to date from about 300 BC, and the latest part (Book of Parables) probably to the first century BC."

    2. Enoch is called pseudoepigrapha because the writer is not Enoch, but claims to be.

    3. Gen. 6:4 says "There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown." which clearly indicates that since the giants (nephilim) were there before the event, they could not have been the offspring of that union. Therefore, the basis of the nephilim origin in Enoch is not Biblical.

    4. There are indications within Enoch that imply its fictional nature, such as: (1) Giants 3000 els in height, which would put them 4500 ft. tall. (2) he saw a vision in the land of Dan, which didn't exist until about 1500 years after Enoch.

    5. The idea of a union between angels and women is problematic in scriptures such as Mat. 22:30 and Heb. 1:5.

    Some people claim that Jude quoted Enoch, and therefore validates Enoch as canon. I differ with this, as Jude may have quoted an oral tradition as an original source, which could have been the same oral tradition that the writer of Enoch quoted. Some false writings do the same in an attempt to validate themselves. Even if Jude paid attention to the Enoch quote in the book of Enoch (as it stands today), it does not necessarily validate Enoch as canon, because truth can be quoted from fiction material and still be truth. I'll bet I can get some good truth quotes from Moby Dich.
    TD

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    Quote Originally Posted by tdidymas View Post
    Does this mean you support canonization of Enoch?

    I used to not think it was legit, but now I do. Especially after reading quotes from Church Fathers.

    • More Quotes from Church Fathers from : http://torahdrivenlife.com/articles/...book-of-enoch/

    Origen appeals to the Book of Enoch as having the same canonical authority as he does the Book of Psalms. He writes as follows in De Principiis IV.

    “But some one will perhaps inquire whether we can obtain out of Scripture any grounds for such an understanding of the subject. Now I think some such view is indicated in the Psalms, when the prophet says, ‘My eyes have seen your imperfection;’ (Psalm 139:16) by which the mind of the prophet, examining with keener glance the first principles of things, and separating in thought and imagination only between matter and its qualities, perceived the imperfection of God, which certainly is understood to be perfected by the addition of qualities. Enoch also, in his book, speaks as follows: ‘I have walked on even to imperfection;’ which expression I consider may be understood in a similar manner, viz., that the mind of the prophet proceeded in its scrutiny and investigation of all visible things, until it arrived at that first beginning in which it beheld imperfect matter existing without ‘qualities.’ For it is written in the same book of Enoch, ‘I beheld the whole of matter;’ which is so understood as if he had said: ‘I have clearly seen all the divisions of matter which are broken up from one into each individual species either of men, or animals, or of the sky, or of the sun, or of all other things in this world.’”

    These quotations which he attributes to Enoch are not found in the Ethiopic text of the Book of Enoch, upon which our modern translations are based. There are, however, two sufficient reasons to believe that Origen is still quoting from the Book of Enoch. First, notice how Origen mishandled Psalm 139:16, “My eyes have seen your imperfection,” as if to indicate that God had imperfections which could be seen. Psalm 139:16 is more accurately translated, “Mine unformed substance Thine eyes saw.” (YLT) So it is very possible that Origen was simply incorrectly quoting passages that do exist in the Ethiopic text. Second, it is known from the discovery of Hebrew and Aramaic manuscripts of Enoch found in the Dead Sea Scrolls at Qumran that there are large portions of text that are not present in the Ethiopic manuscripts. (See 4Q209 and 4Q211) So it is also possible that he was quoting from portions of Enoch that may have not been translated into the Ethiopic text, and hence have not survived to today.




    Irenaeus, in his work The Proof of the Apostolic Preaching 18, records a condensed retelling of Enoch 6-8. He does this without directly citing the Book of Enoch, yet the citation here is unmistakable.

    “And for a very long while wickedness extended and spread, and reached and laid hold upon the whole race of mankind, until a very small seed of righteousness remained among them: and illicit unions took place upon the earth, since angels were united with the daughters of the race of mankind; and they bore to them sons who for their exceeding greatness were called giants. And the angels brought as presents to their wives teachings of wickedness, in that they brought them the virtues of roots and herbs, dyeing in colours and cosmetics, the discovery of rare substances, love-potions, aversions, amours, concupiscence, constraints of love, spells of bewitchment, and all sorcery and idolatry hateful to God; by the entry of which things into the world evil extended and spread, while righteousness was diminished and enfeebled.”
    The Fruits of Macroevolution are: Atheism, Social Darwinism, Racism, Eugenics and No Moral Absolutes.

