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Thread: Who is Highest in the Trinity?

  1. #1
    ActRaiser
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    Default Who is Highest in the Trinity?

    I think that Jesus is highest in the Trinity. On the other hand, there is a Bible verse which seems to indicate that in Revelation, Jesus will give his authority over to the Father.

    Another Bible verse seems to indicate that Jesus is greater than the Father. 'He who is greatest is he who serves." On numerous occasions Jesus speaks of the Father having greater authority.

    (However this was on Earth at the time.)

  2. #2
    Columcille
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    Quote Originally Posted by ActRaiser View Post
    I think that Jesus is highest in the Trinity. On the other hand, there is a Bible verse which seems to indicate that in Revelation, Jesus will give his authority over to the Father.

    Another Bible verse seems to indicate that Jesus is greater than the Father. 'He who is greatest is he who serves." On numerous occasions Jesus speaks of the Father having greater authority.

    (However this was on Earth at the time.)
    To me, it is like saying which organ is more important, the brain or the heart? Without each other, neither organ is really important. The mystery of the Trinity is that it is and cannot fully be explained in direct terms, else it would no longer be a mystery. It would be difficult to scan all the verses in the bible that relate all the various aspects of the Trinity, yet I believe Walter Martin has done a very good *** in presenting it in the audio addressed for the Jehovah Witnesses. The problem with presenting it in the forum, is that the opposing side will never gain closure on any one aspect of the Trinity and jump from aspect to aspect until it comes full circle again. So I am reluctant to just dive in and try to demonstrate their equality. I would rather prefer to discuss particular p***ages as Philippians 2.6-11 or even several verses found in John 1. Trinitarians do not hold that there is such a heirarchy of persons, but rather that ***les only demonstrate in human terms relational aspects of God to us and within the nature of God. Hence, we do not see the term "Son of God" in the Old Testament, with the exception of perhaps a few Messianic prophecies that allude about the coming Messiah's nature. At any rate, it was John who stated about the Word becoming flesh and dwelling among us. It is at that point from which we finally recognize Father, Son, and Holy Spirit; whereas before it was Father, Word, and Spirit. All three acting in unison, with the purpose of love, to bring about the reconcilation of man to God. Such salvation cannot come from an angel, cannot come from a God who has multiple personalities (I speak of the modalists in mind where there is only one personality that is play pretending by speaking to himself).

  3. #3
    jean
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    Quote Originally Posted by ActRaiser View Post
    I think that Jesus is highest in the Trinity. On the other hand, there is a Bible verse which seems to indicate that in Revelation, Jesus will give his authority over to the Father.

    Another Bible verse seems to indicate that Jesus is greater than the Father. 'He who is greatest is he who serves." On numerous occasions Jesus speaks of the Father having greater authority.

    (However this was on Earth at the time.)
    ActR,
    The Trinity is three persons, one God.
    The Father is God. Gal.1:1
    The son is God. Jn.1:1
    The Holy Spirit is God. Acts 5:3-4
    Co-equal. One God. Isa.43:10-11, Mal.3:6-7

    Jesus is God robed in flesh.
    The Trinity is also a mystery. We can't understand it fully.
    We have the scriptures that reveals part of this mystery, from there we walk by faith.
    Please read the above p***ages.

    God bless,
    jean





    There is one God

  4. #4
    Senior Member johnd's Avatar
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    I do not wish to inject personal opinion into pristine doctrine (namely because it sullies the appearance of that pristine doctrine in the minds of followers or those who are considering conversion... opinions become discussions, discussions become beliefs, beliefs become traditions and touted as authoritative, churches split, denominations form, and the truth is that much more buried behind this gobbledygook.

    Still, I offer an idea that occurred to me... from an old Greg Koukl Stand to Reason broadcast in which he stated he believes God (because he is omniscient) does not think.

    Let that sink in a moment.

    I rebuffed it in my mind the same as you are doing now. Alknowingness... means God knows all things past present future PLUS all the variables given the limited sovereignty he has given man. It was then that I realized Greg must be addressing God's existence on a much higher plain than man realizes. And that his statement was abrupt to get out attention but that he was saying God does not think like man thinks. Our thinking processes are to get us through time and eternity with the limitations of thought we possess and the limited sight.

