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Thread: Any heathen can start a religion

  1. #51

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    so when a person asks, "Can you be saved without reading the Bible?"..the answer is that you must hear what is in the Bible.

    So in a situation where you are blind, or aged, or sick, or even on the cross about to die, you still have the opportunity to believe in the Jesus of the Bible...be it from listening to someone teach of Jesus, watching a movie, etc. The key thing is that what you hear, see, or whatever and then believe in has to be in agreement with the Bible.


    This idea is in agreement with what Dr Walter Martin also teaches , in that if you are truly searching for God you will find him...and the light you have will be brighter as you draw closer and closer to the Jesus of the Bible.
    Last edited by alan; 11-01-2019 at 06:01 AM.

  2. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by alan View Post
    so when a person asks, "Can you be saved without reading the Bible?"..the answer is that you must hear what is in the Bible.
    So in a situation where you are blind, or aged, or sick, or even on the cross about to die, you still have the opportunity to believe in the Jesus of the Bible...be it from listening to someone teach of Jesus, watching a movie, etc. The key thing is that what you hear, see, or whatever and then believe in has to be in agreement with the Bible.

    This idea is in agreement with what Dr Walter Martin also teaches , in that if you are truly searching for God you will find him...and the light you have will be brighter as you draw closer and closer to the Jesus of the Bible.
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    And you are still wrong, you just do not get it!
    The irony is that you require a lot of works through hearing and reading, and only give lip service to a “faith” and yet denying the power there of.

    You talk about a physical hearing and seeing, yet without the spiritual hearing and seeing, the former is useless. That is why when Christ said the “Word of God” is meant for only those with ears to hear and eyes to see, he was saying personal revelation from God has to go accompany any study of the Bible.
    Note how whenever you talk about comparing what an individual has read or heard about the gospel, you talk about comparing it with what either you and your personal interpretation, or Walter Martin’s. Nowhere have you even left room to compare it with what God Himself is saying to you. He is telling you the correct interpretation, you are just listening with the wrong ears. The spiritual can only be understood through the spiritual.

  3. #53

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    people can claim all kinds of things..

    People can claim that they have a new teaching and a new revelation from God....and thats fine...good for them..

    All we need to do is to take their "new teaching" and compare it to what we already have in the Scriptures to see if it is in agreement?

    If it is in agreement with the Bible?..then we can take a look at what this new idea is.

    But if it is in clear disagreement?...then its sent into the trash, because we dont have even one second of free time for such foolishness.


    The key thing to remember is that nothing,,,nothing big,,,nothing little, or nothing in between...nothing you might hear from a booming voice from Heaven, or a soft whisper in your heart, can actually be from God if it is in disagreement with the Bible....




    This way of learning what to believe and what to avoid is based on the same way they put the new ideas of Paul to the test by listening to what Paul said and then comparing it to the scriptures!

    This also is just how I ask people to put my ideas and new revelations to the test.

    Im never going to ask you to test my words any differently than what they tested the words of Paul by....

  4. #54

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    and......all what I say is in total agreement with the verse that says -


    " Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, for many false prophets have gone out into the world"


    This is why when I was asked a question like - "Alan if you were 100% sure that God spoke to you with a new teaching would you believe it?" that my answer was - "Not if that teaching was in disagreement with the Scriptures"

  5. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by alan View Post
    and......all what I say is in total agreement with the verse that says -


    " Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, for many false prophets have gone out into the world"


    This is why when I was asked a question like - "Alan if you were 100% sure that God spoke to you with a new teaching would you believe it?" that my answer was - "Not if that teaching was in disagreement with the Scriptures"
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    And my response is one that you constantly refuse to answer because it would destroy your point/theology...

    "Whose interpretation of the scriptures should we be in agreement with?"

  6. #56

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    Quote Originally Posted by theway View Post
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    And my response is one that you constantly refuse to answer because it would destroy your point/theology...

    "Whose interpretation of the scriptures should we be in agreement with?"