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    Justin Marty wrote in his Second Apology
    http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0127.htm

    “But the angels transgressed this appointment, and were captivated by love of women, and begat children who are those that are called demons; and besides, they afterwards subdued the human race to themselves, partly by magical writings, and partly by fears and the punishments they occasioned, and partly by teaching them to offer sacrifices, and incense, and libations, of which things they stood in need after they were enslaved by lustful passions; and among men they sowed murders, wars, adulteries, intemperate deeds, and all wickedness. Whence also the poets and mythologists, not knowing that it was the angels and those demons who had been begotten by them that did these things to men, and women, and cities, and nations, which they related, ascribed them to god himself, and to those who were accounted to be his very offspring, and to the offspring of those who were called his brothers, Neptune and Pluto, and to the children again of these their offspring. For whatever name each of the angels had given to himself and his children, by that name they called them“.

    Justin Marty Second Apology
    The Fruits of Macroevolution are: Atheism, Social Darwinism, Racism, Eugenics and No Moral Absolutes.

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    just made up junk...

    No concern to us
    From the Forum RULES : "As you know, the Walter Martin website takes the position that Mormon theology is not Christian theology. Use of the term "LDS Christian" is inaccurate and misleading, and as such is not acceptable on this board."

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    Quote Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post
    just made up junk...

    No concern to us


    You're wrong.

    Heliocentrism and Macroevolution are "made up junk"
    The Fruits of Macroevolution are: Atheism, Social Darwinism, Racism, Eugenics and No Moral Absolutes.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jude1:3 View Post
    You're wrong.

    Heliocentrism and Macroevolution are "made up junk"
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heliocentrism




    from time to time I notice that some people will attempt to engage with you on a topic....Its then that someone will pull them aside and inform them that you are of the "flat Earth" persuasion.



    Literally you believe the earth is flat.


    (It is felt that once informed it should help people come to understand better where all your ideas come forth from.)
    From the Forum RULES : "As you know, the Walter Martin website takes the position that Mormon theology is not Christian theology. Use of the term "LDS Christian" is inaccurate and misleading, and as such is not acceptable on this board."

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    It blows my mind that the writings of The Church Fathers hold no weight with you. The Book of Enoch refers to "The Son of Man" and it was written before The Lord Jesus Christ was born on earth (Enoch 69:29 and Enoch 71:14, Matthew 19:28, Matthew 25:31-32, John 5:27 and John 3:14)

    Especially in • John 3:14:
    And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up,


    Please research this. I'm truly asking.
    The Fruits of Macroevolution are: Atheism, Social Darwinism, Racism, Eugenics and No Moral Absolutes.

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    Super Moderator alanmolstad's Avatar
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    research eh?

    Let me tell you about that....










    One of the topics I had to study back in Bible School, was the fact that there are many, many pagan sources quoted within the text of the Bible.

    It does not mean for one moment that the Bible writer is saying that the entire pagan source he is quoting a small part of should be assumed to be equal to the bible, but rather what we see is that the Bible writers felt free enough that they took a sentence here or there from many many different places known to their time period in order to prove a point they were making.

    So it's not a big deal that we read within the Bible or within the writings of the early church Fathers about different stories that are actually taken from non-Bible books, (like Enoch) it's to be expected because we do the same thing today!
    When I write about a topic like "The Right To Life" I may pull quotes from many different sources, this does not mean Im endorsing every work of the creator of that source as being on par with Scripture......Im just quoting them because what I quote helps me make a point Im making.
    If I am quoting CNN Im not saying that everything seen on CNN is to always be believed..
    If Im quoting President Clinton or President Trump Im not saying that every word the guys said is to be believed.

    In the same way just because some writer in church history may have quoted the Book Of Enoch it does not mean that we today should jump to the conclusion that the whole book of Enoch stands on equal footing with the Bible.


    We also have to always keep in mind that no single church leader living now or in the past should be allowed to have the authority over us to decide for us what is or is not in our Bible.
    That's what CULTS do,
    The CULTS use the supposed authority of their current or past leaders over members of the CULT to decide for them what they are to believe.




    Now if a person wants to know why the books of the Bible we have now got into the Bible?...then there are many good books and websites that will help you learn why we have ended up with the Bible in it's form, why some books were always accepted, and why some other books were always suspected and finally rejected.
    Last edited by alanmolstad; 07-21-2017 at 06:47 PM.
    From the Forum RULES : "As you know, the Walter Martin website takes the position that Mormon theology is not Christian theology. Use of the term "LDS Christian" is inaccurate and misleading, and as such is not acceptable on this board."

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    Senior Member jude1:3's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post
    , many pagan sources quoted within the text of the Bible.