    It then occurred to me that the emptying of self Jesus went through is thought to have only taken place in the incarnation... but what if he came down (from "heaven" is the language used), to our level mentally speaking as far back as Genesis 1? Temporal thinking as opposed to eternal steady state alknowing. In order to deal with us. Not to say he did not have access to both... and the Holy Spirit too would have to have access to temporal thinking processes in order to deal with us...

    But the Father who has had aparently the least dealings with humanity of the three in the Godhead (taking verses like John 6:46 to heart)... would that not suggest he remained in the higher eternal alknowing state and therefore is the final authority, the "anchor" (for lack of a better word) back to the eternal alknowing state... and therefore the Greatest in that he is the one of the three coequals who is in the pristine state of Godhood (as in eternity before anyone or anything other than God was created to exist).

    Greatest btw does not mean best or better.

    Each has a role in salvation. And each role is different. And each role has a different level of suffering.

    Chestnuts to chew on.
    The Bible is its own best commentary.
    Prophecy is the word of God
    which sometimes speaks of future... sometimes of the present... sometimes of the past.
    A prophet is the tool God uses.
    It's not about the prophet, but about the God who uses the prophet to speak his word...

  5. #5
    Columcille
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    JohnD,
    One of the aspects of thought is also communication. God the Father communited to the prophets in various ways. Dreams, visions, angels and perhaps Christ preexisting as the angel of the Lord when wrestling Jacob, even directly in a way with Moses. Thought also is cognition. It is one of the main thoughts that we are to have a relationship with God, and this requires thoughtful communication. When God created time, it is all possible that he does not think like we do, but he does think... and communicates that thought to us in various degrees.

    opinions become discussions, discussions become beliefs, beliefs become traditions and touted as authoritative
    I certainly do not agree with your first paragraph also. There can be progressive understandings, but that does not bury the truth but only make truth much more clear and concise. Much of the heresies are based on improper approaches to what has already been accepted as authoritative. The Torah came before the Prophets, and the N.T. came much later. Progessive. I'll come back later to discuss this. I just don't think you should be so negative about tradition, tradition is a progressive and consistent thing.

  6. #6
    BuckGardner
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    Oneness Pentecostals don't have that problem, Jesus is the only one and fulfills all roles and capacities and iden***ies as Father, Son and Holy Ghost, just the way as the Bible shows.

    The P***age is in 1 Cor. 15:28 and speaks of the man Christ, not a second god-man.

  7. #7
    BuckGardner
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    The Trinity is three persons, one God.

    Prove it with p***ages and a source from the Bible, not from man made creeds and outside biblical sources.

    The Father is God. Gal.1:1

    The Father is God, Eph.4:6

    The son is God. Jn.1:1

    DOES NOT SAY THE SON IS GOD THERE, you insert a theological idea, into the p***age, the Fatehr is God Mal. 2:10 and 1 Cor. 8:6 and Eph. 4:6.
    The Son of God is just what it says, the "Son" of God and God is Spirit and that which is the Son is the human flesh and tabernacle of God and his dwelling place.



    The Holy Spirit is God. Acts 5:3-4

    God is Spirit and according to Eph. 4;4, there is One Spirit and not man, so this is Jesus in his spirit state.
    See Col.1:27


    Co-equal. One God. Isa.43:10-11, Mal.3:6-7

    There is no such thing as co-equal, since there is no three persons or something called the trinity.
    These two p***ages say nothing of the sort (it is all a mind game with you folks).


    Jesus is God robed in flesh.

    Jesus is God robed in the flesh and Jesus is God that is Spirit!
    Jesus is not a hybrid man-god second person .


    The Trinity is also a mystery. We can't understand it fully.

    Bible says no such thing and 1 TIM.3;16 gives us the answer to suh if there was truly and such idea floating around.
    MYSTERY OF GODLINESS, GOD WAS MANIFEST IN THE FLESH.
    Not that God was flesh a man the Son of God.


    We have the scriptures that reveals part of this mystery, from there we walk by faith.
    Please read the above p***ages.

    You are walking off a cliff and straight into the Cultism of Rome and the Trinity farce.

    May God reveal the truth to you, to get you out of the error you are in,
    Buck

  8. #8
    ActRaiser
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    Buck, you seem to be arguing with the Bible.

  9. #9
    Beukeboom
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    Quote Originally Posted by BuckGardner View Post
    Prove it with p***ages and a source from the Bible, not from man made creeds and outside biblical sources.
    Buck, first off, learn to use the quote feature.