    ACTS 8 verse34

    "And the eunuch said to Philip, “About whom, I ask you, does the prophet say this, about himself or about someone else?” 35 Then Philip opened his mouth, and said, "Whose interpretation?"



    Then Philip went on to answer that before you can ever hope to study and learn squat about God you have to first join the correct church and then let that church decide on what you believe for you...

    or......


    what happened in the story was that a person was seeking answers about the Lord, and the Lord sent over someone to get the ball started, but that when the eunuch made it out of the water he found that he was alone again, and likely had just as many questions if not more than when he went down into the water,,
    But the difference now is that he had taken his first real step.

    As Walter Martin says, if we respond to the light we receive we will find that that light grows brighter and brighter.,

  7. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by alan View Post
    ACTS 8 verse34

    "And the eunuch said to Philip, “About whom, I ask you, does the prophet say this, about himself or about someone else?” 35 Then Philip opened his mouth, and said, "Whose interpretation?"

    Then Philip went on to answer that before you can ever hope to study and learn squat about God you have to first join the correct church and then let that church decide on what you believe for you...
    or......
    what happened in the story was that a person was seeking answers about the Lord, and the Lord sent over someone to get the ball started, but that when the eunuch made it out of the water he found that he was alone again, and likely had just as many questions if not more than when he went down into the water,,
    But the difference now is that he had taken his first real step.
    As Walter Martin says, if we respond to the light we receive we will find that that light grows brighter and brighter.,
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    You have refused to answer the question once again Alan...

    “Whose interpretation of the scriptures should we be in agree with?”

  8. #58

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    "what happened in the story was that a person was seeking answers about the Lord, and the Lord sent over someone to get the ball started, but that when the eunuch made it out of the water he found that he was alone again, and likely had just as many questions if not more than when he went down into the water,,
    But the difference now is that he had taken his first real step."

  9. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by alan View Post
    "what happened in the story was that a person was seeking answers about the Lord, and the Lord sent over someone to get the ball started, but that when the eunuch made it out of the water he found that he was alone again, and likely had just as many questions if not more than when he went down into the water,,
    But the difference now is that he had taken his first real step."
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    You are still evading both questions...

    "Can a person be saved without the scriptures to check against?"

    and...

    “Whose interpretation of the scriptures should we be in agreement with?”

  10. #60

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    Quote Originally Posted by theway View Post
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    "Can a person be saved without the scriptures to check against?"





    as I said....


    The answer I have for you is...




    The key thing to remember is that nothing,,,nothing big,,,nothing little, or nothing in between...nothing you might hear from a booming voice from Heaven, or a soft whisper in your heart, can actually be from God if it is in disagreement with the Bible....
    Last edited by alan; 11-06-2019 at 06:06 PM.

  11. #61

  12. #62

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    Quote Originally Posted by theway View Post
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    “Whose interpretation of the scriptures should we be in agreement with?”

    and as I said in my answer to this question


    The following,,,



    What happened in the story was that a person was seeking answers about the Lord, and the Lord sent over someone to get the ball started.

    Yet at the end when the eunuch made it up out of the water he found that he was alone again and likely had just as many questions if not more than when he went down into the water.

    But the difference now is that he had taken his first real step.

    As Walter Martin says, if we respond to the light we receive we will find that that light grows brighter and brighter

  13. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by alan View Post
    The key thing to remember is that nothing,,,nothing big,,,nothing little, or nothing in between...nothing you might hear from a booming voice from Heaven, or a soft whisper in your heart, can actually be from God if it is in disagreement with the Bible....
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    Once again you did not answer my question!

    “Can a man be saved without the scriptures to check against?”

    And...

    “Whose interpretation of the scriptures should we be in agreement with?”

    If you don’t know the answers, or if you are too afraid to answer... I get it... you’re no different than Walter Martin and the rest. However, if you guys are not qualified or unwilling to give an answer, I don’t think you should be here preaching to, or criticizing others.... especially to those that do have the answers.

  14. #64

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    "guys?