    So it's not a big deal that we read within the Bible or within the writings of the early church Fathers about different stories that are actually taken from non-Bible books, (like Enoch)

    That's the thing though, It's Not Pagan. It's Pre Antediluvian and Jewish Scripture. The Text existed Before The Lord Jesus Christ was born on earth.
    The Fruits of Macroevolution are: Atheism, Social Darwinism, Racism, Eugenics and No Moral Absolutes.

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    what I had to study in Bible School was the future issue we see here, that I would one day run into people that would hold up the fact that many types of non-canonical sources are quoted in the Bible.

    We were made aware of just how many different places in the Holy Text we will find quotes from all kinds of historical works that are not held by the church as being`inspired.

    Thats the thing.....many people that grasp onto the Book of Enoch just because it gets quoted a bunch of times in church history and suggest it should be included in the Bible have mixed up the concepts of a work being "useful" with being "Inspired"...

    There is no doubt to me that many sources were used by the different writers of the Bible and in church history when they made their points.
    There is no problem to me with the use of quotes from books like Enoch as well as many other books that the church has rejected.
    Thats not an issue because just because a book might not be inspired by the Holy Spirit does not mean it cant be yet useful to the church in some manner.

    So if this or that Christian wants to study the many books that the church has in it's long history that have been always rejected as not inspired?...thats fine.

    But as my Bible School teachers predicted, I do have to point out a few times though the years to people that have jumped to a wrong conclusion based only on the fact that a church father quoted something from a non-Bible source, and so they decided that anything so quoted must mean it's also as equally inspired at any other book in the Bible....


    I tell them that "That dont mean that at all, friend"
    From the Forum RULES : "As you know, the Walter Martin website takes the position that Mormon theology is not Christian theology. Use of the term "LDS Christian" is inaccurate and misleading, and as such is not acceptable on this board."

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    Quote Originally Posted by jude1:3 View Post
    That's the thing though, It's Not Pagan. It's Pre Antediluvian and Jewish Scripture. The Text existed Before The Lord Jesus Christ was born on earth.
    There were many books written in the BC, it doesn't make them the word of God. Besides, the Book of Enoch is not antediluvian, it is post-exilic, and it's not Jewish scripture. The statement quoted by Jude is probably the only antediluvian part of it. Anyone could write a novel in which the setting of the story is antediluvian.
    TD
    Last edited by tdidymas; 07-21-2017 at 10:17 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tdidymas View Post
    The statement quoted by Jude is probably the only antediluvian part of it. TD

    This is Not True.


    • John 3:14
    And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up,

    • Enoch 69:29
    And from henceforth there shall be nothing corruptible;
    For that Son of Man has appeared,
    And has seated himself on the throne of his glory,
    And all evil shall pass away before his face,
    And the word of that Son of Man shall go forth
    And be strong before the Lord of Spirits.
    The Fruits of Macroevolution are: Atheism, Social Darwinism, Racism, Eugenics and No Moral Absolutes.

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    Keep in mind this was written Before Christianity even existed.


    And there I saw the One to Whom belongs the time before time, and His head was white like wool. With Him was another being, whose countenance had the appearance of a man, and his face was full of graciousness, like one of the holy angels. I asked the angel who went with me concerning that son of and who he was, and whence he was, and why he went with the One to Whom belongs the time before time.

    He answered and said to me: 'This is the son of man who has righteousness, with whom dwells righteousness, and who reveals all the treasures of that which is hidden, because the Lord of the spirits has chosen him, and whose lot has the pre-eminence before the Lord of the spirits in uprightness for ever. This son of man whom you have seen shall raise up the kings and the mighty from their seats and the strong from their thrones, and shall loosen the reins of the strong and break the teeth of the sinners.'

    1 Enoch.46.1-4




    And at that hour that Son of Man was named
    In the presence of the Lord of Spirits,
    And his name before the Head of Days.

    Yea, before the sun and the signs were created,
    Before the stars of the heaven were made,
    His name was named before the Lord of Spirits.

    He shall be a staff to the righteous whereon to stay themselves and not fall,
    And he shall be the light of the Gentiles,
    And the hope of those who are troubled of heart.

    All who dwell on earth shall fall down and worship before him,
    And will praise and bless and celebrate with song the Lord of Spirits.

    And for this reason hath he been chosen and hidden before Him,
    Before the creation of the world and for evermore.

    And the wisdom of the Lord of Spirits hath revealed him to the holy and righteous;
    For he hath preserved the lot of the righteous,
    Because they have hated and despised this world of unrighteousness,
    And have hated all its works and ways in the name of the Lord of Spirits:
    For in his name they are saved,
    And according to his good pleasure hath it been in regard to their life.