    Secondly, the whole of Scripture reveals the Holy Trinity. The answers to the following questions give evidence that when taken in totality, the Bible teaches the doctrine of the Trinity:

    Who does the Bible say is God?
    The Father (Eph. 4:6)? Yes!
    The Son (***us 2:13; John 1:1,14; 20:28)? Yes!
    The Holy Spirit (Acts 5:3-4)? Yes!
    The one and only true God (Deut. 4:35)? Yes!

    Therefore the Bible says that the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit are all Jehovah God.

    Who raised Jesus from the dead?
    The Father (Romans 6:4)? Yes!
    The Son (John 2:19-21; 10:17,18)? Yes!
    The Holy Spirit (Romans 8:11)? Yes!
    God (Acts 3:26, 13:30, 17:30,31; 1 Thess. 1:9,10; Heb. 13:20)? Yes!

    Therefore the Bible says that the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit in the unity as God were responsible for raising Jesus from the dead.

    Who saves man?
    Who REGENERATES man?
    The Father (1 Peter 1:3)? Yes!
    The Son (John 5:21, 4:14)? Yes!
    The Holy Spirit (John 3:6; ***us 3:5)? Yes!
    God (1 John 3:9)? Yes!

    Therefore the Bible says that the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit in the unity as God are responsible for regenerating man.

    Who JUSTIFIES man?
    The Father (Jer. 23:6, cf. 2 Cor. 5:19)? Yes!
    The Son (Romans 5:9, 10:4; 2 Cor. 5:19-21)? Yes!
    The Holy Spirit (1 Cor. 6:11; Gal. 5:5)? Yes!
    God (Romans 4:6, 9:33)? Yes!

    Therefore the Bible says that the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit in the unity as God are responsible for justifying man.

    Who SANCTIFIES man?
    The Father (Jude 1)? Yes!
    The Son (***us 2:14)? Yes!
    The Holy Spirit (1 Peter 1:2)? Yes!
    God (Exodus 31:13)? Yes!

    Therefore the Bible says that the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit in the unity as God are responsible for regenerating man.

    Who propitiated God's just anger against man for his sins?
    The Father (1 John 4:14; John 3:16, 17:5, 18:11)? Yes!
    The Son (Matthew 26:28; John 1:29; 1 John 2:2)? Yes!
    The Holy Spirit (Heb. 9:14)? Yes!
    God (2 Cor. 5:1; Acts 20:28)? Yes!

    Therefore the Bible says that the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit in the unity as God had propitiated God's just anger against man for his sins?

    BIBLICAL CONCLUSION: The Bible clearly teaches the doctrine of the Trinity.

    Though some exalt human reason against the doctrine of the Trinity, saying that it is "unreasonable," people who submit their minds to God's Word must conclude that it is unreasonable NOT to believe in it.

    Recommended reading:

    The Trinity: Evidence And Issues by Robert Morey
    The Forgotten Trinity by Dr. James R. White
    Testimonies Of The Ante-Nicene Fathers To The Doctrine Of The Trinity by Edward Burton
    The Holy Trinity: In Scripture, History, Theology, and Worship by Robert Letham
    God in Three Persons by E. Calvin Beisner
    Father, Son, and Holy Spirit: Relationships, Roles, and Relevance by Bruce A. Ware
    Trinity & Triunity: Salvation and the Nature of the Godhead by E. Charles Heinze
    The Trinitarian Controversy by William G. Rusch
    The Trinity by Edward H. Bickersteth
    The Trinity In The New Testament by Arthur W. Wainwright
    Making Sense of The Trinity by Millard J. Erickson
    Our Triune God by Peter Toon
    Correcting The Cults: Expert Responses To Their Scripture Twisting by Norman Geisler & Ron Rhodes
    Why You Should Believe In The Trinity by Robert M. Bowman, Jr.
    Christian Theology by Millard J. Erickson
    Systematic Theology by Wayne Grudem
    The Fundamentals by R.A. Torrey
    Systematic Theology by Charles Hodge
    The King James Study Bible
    The NIV Study Bible
    The ESV Study Bible
    The Apologetics Study Bible
    The Quest Study Bible
    The MacArthur Study Bible

    Also, there are many reliable and well-documented online resources showing the Trinity to be Biblically based doctrine. One such collection of resources may be found on www.Monergism.com on this page: http://www.monergism.com/directory/l...egory/Trinity/

    And reading the essay en***led “What Does The Bible Reveal About The Trinity?” by Dr. John Ankerberg and Dr. John Weldon also goes into greater Biblical detail than the constraints of this forum will allow.