    I'm now a plural?

  15. #65

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    Here is the answer...

    Nothing you can think you have received, be it from a teacher you have had for many years, or from a family member, or from a really cool testimony , or even be it from a booming voice from the sky , can be in disagreement with the scriptures.

    Now as Walter Martin says in the video, the Bible does not say at any place that a person is sent to Hell because they never heard of Jesus.
    Walter goes on to say in the video that a person who never hears of the news of Jesus still is judged by the light he has received.

    Walter goes on to say that the Bible teaches that there are things about the invisible God that we Christians believe in that are yet found evidence of in the things that are around us.

    This is why the Bible tells us that no person can claim total ignorance....for we all have received this light that is found in the world that points to our creator.

    This is why the Bible says that if you look for the Lord you will find him.

    This brings us to the same stories of both Paul and of Philip that I have wrote here about, and how they connect to our conversation.

    In the case of Paul, it shows us that Paul's words had to be tested.

    The people that put his words to the test are said to us to be the better example of how we are to treat the teachings about God that are new to us.

    We are to test them,,,every day....day after day...and the standard we are to use are the Scriptures.
    This means when we hear a report of some guy who claims, "I have seen a vision, I have seen God, I have received a new teaching!" we are to just smile,....and then put such claims to the TEST!


    That is what we are taught to do....


    Now as for the story of Philip, I wrote about it to show that not every question should be expected to be answered just because we asked it.
    I talked about the person in this bible story who was seeking truth, and yet was now going away from the Holy City with still unanswered questions about God and the Bible...still with questions even after making this long journey.

    Yes, clearly his heart was ready to receive the Good News about the Christian message, but he had many questions about the text he was reading.

    In response to this the Lord sent one person over to talk to him.
    One person...
    Not a church...
    Not a whole new bible translation
    Not a program...

    Just a single guy that he bumped into along the way.

    The core of their discussion was the scriptures...

    I also point out that when the person had been baptized he had to have as many questions about what to believe as he did before he went down into the water!....yet he was again alone.

    No teacher with all the answers.
    No church with open arms
    No magic new bible flopping down from heaven


    So what was different?
    Why is this story important?

    What was changed?....

    The change is to the heart of the person, for he had now taken his first step.


    "But Alan, he didn't get all his questions answered?"

    ....."No he didn't....he likely had even more now!"


    "Why didn't God tell him what church to join?..or what translation of the Bible to use?...or what interpretation to believe in?"
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    Here is my answer to that -

    The other day i was talking to my wife about what color to paint the kitchen?
    We had been struggling for months with the different color chips and different samples of what the paint could look like.
    But we had decided to make up our minds and order the paint color that morning.

    As I listened to my wife I stood at the window and looked out at the backyard where my dog was sleeping.
    It looked so peaceful....
    Then at the same moment that my wife asked me for my thoughts on the final color to order?..I saw a skunk walk out from behind a fence and walk out into the middle of the backyard.

    I .....watched with interest.......

    I looked at my dog that was still sleeping.....Oh good!

    But the skunk was walking ever so slowly across the yard that I could feel my heart beating as I knew that if my dog woke up and spotted the skunk, that my whole summer would be shot as the smell of a skunk that has sprayed in the backyard of a house can take months to fade......

    But my wife thinks I have not heard her ask about the paint color, so she asks again a bit louder...

    I think now that she must have thought I did not have an answer...she may have thought I was unable to answer her question about the paint color?...perhaps I was afraid?....unqualified?....


    In truth she asks a reasonable question...and thinking back on it I did have an answer..a good answer...a perfect answer...and I was about to share it with her.

    But I did not...

    It just in the context her question was not really a question i considered worth going into at that moment...

    There were other issues the person asking the question might want to worry about first...
    (even if they dont know it yet)
    Last edited by alan; 11-08-2019 at 08:49 AM.