    1 Enoch.48.2-6
    Last edited by jude1:3; 07-21-2017 at 11:04 PM.
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    And there was great joy among them, and they blessed and honored and exalted, because the name of the Son of Man had been revealed unto them.
    1 Enoch 69:26


    And from that time on there will be nothing that will be destroyed, for he, the Son of Man, has appeared, and sits on the throne of his glory, and all wickedness will disappear before his face and depart; but the word of that Son of Man will be strong before the Lord of the spirits. This is the third Parable of Enoch.
    1 Enoch 69:29



    And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
    • John 3:14

    The people answered him, We have heard out of the law that Christ abideth for ever: and how sayest thou,The Son of man must be lifted up? who is this Son of man?
    • John 12:34
    The Fruits of Macroevolution are: Atheism, Social Darwinism, Racism, Eugenics and No Moral Absolutes.

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    I refer you to my answer above
    From the Forum RULES : "As you know, the Walter Martin website takes the position that Mormon theology is not Christian theology. Use of the term "LDS Christian" is inaccurate and misleading, and as such is not acceptable on this board."

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    Quote Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post
    what I had to study in Bible School was the future issue we see here, that I would one day run into people that would hold up the fact that many types of non-canonical sources are quoted in the Bible.

    We were made aware of just how many different places in the Holy Text we will find quotes from all kinds of historical works that are not held by the church as being`inspired.

    Thats the thing.....many people that grasp onto the Book of Enoch just because it gets quoted a bunch of times in church history and suggest it should be included in the Bible have mixed up the concepts of a work being "useful" with being "Inspired"...

    There is no doubt to me that many sources were used by the different writers of the Bible and in church history when they made their points.
    There is no problem to me with the use of quotes from books like Enoch as well as many other books that the church has rejected.
    Thats not an issue because just because a book might not be inspired by the Holy Spirit does not mean it cant be yet useful to the church in some manner.

    So if this or that Christian wants to study the many books that the church has in it's long history that have been always rejected as not inspired?...thats fine.

    But as my Bible School teachers predicted, I do have to point out a few times though the years to people that have jumped to a wrong conclusion based only on the fact that a church father quoted something from a non-Bible source, and so they decided that anything so quoted must mean it's also as equally inspired at any other book in the Bible....


    I tell them that "That dont mean that at all, friend"
    .................
    From the Forum RULES : "As you know, the Walter Martin website takes the position that Mormon theology is not Christian theology. Use of the term "LDS Christian" is inaccurate and misleading, and as such is not acceptable on this board."

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    Super Moderator alanmolstad's Avatar
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    for a help to anyone interested, I have found a very short recording of the current Bible Answer Man dealing with the question of how we are to view the Book Of Enoch?


    http://www.equip.org/audio/whats-you...n-his-epistle/
    From the Forum RULES : "As you know, the Walter Martin website takes the position that Mormon theology is not Christian theology. Use of the term "LDS Christian" is inaccurate and misleading, and as such is not acceptable on this board."

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    Quote Originally Posted by jude1:3 View Post
    And there was great joy among them, and they blessed and honored and exalted, because the name of the Son of Man had been revealed unto them.
    1 Enoch 69:26


    And from that time on there will be nothing that will be destroyed, for he, the Son of Man, has appeared, and sits on the throne of his glory, and all wickedness will disappear before his face and depart; but the word of that Son of Man will be strong before the Lord of the spirits. This is the third Parable of Enoch.
    1 Enoch 69:29



    And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
    • John 3:14

    The people answered him, We have heard out of the law that Christ abideth for ever: and how sayest thou,The Son of man must be lifted up? who is this Son of man?
    • John 12:34
    You should really listen to Hank's answer in the link that Alan provided (I'll copy it here for your convenience - http://www.equip.org/audio/whats-you...n-his-epistle/)