  10. #10
    Beukeboom
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    Quote Originally Posted by BuckGardner View Post
    Oneness Pentecostals don't have that problem
    Actually Oneness Pentecostals have a huge problem which leads them to eternal ****ation if they don't repent. Oneness Pentecostalism teaches heresies to its followers up to and including denials of essential Christian doctrines.

  11. #11
    Senior Member MacG's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BuckGardner View Post
    Oneness Pentecostals don't have that problem, Jesus is the only one and fulfills all roles and capacities and iden***ies as Father, Son and Holy Ghost, just the way as the Bible shows.

    The P***age is in 1 Cor. 15:28 and speaks of the man Christ, not a second god-man.
    If Jesus is all there is then there is no need for roles.

    If Jesus is all then I can translate John 1:1 this way:

    "In the beginning was Jesus, and Jesus was with Jesus, and Jesus was Jesus. Jesus was in the beginning with Jesus."

    It makes no sense man.

    Blessings.

    MacG

  12. #12
    Senior Member johnd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Columcille View Post
    JohnD,
    One of the aspects of thought is also communication.
    How so? Do you have to move your mouth when you think?

    God the Father communicated to the prophets in various ways.
    Hebrews 1:1-2
    1 In the past God spoke to our forefathers through the prophets at many times and in various ways,
    2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe.

    Right?

    The Greek is not that conjunctive. It says God spoke in verse 1 and in verse 2 the Son speaks. It does not say "his son."

    Furthermore...

    John 5:37
    37 And the Father who sent me has himself testified concerning me. You have never heard his voice nor seen his form,

    John 1:18
    18 No one has ever seen God, but God the One and Only, who is at the Father’s side, has made him known.

    God the Word who became God the Son is the one with whom we have been dealing all along. The Father of his incarnate body (Hebrews 10: 5-7 and John 1:14) was a mystery to be revealed by Jesus.

    1 Corinthians 2. Why would the Holy Spirit need to search the mind of the Father?

    No, it appears (at least) that there is biblical evidence to support my supposition that God the Word and who we call the Holy Spirit (because all three are Spirit and all three are Holy)... almost like he was left without a name like saying to one of us... yo, human, come here... but I digress...

    It appears the two both emptied themselves of certain divine to poke into time and eternity in a way they could relate / communicate...

    2 Corinthians 12:2
    2 I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago was caught up to the third heaven. Whether it was in the body or out of the body I do not know—God knows.

    Commentators and tradition teach that heaven number 3 is the throne room of God. Heaven number 2 is the universe. And heaven number 1 is the sky above earth.

    Suppose that is wrong.

    Suppose the 3rd heaven is where the Father is. The 2nd heaven is eternity / the spirit realm. And the 1st heaven is our universe. And the 1st heaven and the 1st earth shall p*** away...

    All the stars will fall. There will be no more sun or moon (and presumably no stars) when the new heaven/earth is created.

    The Father is on a higher plain of existence (often described as a throne room for our feeble minds to grasp). Jesus prayed in John 17 to be given the glory he had with the Father before the earth was...

    Even if none of this is true... don't presume you understand as much about the nature of God nor of eternity as you (we) think.

    I certainly do not agree with your first paragraph also.
    Didn't think you would. Traditions are hard to let go of. Think about how you felt when you found out there was no santa claus or that the stork didn't really bring your little brother...

    Suffice it to say, because of our incurable religiosity, we are like that little kid with the Christmas stocking in hand looking all the trouble people and municipalities and nations go to in order to purport a rouse like santa claus.

    God gave the world Judaism to show religion doesn't work and to wean humanity from it. But the Jews reinvented it into a religion. The sermon on the mount was just as radical as any thing you could imagine today being radical. Jesus took human commentary of the OT and refuted it with his own commentary putting the Law back on track proving the futility of religion.

    James 2:10
    10 For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it.

    Galatians 3:24-25
    24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
    25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

    Not that we are without law. It's a higher, far less complicated law, but it is a law nevertheless:

    1 Corinthians 9:19-21
    19 Though I am free and belong to no man, I make myself a slave to everyone, to win as many as possible.
    20 To the Jews I became like a Jew, to win the Jews. To those under the law I became like one under the law (though I myself am not under the law), so as to win those under the law.
    21 To those not having the law I became like one not having the law (though I am not free from God’s law but am under Christ’s law), so as to win those not having the law (including those under the old law).

