Who is Highest in the Trinity?

[johnd]

I do not wish to inject personal opinion into pristine doctrine (namely because it sullies the appearance of that pristine doctrine in the minds of followers or those who are considering conversion... opinions become discussions, discussions become beliefs, beliefs become traditions and touted as authoritative, churches split, denominations form, and the truth is that much more buried behind this gobbledygook.

Still, I offer an idea that occurred to me... from an old Greg Koukl Stand to Reason broadcast in which he stated he believes God (because he is omniscient) does not think.

Let that sink in a moment.

I rebuffed it in my mind the same as you are doing now. Alknowingness... means God knows all things past present future PLUS all the variables given the limited sovereignty he has given man. It was then that I realized Greg must be addressing God's existence on a much higher plain than man realizes. And that his statement was abrupt to get out attention but that he was saying God does not think like man thinks. Our thinking processes are to get us through time and eternity with the limitations of thought we possess and the limited sight.

It then occurred to me that the emptying of self Jesus went through is thought to have only taken place in the incarnation... but what if he came down (from "heaven" is the language used), to our level mentally speaking as far back as Genesis 1? Temporal thinking as opposed to eternal steady state alknowing. In order to deal with us. Not to say he did not have access to both... and the Holy Spirit too would have to have access to temporal thinking processes in order to deal with us...

But the Father who has had aparently the least dealings with humanity of the three in the Godhead (taking verses like John 6:46 to heart)... would that not suggest he remained in the higher eternal alknowing state and therefore is the final authority, the "anchor" (for lack of a better word) back to the eternal alknowing state... and therefore the Greatest in that he is the one of the three coequals who is in the pristine state of Godhood (as in eternity before anyone or anything other than God was created to exist).

Greatest btw does not mean best or better.

Each has a role in salvation. And each role is different. And each role has a different level of suffering.

Chestnuts to chew on.

[Columcille]

JohnD,
One of the aspects of thought is also communication. God the Father communited to the prophets in various ways. Dreams, visions, angels and perhaps Christ preexisting as the angel of the Lord when wrestling Jacob, even directly in a way with Moses. Thought also is cognition. It is one of the main thoughts that we are to have a relationship with God, and this requires thoughtful communication. When God created time, it is all possible that he does not think like we do, but he does think... and communicates that thought to us in various degrees.

opinions become discussions, discussions become beliefs, beliefs become traditions and touted as authoritative

I certainly do not agree with your first paragraph also. There can be progressive understandings, but that does not bury the truth but only make truth much more clear and concise. Much of the heresies are based on improper approaches to what has already been accepted as authoritative. The Torah came before the Prophets, and the N.T. came much later. Progessive. I'll come back later to discuss this. I just don't think you should be so negative about tradition, tradition is a progressive and consistent thing.

[johnd]

Originally Posted by Columcille

JohnD,
One of the aspects of thought is also communication.

How so? Do you have to move your mouth when you think?

God the Father communicated to the prophets in various ways.

Hebrews 1:1-2
1 In the past God spoke to our forefathers through the prophets at many times and in various ways,
2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe.

Right?

The Greek is not that conjunctive. It says God spoke in verse 1 and in verse 2 the Son speaks. It does not say "his son."

Furthermore...

John 5:37
37 And the Father who sent me has himself testified concerning me. You have never heard his voice nor seen his form,

John 1:18
18 No one has ever seen God, but God the One and Only, who is at the Father’s side, has made him known.

God the Word who became God the Son is the one with whom we have been dealing all along. The Father of his incarnate body (Hebrews 10: 5-7 and John 1:14) was a mystery to be revealed by Jesus.

1 Corinthians 2. Why would the Holy Spirit need to search the mind of the Father?

No, it appears (at least) that there is biblical evidence to support my supposition that God the Word and who we call the Holy Spirit (because all three are Spirit and all three are Holy)... almost like he was left without a name like saying to one of us... yo, human, come here... but I digress...

It appears the two both emptied themselves of certain divine to poke into time and eternity in a way they could relate / communicate...

2 Corinthians 12:2
2 I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago was caught up to the third heaven. Whether it was in the body or out of the body I do not know—God knows.

Commentators and tradition teach that heaven number 3 is the throne room of God. Heaven number 2 is the universe. And heaven number 1 is the sky above earth.

Suppose that is wrong.

Suppose the 3rd heaven is where the Father is. The 2nd heaven is eternity / the spirit realm. And the 1st heaven is our universe. And the 1st heaven and the 1st earth shall p*** away...

All the stars will fall. There will be no more sun or moon (and presumably no stars) when the new heaven/earth is created.

The Father is on a higher plain of existence (often described as a throne room for our feeble minds to grasp). Jesus prayed in John 17 to be given the glory he had with the Father before the earth was...

