An all knowing God...(but only propositionally)

[Fig-bearing Thistle]

I recently asked an Evangelical Christian this question regarding the Trinity:

So, you believe that the Trinity has all knowledge 'propositionally', but not all knowledge 'experientially'? Such as experienceing birth, mortality, sin, and death?

To which the person responded: Yes

I suppose all Trinitarians would agree with this: That the Trinity has always had all propositional knowledge, but little-to-no experiential knowledge with things such as creation, atonement, temptation, sin, death, mortality, etc.

Is this right?

[John T]

Hebrews 4:15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.

16 Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.

The person did not remember this Scripture above

[Bat-Man]

Originally Posted by John T

Hebrews 4:15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.

16 Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.

The person did not remember this Scripture above

Can you see how saying our Savior was without sin could be understood to mean that he doesn't know what it is like to actually experience sin, though ?

How could our Savior know what it is like to sin if he has never experienced sin, personally ?

There is a way and I know what it is, but I'd like to see if you know, as well.

... and while you're at it, I'd also like you to tell me how God would know, from his own personal experiences:

What is it like to be created from the perspective of the created ?

... rather than from the perspective of the one doing the creating ?

What is it like to be atoned FOR, rather than being the one doing the atoning ?

Temptation... that's an easy one. He was tempted, but he never sinned.

Death... also easy. He actually died, and then he rose from the dead.

Mortality... also an easy one. He died, therefore he was mortal.

The question is:

Has God actually experienced everything that we have experienced or will experience, personally (aka subjectively), or does his knowledge of some things come in some way other than from his own subjective experiences ?

[Fig-bearing Thistle]

Originally Posted by John T

Hebrews 4:15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.

16 Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.

The person did not remember this Scripture above

Yes, Jesus DID experience these things. I agree. But what about before Jesus came? Isn't it true that there was no experiential knowledge of mortality, temptation, discernment, sin, and death, etc. residing with the Trinity?

[TimLScheffer]

Fig... you ask the question,

"Can God make a Rock so Big he Can't lift it"

My God Fig... can not Sin...

But your God Fig... was once a Man... and thus once a sinner... Just like us.

The Mormon God was once a man... on the planet of another god... and the Mormon God earned Godhood and got his own creation... and had Spirit Children... like the brothers Jesus and Satan... and now he is playing out a new season... So, Fig... The Mormon God has experience all these things experiencially...

[Fig-bearing Thistle]

Originally Posted by TimLScheffer

Fig... you ask the question,

"Can God make a Rock so Big he Can't lift it"

My God Fig... can not Sin...

But your God Fig... was once a Man... and thus once a sinner... Just like us.

The Mormon God was once a man... on the planet of another god... and the Mormon God earned Godhood and got his own creation... and had Spirit Children... like the brothers Jesus and Satan... and now he is playing out a new season... So, Fig... The Mormon God has experience all these things experiencially...

A Swing and a Miss.

Tim, please don't respond to this thread any more, as you have shown that you are unable to address the question.

[Bat-Man]

Originally Posted by Fig-bearing Thistle

A Swing and a Miss.

Tim, please don't respond to this thread any more, as you have shown that you are unable to address the question.

I agree. Let's just answer the question as Tim would answer it, for Tim, from the personal perspective of Tim.

You, Fig, asked a question which I will rephrase:

Is it true that God our Father, his Son Jesus Christ, and/or the Holy Spirit had no personal experience or knowledge of what it is like to be mortal, or to be tempted, or to discern between good and evil, or what it feels like to commit sin, and die, etc, before the person we now know as Jesus Christ was born as a mortal on this planet we call Earth ?

Or, as another rephrase of that question:

Is the true that the only way God our Father in heaven knows what it is like to be mortal, or to be tempted, or to discern between good and evil, or what it feels like to sin, and die, etc, is by God our Father somehow gaining that knowledge through Jesus Christ rather than through his own personal (aka subjective) experiences ?

I believe Tim would answer that question with a Yes, Fig.

... if Tim ever felt inclined to answer that question, personally.

[Fig-bearing Thistle]

Originally Posted by Bat-Man

I agree. Let's just answer the question as Tim would answer it, for Tim, from the personal perspective of Tim.