  16. #66

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    When the heart is ready.....
    (a true story by Alan Molstad)


    It was back in the early 1990s and I was living in a small town outside the Seattle area.
    One day I was under my car changing oil when I heard the voice of a gentleman asking me some question about the future?
    I came out from under my car and there standing before me were 3 people.
    A man about my age, his wife, and a little young girl I took to be their daughter.

    I noticed that the man held a briefcase...so "Clearly a Jehovah's Witness" I thought to myself.

    Because I was covered in dirt and oil, and likely smelled bad from working on the car all morning, I was about to dismiss my visitors with the normal, "Im not interested" conversation ending.

    But as I looked at the 3 of them, my heart felt pity for what they were doing and how mixed up they had allowed themselves to become, and so I decided to try something new.
    I invited them back next week.

    They were very surprised at my invitation to meet the following week, and the date was set.


    In that week I got out all my books and tapes on how to deal with a JW and I really practiced and practiced what i would say and I have all the Bible texts I wanted to use listed in the order I felt the most powerful.

    The meeting :
    They showed up on time,,,,and we sat down in my living room and we had a long conversation where I allowed them to put on their presentation without interrupting them, and then I spoke.

    I went over the Bible verses , I said every word I had practiced.

    We kinda hit a brick wall with each other, and the meeting ended.

    At the door I did two things-
    #1 - I handed them a few photo copies that I had made from some of their old Watchtowers, and
    #2 - I invited them back the next week to continue our conversation.

    a week came and went.

    During this 2nd week I really dug into the Bible, and I had a whole new bunch of verses to read to them.
    I also made a few phone calls and talked with a few former JWs and got their advice on how to deal with my new JW friends.

    The 2nd meeting:
    Again they showed up right on time, but this time they had left their daughter with a sitter.
    This next meeting they seemed different, and the things that said to me seemed to be just stuff they were quoting and not stuff that they actually knew much about.

    As our meeting went along we opened things up and we asked questions for each other, and I asked about this new stuff they were talking about?>>>"Where did you get that stuff?" I asked.

    The man answered that right after our first meeting they had returned to the Kingdom Hall and had a meeting with the elder .
    And he also told me that during the week he had many of the elders of his church calling him or stopping by to help him get prepared for our meeting.

    again the meeting seemed to run smack into another brick wall and we all stood up and walked to the door.
    At the door I got an idea...I decided that it was now time for me to travel to his house rather than always haveing the JW come to mine.
    So I suggested this idea.

    They were again shocked at my suggestion.
    I was told that in all their history they had never heard of a Christian wanting to visit the home of a JW.
    But because it was their turn , (and I pointed this out to them a few times) they did agree and I got their address for our next meeting.
    as they left the house I again handed them a few more photo copies of past watchtowers.

    a week came and went...

    The 3rd and final meeting:
    I showed up early....
    I had my own little briefcase , and I had to filled with all kinds of things and about 6 to 8 different bible translations.
    I was ready!

    It was a smaller home, but well maintained.
    We sat in the living room.
    It was at this final meeting where both sides got a chance to say whatever they wanted, and our conversation strayed all over the place.

    They did ask a few questions about where I got the photo copies?
    This was new.

    This was about the first time they had showed any interest in that part of our meeting.

    I just happened, (mostly by accident), to have in my briefcase the real old Watchtower that I have given them a photocopy of.
    I reached down and took the Watchtower out and showed it to them.
    They were shocked that I had such an old, real Watchtower at ( It was about 20 years old)....but they did read parts of it with interest.

    Now as our meeting ended the man said something abut needing to get ready for dinner and something about that another older daughter that was due.
    So I took that as a hint to get going.

    But as I went out the door I stopped and once again handed them the last few photo copies I had for them.


    About a year goes by.
    Then another, or more...


    [ The next part of the story takes place in our church in Redmond Wa. ]

    My wife and I were just killing time out of the lobby of our church waiting for the first service to end when out of the blue I hear my name?

    I turned and saw, (to my shock), my JW friend with his family?

    I really did not know what to think...>?
    Were they here for something?>..

    Where they lost?