    And if you look in the OT you will see the same ground breaking evidence for the contrasting laws (usually in the form of "my law" as in Jeremiah 31:33, Genesis 26:5 which long predates the giving of Torah on Mount Sinai, and so on)... as the Spirit does with such evidence for the Trinity and so forth...

    So, I stand by my origina statement:

    "opinions become discussions, discussions become beliefs, beliefs become traditions and are touted as authoritative, churches split, denominations form, and the truth is that much more buried behind this gobbledygook."
    The Bible is its own best commentary.
    Prophecy is the word of God
    which sometimes speaks of future... sometimes of the present... sometimes of the past.
    A prophet is the tool God uses.
    It's not about the prophet, but about the God who uses the prophet to speak his word...

  13. #13
    Senior Member johnd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beukeboom View Post
    Actually Oneness Pentecostals have a huge problem which leads them to eternal ****ation if they don't repent. Oneness Pentecostalism teaches heresies to its followers up to and including denials of essential Christian doctrines.
    The real bottom line is, Jesus is the Savior of all mankind... particularly (in particular) those who believe.

    1 Timothy 4:10
    10 (and for this we labor and strive), that we have put our hope in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, and especially of those who believe.

    1 John 2:2
    2 He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.

    There's only one catch... one requirement... for this eternal account o be activated, you have to believe... in the right Jesus.

    2 Corinthians 11:3-4
    3 But I am afraid that just as Eve was deceived by the serpent’s cunning, your minds may somehow be led astray from your sincere and pure devotion to Christ.
    4 For if someone comes to you and preaches a Jesus other than the Jesus we preached, or if you receive a different spirit from the one you received, or a different gospel from the one you accepted, you put up with it easily enough.

    Galatians 1:8-9
    8 But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned!
    9 As we have already said, so now I say again: If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let him be eternally condemned!

    John 3:16-18
    16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
    17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him.
    18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.


    You see, UPC, Apostolic, Mormons, J.W.s, Hindus, Muslims etc. all have A jesus. Just not the right Jesus. For salvation to be realized you have to believe in the real Jesus not a counterfeit.

    And the way to find that Jesus is to let God speak for himself and stop putting words in God's mouth.
    The Bible is its own best commentary.
    Prophecy is the word of God
    which sometimes speaks of future... sometimes of the present... sometimes of the past.
    A prophet is the tool God uses.
    It's not about the prophet, but about the God who uses the prophet to speak his word...

  14. #14
    Senior Member johnd's Avatar
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    Default whooo kayyyy (cracking knuckles)

    Quote Originally Posted by BuckGardner View Post
    The Trinity is three persons, one God.

    Prove it with p***ages and a source from the Bible, not from man made creeds and outside biblical sources.
    Hey, a man after my own heart. I don't like creeds or traditions either. But that being said... here goes...

    The Father is God. Gal.1:1

    The Father is God, Eph.4:6

    The son is God. Jn.1:1

    DOES NOT SAY THE SON IS GOD THERE, you insert a theological idea, into the p***age, the Fatehr is God Mal. 2:10 and 1 Cor. 8:6 and Eph. 4:6.
    The Son of God is just what it says, the "Son" of God and God is Spirit and that which is the Son is the human flesh and tabernacle of God and his dwelling place.


    Let's look at the record.

    John 1:1-3 clearly says that he who existed in the beginning with God (the Word) created all things. Yes? cI'll quote it and show ya.

    John 1:1-3
    1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
    2 He was with God in the beginning.
    3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

    Echoed in:

    Colossians 1:13-18
    13 For he has rescued us from the dominion of darkness and brought us into the kingdom of the Son he loves,
    14 in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins.
    15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
    16 For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him.
    17 He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.
    18 And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy.

    Through him. By him. For him.

    Isaiah 44:24
    24 “This is what the LORD says— your Redeemer, who formed you in the womb: I am the LORD, who has made all things, who alone stretched out the heavens, who spread out the earth by myself,

    Genesis 1:1
    1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

    This was done alone by himself the Word who was with God in the beginning, and the scriptures clearly say that he the Word is God and that God (alone who also claims to be YHVH the LORD) created all things.

    There's no escaping the consistency of the p***ages of scripture.