    Like I showed before, Enoch was written AFTER the Exile, and it is apocalyptic literature, therefore it stands to reason that it would contain phrases already written in existing scripture in eschatological passages of Daniel and Isaiah. But it is fiction, even though it contains truth. Anyone today can write a fiction that contains universal truth, and it happens all the time. That doesn't make it inspired scripture. People were writing fiction since centuries BC that we know of, and we acknowledge it is fiction even though many superstitious people took them as gospel truth, like the writings of Homer, the Vedic texts, and so on. We know that the writings of philosophers like Aristotle and Socrates contain universal truth, but we do not believe those writings to be inspired of God. The Gnostics wrote many things that they thought were inspired of God, (example, the Gospel According to Thomas), and we deny that it is inspired scripture, even though Gnostics accept it as scripture even today. Some people in the R.C.C. are also superstitious enough to accept many unbiblical things because they think apocryphal and pseudoepigraphal writings are equal with scripture, enough to formulate dogmas about it. Many of such people and those in cults will be lost because of dogmas they believe that are unbiblical based on writings and sermons of false ideas, because they are a distraction from the true gospel of Christ. Just because the book of Enoch contains quotes from earlier scripture and from oral tradition, acts like prophecy, and is translated in bonified King James English, doesn't make it inspired of God. Paul quoted from secular philosophy in 1 Corinthians 15:33 and Acts 17:28, and there are other quotes even by Jesus (e.g. Mat. 16:2-3) in which they acknowledge the truthfulness of the statement, but do not acknowledge any inspiration of the source of the statement. It is not any particular statement or phrase that is usable/truthful in the writing that makes a writing inspired, but it is the whole of the writing that makes it a consideration for scripture or not. The Book of Enoch does not meet scrutiny because of the things I mentioned before:

    1. Enoch is clearly post-exilic in text style; my sources put the writing at about 150 BC. Wikipedia states "although modern scholars estimate the older sections (mainly in the Book of the Watchers) to date from about 300 BC, and the latest part (Book of Parables) probably to the first century BC."

    2. Enoch is called pseudoepigrapha because the writer is not Enoch, but claims to be.

    3. Gen. 6:4 says "There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown." which clearly indicates that since the giants (nephilim) were there before the event, they could not have been the offspring of that union. Therefore, the basis of the nephilim origin in Enoch is not Biblical.

    4. There are indications within Enoch that imply its fictional nature, such as: (1) Giants 3000 els in height, which would put them 4500 ft. tall. (2) he saw a vision in the land of Dan, which didn't exist until about 1500 years after Enoch.

    5. The idea of a union between angels and women is problematic in scriptures such as Mat. 22:30 and Heb. 1:5.

    Another pseudoepigraphal writing is the Epistle of Barnabas, in which it actually appears like it could be on the same level of scripture. But because it was not accepted in the early Church, not widely used, etc. it was not accepted in the canon. One can also discern its lack of inspiration compared with the canon of scripture. I recommend reading the 66 books of scripture canon many times to get familiar with real inspiration, and be skeptical of anything that has claims, but lacks the overall inspiration of the whole text.
    TD

  21. #21
    Senior Member jude1:3's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tdidymas View Post
    4. There are indications within Enoch that imply its fictional nature, such as: (1) Giants 3000 els in height, which would put them 4500 ft. tall. (2) he saw a vision in the land of Dan, which didn't exist until about 1500 years after Enoch.
    TD


    I think you guys are wrong.

    Really ask your self how such huge structures and huge stones could have been moved before the use of hydraulic machines. Seriously Though:




    The Fruits of Macroevolution are: Atheism, Social Darwinism, Racism, Eugenics and No Moral Absolutes.

  22. #22
    Senior Member jude1:3's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tdidymas View Post
    it would contain phrases already written in existing scripture in eschatological passages of Daniel and Isaiah.
    TD

    It's actually the other way around. Daniel and Isaiah got it from The Book of Enoch.


    For whoever is ashamed of Me and My words in this adulterous and sinful generation, of him the Son of Man also will be ashamed when He comes in the glory of His Father with the holy angels.
    Mark 8:38
    The Fruits of Macroevolution are: Atheism, Social Darwinism, Racism, Eugenics and No Moral Absolutes.

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    Super Moderator alanmolstad's Avatar
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    From the Forum RULES : "As you know, the Walter Martin website takes the position that Mormon theology is not Christian theology. Use of the term "LDS Christian" is inaccurate and misleading, and as such is not acceptable on this board."

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    Quote Originally Posted by jude1:3 View Post
    It's actually the other way around. Daniel and Isaiah got it from The Book of Enoch.


    For whoever is ashamed of Me and My words in this adulterous and sinful generation, of him the Son of Man also will be ashamed when He comes in the glory of His Father with the holy angels.
    Mark 8:38
    It is already established by authoritative scholars who can translate from ancient languages that Enoch was written 200-300 years AFTER Isaiah and Daniel. Your argument does not stand up to that.

    Incidentally, your feeble attempt at striking fear falls to the ground.
    TD

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    Quote Originally Posted by jude1:3 View Post
    I think you guys are wrong.

    Really ask your self how such huge structures and huge stones could have been moved before the use of hydraulic machines. Seriously Though:




    It's your prerogative to disagree. But what does this brick have to do with the price of tea in China? Either come up with a valid explanation against my internal evidence, or just keep silent.
    TD

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