    I did not have a clue.

    Then my JW friend asked me some type of question about how i knew to come there that day to see him baptized?
    I had no clue what he was talking about???
    But I answered something,,and then I asked how things went?

    It was a weird question to ask, but I was clue free as to what to say to the guy.

    This was when he told me that he had just been baptized that morning into our church!
    He must have thought I had come to see this, (when actually I had no idea), and that I was waiting in the loby to talk with him.

    I asked a few more question and I learned what had been the big thing that had changed his heart....it was the photocopies.

    Yes, the bunch of photocopies that I handed out after each of our meeting, mostly just as an after thought, had been the key thing that got him and his family out of the JW religion.

    He told me that after each of our meetings his older daughter who was very active in the Kingdom hall would come over to their house and right away dig into the photocopies that i had given them.

    She at first doubted them...at first she was sure they were all fake, or that they were taken out of context.
    But as time went on, she started to see how the photocopies were real, and they proved a true history about the JW org that was hidden to them.

    The key thing that really proved the photocopies were real was that one single old Watchtower I had given them.

    Once they saw that the photocopies were real, this gave them a new set of eyes to view the whole history of their religion, and suddenly it looked to them a lot like something that one guy just dreamed up on his own.


    I never saw my old JW friend after that day...
    I had moved within a year of that due to my work, and so that is the end of the story I guess..

    But there is one important lesson I took from this whole encounter.

    I was so concerned with learning the right bible verses, and practicing what I would say, and having the right answer to every question.
    I had felt at the time that the key thing in outreach to the world of the non-Christian CULTS is to be prepared.

    To know the Bible
    To have every answer to the questions asked by the member of a CULT
    To have everything down pat,,,every fact...every verse,,,,every Hebrew word correctly translated..
    To practice, practice, practice, until I could lead a person to Christ in my sleep.

    But thats not how it went.

    Turns out all that stuff was rather a moot point.

    Yes, God did use me, but not at all as I planed for.

    In the story of the salvation of this family, my only part was to deliver some paperwork.

    Paperwork I just dismissed as a afterthought...just something to hand out to them at the end of my epic presentation.







    so?
    So what is this story about?

    Why did I write it and post it here on the Walter Martin Forum?


    Its a response to people that always will try to cast doubt on the work of others to lead being to Christ.

    There will always be detractors,,,,these are the people that want to get others to doubt their importance in the work of the Great Commission.

    I cant tell you the number of times I have seen members of a cult point fingers and say, "However, if you guys are not qualified ..." in the hop of quenching the Spirit of they who labor in this important ministry.

    My response is to point out the fact that the way God has used me is not at all as I might have thought was how it was done.
    God has his own ideas.

    There was a great victory in the life of my old JW friend, and I look forward to entering into the Kingdom one day and seeing him and his family there, and perhaps many more that were also saved through the changed life of my friend.

    But truly God gets all the credit for this victory, all I did was show up on time with the paperwork...

    So have courage my brothers and sisters in this type of outreach to the world of the CULTS, you dont have to be an expert to help change a life.
    You dont have to know all the answers.

    You dont have to have a perfect testimony

    You dont have to have a photographic memory.

    You dont have to be good at playing "Bible Ping-Pong"



    Because, as in my own case, sometimes all you need to be able to do is hit "PRINT".....


    ......or "enter".




    Sometimes all you have to do is show up, and be willing to have a conversation with a member of a CULT....

    Remember its not "we" who do the work of saving people, its the Holy Spirit.


    The person trapped inside a CULT like the Mormon Church, while far from the truth, are yet never far from our Lord.
    And it is the work of our Lord to both spread the seed of the Gospel, as well as to make the ground ready to receive that seed.

    The fact that you might be currently dealing with a Mormon may well mean that the good Lord has correctly prepared the heart of that Mormon to now receive the seed of the Good News that we will share with them.


    Fear not, for He is with us to the end of time!
    Last edited by alan; 11-08-2019 at 10:38 AM.

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