    And for you oneness types, the Word is not the Father. There is only one thing the Father is credited in scripture for creating and that's the Son (the human body of Jesus):

    John 1:14
    14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

    Hebrews 10:5-12
    5 Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:
    6 In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure.
    7 Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God.
    8 Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law;
    9 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.
    10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
    11 And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins:
    12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;

    So modalism is wrong. The Father is not the Creator the Word is who is God and was with God (the Father and the Holy Spirit) in the beginning. Incidentally, the only thing the Holy Spirit is credited with creating is the Bible:

    2 Peter 1:20-21
    20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.
    21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

    The Holy Ghost (contrary to popular opinion) is not the Father of the Son. Luke's account:

    Luke 1:26-35
    26 And in the sixth month the angel Gabriel was sent from God unto a city of Galilee, named Nazareth,
    27 To a virgin espoused to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David; and the virgin’s name was Mary.
    28 And the angel came in unto her, and said, Hail, thou that art highly favoured, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women.
    29 And when she saw him, she was troubled at his saying, and cast in her mind what manner of salutation this should be.
    30 And the angel said unto her, Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favour with God.
    31 And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS.
    32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:
    33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.
    34 Then said Mary unto the angel, How shall this be, seeing I know not a man?
    35 And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, AND the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.

    The Holy Spirit was there as an attendant. But clearly there are two being referred to here. And if you factor in the third (Jesus himself) this is a Triune attended event.

    continued...
    The Bible is its own best commentary.
    Prophecy is the word of God
    which sometimes speaks of future... sometimes of the present... sometimes of the past.
    A prophet is the tool God uses.
    It's not about the prophet, but about the God who uses the prophet to speak his word...

  15. #15
    Senior Member johnd's Avatar
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    Default continuing to quote and answer Uncle Buck

    The Holy Spirit is God. Acts 5:3-4

    God is Spirit and according to Eph. 4;4, there is One Spirit and not man, so this is Jesus in his spirit state.
    See Col.1:27
    Ephesians 4:1-7
    1 I therefore, the prisoner of the Lord, beseech you that ye walk worthy of the vocation wherewith ye are called,
    2 With all lowliness and meekness, with longsuffering, forbearing one another in love;
    3 Endeavouring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.
    4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;
    5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
    6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.
    7 But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of (one) Christ.

    One cross. One Abraham. One world. Unity is the point. The unity of the Spirit (the Comforter / Counselor) Holy Spirit sent by both the Father and the Son (John 14:26 and John 15:26) into the world. Being sent by very nature declares the one(s) sending and the one being sent cannot be one and the same persons / individuals. That's evidence and I would say proof of the Trinity.

    The p***age does not say there is only one Spirit. It does not specify divine or other wise. And surely you understand there are many spirits. The p***age is referring to the individual Holy Spirit and yes there is just one of him. And one Spirit who is God the Father and one Spirit who is both man and Spirit, God the Son.

    Co-equal. One God. Isa.43:10-11, Mal.3:6-7

    There is no such thing as co-equal, since there is no three persons or something called the trinity.


    A statement you make without proof. I say your car is orange. That is a statement I make without proof.

    You are no more authoritative than I. It only matters what the Bible says. And as I have already shown, the Bible proves you wrong.

    Jesus is God robed in flesh.

    Jesus is God robed in the flesh and Jesus is God that is Spirit!
    Jesus is not a hybrid man-god second person .
    Once again, the word of Buck is trying to trump the word of God.

    Philippians 2:6-8 in the Greek states he remained in the form of God AND became a man.

    morphe theos huparchon.

    He became man. He did not possess a man. That's what devils and demons do. Are you trying to make God out to be like them, Buck?

    The Trinity is also a mystery. We can't understand it fully.

    Bible says no such thing and 1 TIM.3;16 gives us the answer to such if there was truly and such idea floating around.
    MYSTERY OF GODLINESS, GOD WAS MANIFEST IN THE FLESH.
    Not that God was flesh a man the Son of God.
    This also makes my case. God was manifested in the flesh. He did not simply inhabit a man. He became a man. This is the intent of the p***age. It is not a solution to the mystery of the nature of God.

    I will say I am tired of hearing how hard the Trinity is to understand when it is not hard to understand at all. We simply have to stop thinking of God as a singular one. Family is an example of a unity of plurality. We understand it perfectly. Likewise with God. God is a singleness of unity (unity by it's very nature means more than one being alike or agreeing).