You, Fig, asked a question which I will rephrase:

Is it true that God our Father, his Son Jesus Christ, and/or the Holy Spirit had no personal experience or knowledge of what it is like to be mortal, or to be tempted, or to discern between good and evil, or what it feels like to commit sin, and die, etc, before the person we now know as Jesus Christ was born as a mortal on this planet we call Earth ?

Or, as another rephrase of that question:

Is the true that the only way God our Father in heaven knows what it is like to be mortal, or to be tempted, or to discern between good and evil, or what it feels like to sin, and die, etc, is by God our Father somehow gaining that knowledge through Jesus Christ rather than through his own personal (aka subjective) experiences ?

I believe Tim would answer that question with a Yes, Fig.

... if Tim ever felt inclined to answer that question, personally.

Interesting answer from Tim. Should I quote him as saying that? He puts quotes in our mouths that we did not actually utter.

[Father_JD]

I suppose all Trinitarians would agree with this: That the Trinity has always had all propositional knowledge, but little-to-no experiential knowledge with things such as creation, atonement, temptation, sin, death, mortality, etc.

Creation: experiential knowledge by Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.
Atonement: experiential knowledge by the Son.
Temptation: experiential knowledge by the Son.
Sin: NO experiential knowledge period.
Death: experiential knowledge by the Son.
Mortality: experiential knowledge by the Son.

It must be pointed out that as an OMNISCIENT and OMNIPOTENT DEITY, God understands the above in ways you can't even begin to imagine. You imply that God must somehow be deficient NOT being the author of sin.

[Fig-bearing Thistle]

Originally Posted by Father_JD

Creation: experiential knowledge by Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.
Atonement: experiential knowledge by the Son.
Temptation: experiential knowledge by the Son.
Sin: NO experiential knowledge period.
Death: experiential knowledge by the Son.
Mortality: experiential knowledge by the Son.

It must be pointed out that as an OMNISCIENT and OMNIPOTENT DEITY, God understands the above in ways you can't even begin to imagine. You imply that God must somehow be deficient NOT being the author of sin.

For each of these things you mentioned, there was a 'BEFORE'.

So, are you making the case that God is actually progressing in experience?

[Father_JD]

Originally Posted by Fig-bearing Thistle

For each of these things you mentioned, there was a 'BEFORE'.

So, are you making the case that God is actually progressing in experience?

Not at all. God doesn't have to SIN to understand or experience "sin" as if He's somehow "deficient" in either knowledge or experience as you'd make Him to be.

Your "god" is TOO SMALL, Fig.

[Fig-bearing Thistle]

Originally Posted by Father_JD

Not at all. God doesn't have to SIN to understand or experience "sin" as if He's somehow "deficient" in either knowledge or experience as you'd make Him to be.

Your "god" is TOO SMALL, Fig.

So accordingly, God had no experience with creation, until He created. No experience with life, until he created it, no experience with temptation until he was tempted 2000 years ago, no experience with fatigue until he experienced it 2000 years ago, etc?

[Mark Beesley]

What are the scriptural references to support a doctrine that God is:
1. Omniscient;
2. Omnipotent; and
2. Omnipresent?

[Father_JD]

Originally Posted by Fig-bearing Thistle

So accordingly, God had no experience with creation, until He created. No experience with life, until he created it, no experience with temptation until he was tempted 2000 years ago, no experience with fatigue until he experienced it 2000 years ago, etc?

Your questions are exceedingly curious albeit somewhat interesting, Fig.

I'll let God answer for Himself, Fig if you don't mind:


Isa 55:8 ¶ For my thoughts [are] not your thoughts, neither [are] your ways my ways, saith the LORD.

Isa 55:9 For [as] the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.


God TRANSCENDS (a word that is virtually lost on LDS, I concede) any possible understanding of "experience", Fig.

Now the Mormon deity could NOT know these things UNTIL he personally "experienced" them...the eternally-progressing deity in which you believe in, but I do NOT.

[Fig-bearing Thistle]

Originally Posted by Father_JD

Your questions are exceedingly curious albeit somewhat interesting, Fig.

I'll let God answer for Himself, Fig if you don't mind:


Isa 55:8 ¶ For my thoughts [are] not your thoughts, neither [are] your ways my ways, saith the LORD.

Isa 55:9 For [as] the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.


God TRANSCENDS (a word that is virtually lost on LDS, I concede) any possible understanding of "experience", Fig.

How convenient to chuck it all into the "catch-all" bag of mysteries.