    So, Trinitarians, stop parroting Hank Hanagraaff and start using your own brains.
    The Bible is its own best commentary.
    Prophecy is the word of God
    which sometimes speaks of future... sometimes of the present... sometimes of the past.
    A prophet is the tool God uses.
    It's not about the prophet, but about the God who uses the prophet to speak his word...

  16. #16
    Senior Member johnd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BuckGardner View Post
    Oneness Pentecostals don't have that problem, Jesus is the only one and fulfills all roles and capacities and iden***ies as Father, Son and Holy Ghost, just the way as the Bible shows.

    The P***age is in 1 Cor. 15:28 and speaks of the man Christ, not a second god-man.
    John 14:26
    26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

    John 16:13
    13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

    John 15:26
    26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:

    One cannot SEND one's self.

    One cannot omit speaking of himself if he is the one of whom he is speaking.
    The Bible is its own best commentary.
    Prophecy is the word of God
    which sometimes speaks of future... sometimes of the present... sometimes of the past.
    A prophet is the tool God uses.
    It's not about the prophet, but about the God who uses the prophet to speak his word...

  17. #17
    Senior Member johnd's Avatar
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    Bottom line:

    Trinitarian theology answers all the objections, solves all the riddles, dots every "i" crosses every "t" with regard to the nature and person(s) of the one God.
    The Bible is its own best commentary.
    Prophecy is the word of God
    which sometimes speaks of future... sometimes of the present... sometimes of the past.
    A prophet is the tool God uses.
    It's not about the prophet, but about the God who uses the prophet to speak his word...

  18. #18
    jeanmarie
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    Quote Originally Posted by johnd View Post
    I do not wish to inject personal opinion into pristine doctrine (namely because it sullies the appearance of that pristine doctrine in the minds of followers or those who are considering conversion... opinions become discussions, discussions become beliefs, beliefs become traditions and touted as authoritative, churches split, denominations form, and the truth is that much more buried behind this gobbledygook.

    Still, I offer an idea that occurred to me... from an old Greg Koukl Stand to Reason broadcast in which he stated he believes God (because he is omniscient) does not think.

    Let that sink in a moment.

    I rebuffed it in my mind the same as you are doing now. Alknowingness... means God knows all things past present future PLUS all the variables given the limited sovereignty he has given man. It was then that I realized Greg must be addressing God's existence on a much higher plain than man realizes. And that his statement was abrupt to get out attention but that he was saying God does not think like man thinks. Our thinking processes are to get us through time and eternity with the limitations of thought we possess and the limited sight.

    It then occurred to me that the emptying of self Jesus went through is thought to have only taken place in the incarnation... but what if he came down (from "heaven" is the language used), to our level mentally speaking as far back as Genesis 1? Temporal thinking as opposed to eternal steady state alknowing. In order to deal with us. Not to say he did not have access to both... and the Holy Spirit too would have to have access to temporal thinking processes in order to deal with us...

    But the Father who has had aparently the least dealings with humanity of the three in the Godhead (taking verses like John 6:46 to heart)... would that not suggest he remained in the higher eternal alknowing state and therefore is the final authority, the "anchor" (for lack of a better word) back to the eternal alknowing state... and therefore the Greatest in that he is the one of the three coequals who is in the pristine state of Godhood (as in eternity before anyone or anything other than God was created to exist).

    Greatest btw does not mean best or better.

    Each has a role in salvation. And each role is different. And each role has a different level of suffering.

    Chestnuts to chew on.
    All three persons of the Trinity are equal.
    There is one God. to say there is one greater than the other would suggest more than one god.

    God bless,
    jeanm

  19. #19
    Senior Member johnd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jeanmarie View Post
    All three persons of the Trinity are equal.
    There is one God. to say there is one greater than the other would suggest more than one god.

    God bless,
    jeanm
    Not necessarily, JM.

    John 14:28
    28 “You heard me say, ‘I am going away and I am coming back to you.’ If you loved me, you would be glad that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I.

    But there is still only one God (Deuteronomy 6:4, Isaiah 43-46 etc.)

    And Jesus is God (Hebrews 1:8) and the Father is God (John 20:17)...

    So, your claim does not appear to line up with scripture.

    Dr. Martin said the Bible teaches that the Father is greater... but it does not mean better... only in a position of higher authority which is office not nature.
    The Bible is its own best commentary.
    Prophecy is the word of God
    which sometimes speaks of future... sometimes of the present... sometimes of the past.
    A prophet is the tool God uses.
    It's not about the prophet, but about the God who uses the prophet to speak his word...

  20. #20
    kentuckypreacher
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    Jesus emptied Himself (Philippians 2:5-8). That explains it.

  21. #21
    Senior Member johnd's Avatar
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    Indeed.

    He was made a little lower than the angels and then Php 2:9-11 glorified by the Father.
    The Bible is its own best commentary.
    Prophecy is the word of God
    which sometimes speaks of future... sometimes of the present... sometimes of the past.
    A prophet is the tool God uses.
    It's not about the prophet, but about the God who uses the prophet to speak his word...

  22. #22
    JE
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    Default Who is highest?

    This is a matter of the ontological Trinity versus the economic Trinity. Ontological speaks of who they are: they are equal. Economic speaks of what they do: they submit... The Son is submitted to the Father, The Holy Spirit is submitted to the Son.

    http://www.carm.org/christianity/chr...onomic-trinity
    Last edited by JE; 12-15-2009 at 10:31 AM. Reason: addition

  23. #23
    Senior Member johnd's Avatar
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    If we think tank this... we could approach the infinite mind obliquely addressed in 1 Corinthians 2 which {may} suggest an emptying of both God the Word and God the Holy Spirit for purposes of relating and communicating with lower life forms (namely us).

    That the Father remained in the higher state of consciousness and indeed deals with humanity through the Holy Spirit and the Word Incarnate (i.e. Jesus). This would explain a lot about why at times God did not seem to know the future... it was God the Word or God the Holy Spirit... and why would the Holy Spirit (1 Corinthians 2) even have to search the mind of God (the Father)? And how else could it be possible that {only} the Father knows the day and the hour of the end events to human history?

    In this way (IMHO) is the Father "greater" than the Son or the Holy Spirit... and as Walter Martin used to teach "greater" is a matter of position rather than "better" which is a matter of value.
    The Bible is its own best commentary.
    Prophecy is the word of God
    which sometimes speaks of future... sometimes of the present... sometimes of the past.
    A prophet is the tool God uses.
    It's not about the prophet, but about the God who uses the prophet to speak his word...

  24. #24
    ChrisLaRock
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    Quote Originally Posted by ActRaiser View Post
    I think that Jesus is highest in the Trinity. On the other hand, there is a Bible verse which seems to indicate that in Revelation, Jesus will give his authority over to the Father.

    Another Bible verse seems to indicate that Jesus is greater than the Father. 'He who is greatest is he who serves." On numerous occasions Jesus speaks of the Father having greater authority.

    (However this was on Earth at the time.)
    Blasphemy against the Father and Son will be forgiven. Blasphemy against the Holy Spirit won't be forgiven. This would seem to indicate the Holy Spirit is superior.

    But at the same time, they are the one God and equal. It gets confusing.

  25. #25
    Senior Member johnd's Avatar
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    He among you who would be greatest must be least. This is the proper context if memory serves. The application was strictly for humans. Like it or not, we were created to serve and not be served.

    Blasphemy against the Holy Spirit is not so much indicative of his position or superiority as it is to his mission / ministry.

    Each individual in the Godhead has a unique ministry / mission. The Father is the authority (John 14:28) and creator of the body of Jesus (John 1:14 / Hebrew 10:5-7). The preincarnate Jesus is the sole creator of all things created (other than his body) John 1:1-3, Colossians 1:13-18, Isaiah 44:24.

    The Holy Spirit is the author of the Bible...

    2 Peter 1:20-21 (KJV)
    20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.
    21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.



    And the leader of us all into all truth:


    John 16:13 (KJV)
    13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.


    His mission / ministry put another way is to point humanity to Jesus. If we blaspheme the Holy Spirit by making him out to be a liar or defame his testimony about Jesus and / or die in unbelief or rejection of Jesus whom the Holy Spirit testifies to... then this is the blasphemy Jesus warned about.

    You have to remember he was referring to the leadership of the Jewish people who were busily engaged in leading the people away from the Messiah not to him. And they stopped at nothing to accomplish this.

    The poisonous leaven of the Pharisees is regurgitated to this day in Jewish upbringing, community, synagogue, etc. You have to that that into account as well.
    The Bible is its own best commentary.
    Prophecy is the word of God
    which sometimes speaks of future... sometimes of the present... sometimes of the past.
    A prophet is the tool God uses.
    It's not about the prophet, but about the God who uses the prophet to speak his word...

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