I am grateful that God has revealed many things, which things must forever remain mysteries to those who stop their ears.

[Father_JD]

LOL. I just let God speak for Himself, Fig.

It's ALWAYS you guys who must resort to "special pleading" when a Biblical text can NOT contextually support your contentions.

[Fig-bearing Thistle]

Originally Posted by Father_JD

LOL. I just let God speak for Himself, Fig.

You do? You actually LET God speak?

As long as God doesn't say anything more than what's already on the printed page, that is.

[Father_JD]

LOL. And you IGNORE what God HAS SAID which is before you in the pages of the Bible.

[Fig-bearing Thistle]

Originally Posted by Father_JD

LOL. And you IGNORE what God HAS SAID which is before you in the pages of the Bible.

Kind of like the Jews accusing the Christians of ignoring what God HAS SAID which is before you in the pages of the Hebrew Bible.

Both accusations born from ignorance.

[Father_JD]

Originally Posted by Fig-bearing Thistle

Kind of like the Jews accusing the Christians of ignoring what God HAS SAID which is before you in the pages of the Hebrew Bible.

False ****ogy since BOTH Testaments are GOD'S WORD.

Both accusations born from ignorance.

No, it's your having to invoke extra-biblical "revelation" to defend your positions. You can NOT defend them CONTEXTUALLY from the Bible and ONLY THE BIBLE, Fig.

When are you gonna acknowledge what all Christians on this board know??

[Fig-bearing Thistle]

[QUOTE=Father_JD;23026]False ****ogy since BOTH Testaments are GOD'S WORD.[/qutoe]

Is that what the Jews believe today?

Originally Posted by Father_JD

No, it's your having to invoke extra-biblical "revelation" to defend your positions. You can NOT defend them CONTEXTUALLY from the Bible and ONLY THE BIBLE, Fig.

When are you gonna acknowledge what all Christians on this board know??

Well duh. The LDS Doctrines didn't emerge from centuries of argument hashing over the Bible. Everything we believe regarding the Gospel of Jesus Christ has it's origins in "revelation".

[Father_JD]

False ****ogy since BOTH Testaments are GOD'S WORD.

Is that what the Jews believe today?

Of course not...but do YOU understand WHY the Jews for the most part rejected Jesus as "Messiah"? Do you KNOW what the Bible says regarding this??

Well duh. The LDS Doctrines didn't emerge from centuries of argument hashing over the Bible. Everything we believe regarding the Gospel of Jesus Christ has it's origins in "revelation".

What you think or feel is "revelation". Because Mormon doctrine CONFLICTS with the Bible, that's how one can OBJECTIVELY discern that your "revelation" did NOT come from God.

[Fig-bearing Thistle]

JD: False ****ogy since BOTH Testaments are GOD'S WORD.

Fig: Is that what the Jews believe today? [That the N.T. is also God's word]?

Originally Posted by Father_JD

Of course not...but do YOU understand WHY the Jews for the most part rejected Jesus as "Messiah"? Do you KNOW what the Bible says regarding this??

I was taught that the Jews expected a military-type deliverer. Jesus didn't fit that expectation. So they're still looking for him.

But the fact remains, that the Jews have their reasons and their apologetics, and their arguments that discount and discredit the N.T., and make it look like it is in conflict with the Jewish Bible. Just like you do for the message of the Restored Gospel.

[Father_JD]

Sounds nice on paper, Fig...but ultimately still a FALSE ****OGY.

Why? Because I studied at a Rabbinical school in Jerusalem. Unlike YOU, I actually KNOW their arguments and you don't have the faintest idea.

No comparison, dude. No comparison.

[Fig-bearing Thistle]

Originally Posted by Father_JD

Sounds nice on paper, Fig...but ultimately still a FALSE ****OGY.

Why? Because I studied at a Rabbinical school in Jerusalem. Unlike YOU, I actually KNOW their arguments and you don't have the faintest idea.

No comparison, dude. No comparison.

OK, WHY (according to the Rabbinical School) did (and do) the Jews reject Christ? And the reason that you give cannot have anything to do with what I said regarding Jesus not fitting the mold of what the Jews expected, based on their interpretation of the Old Testament. It has to be an entirely different reason.

And then, after you have stated the entirely different reason why the Jews reject Christ as their Savior, then you must explain why their not accepting the N.T. is vastly different than why you don't accept the BoM.