Even if none of this is true... don't presume you understand as much about the nature of God nor of eternity as you (we) think.

I certainly do not agree with your first paragraph also.

Didn't think you would. Traditions are hard to let go of. Think about how you felt when you found out there was no santa claus or that the stork didn't really bring your little brother...

Suffice it to say, because of our incurable religiosity, we are like that little kid with the Christmas stocking in hand looking all the trouble people and municipalities and nations go to in order to purport a rouse like santa claus.

God gave the world Judaism to show religion doesn't work and to wean humanity from it. But the Jews reinvented it into a religion. The sermon on the mount was just as radical as any thing you could imagine today being radical. Jesus took human commentary of the OT and refuted it with his own commentary putting the Law back on track proving the futility of religion.

James 2:10
10 For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it.

Galatians 3:24-25
24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

Not that we are without law. It's a higher, far less complicated law, but it is a law nevertheless:

1 Corinthians 9:19-21
19 Though I am free and belong to no man, I make myself a slave to everyone, to win as many as possible.
20 To the Jews I became like a Jew, to win the Jews. To those under the law I became like one under the law (though I myself am not under the law), so as to win those under the law.
21 To those not having the law I became like one not having the law (though I am not free from God’s law but am under Christ’s law), so as to win those not having the law (including those under the old law).

And if you look in the OT you will see the same ground breaking evidence for the contrasting laws (usually in the form of "my law" as in Jeremiah 31:33, Genesis 26:5 which long predates the giving of Torah on Mount Sinai, and so on)... as the Spirit does with such evidence for the Trinity and so forth...

So, I stand by my origina statement:

"opinions become discussions, discussions become beliefs, beliefs become traditions and are touted as authoritative, churches split, denominations form, and the truth is that much more buried behind this gobbledygook."

[jeanmarie]

Originally Posted by johnd

I do not wish to inject personal opinion into pristine doctrine (namely because it sullies the appearance of that pristine doctrine in the minds of followers or those who are considering conversion... opinions become discussions, discussions become beliefs, beliefs become traditions and touted as authoritative, churches split, denominations form, and the truth is that much more buried behind this gobbledygook.

Still, I offer an idea that occurred to me... from an old Greg Koukl Stand to Reason broadcast in which he stated he believes God (because he is omniscient) does not think.

Let that sink in a moment.

I rebuffed it in my mind the same as you are doing now. Alknowingness... means God knows all things past present future PLUS all the variables given the limited sovereignty he has given man. It was then that I realized Greg must be addressing God's existence on a much higher plain than man realizes. And that his statement was abrupt to get out attention but that he was saying God does not think like man thinks. Our thinking processes are to get us through time and eternity with the limitations of thought we possess and the limited sight.

It then occurred to me that the emptying of self Jesus went through is thought to have only taken place in the incarnation... but what if he came down (from "heaven" is the language used), to our level mentally speaking as far back as Genesis 1? Temporal thinking as opposed to eternal steady state alknowing. In order to deal with us. Not to say he did not have access to both... and the Holy Spirit too would have to have access to temporal thinking processes in order to deal with us...

But the Father who has had aparently the least dealings with humanity of the three in the Godhead (taking verses like John 6:46 to heart)... would that not suggest he remained in the higher eternal alknowing state and therefore is the final authority, the "anchor" (for lack of a better word) back to the eternal alknowing state... and therefore the Greatest in that he is the one of the three coequals who is in the pristine state of Godhood (as in eternity before anyone or anything other than God was created to exist).

Greatest btw does not mean best or better.

Each has a role in salvation. And each role is different. And each role has a different level of suffering.

Chestnuts to chew on.

All three persons of the Trinity are equal.
There is one God. to say there is one greater than the other would suggest more than one god.

God bless,
jeanm

[johnd]

Originally Posted by jeanmarie

All three persons of the Trinity are equal.
There is one God. to say there is one greater than the other would suggest more than one god.

God bless,
jeanm

Not necessarily, JM.

John 14:28
28 “You heard me say, ‘I am going away and I am coming back to you.’ If you loved me, you would be glad that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I.

But there is still only one God (Deuteronomy 6:4, Isaiah 43-46 etc.)

And Jesus is God (Hebrews 1:8) and the Father is God (John 20:17)...

So, your claim does not appear to line up with scripture.

Dr. Martin said the Bible teaches that the Father is greater... but it does not mean better... only in a position of higher authority which is office not nature.

[kentuckypreacher]

Jesus emptied Himself (Philippians 2:5-8). That explains it.

[johnd]

Indeed.

He was made a little lower than the angels and then Php 2:9-11 glorified by the Father.

[JE]

This is a matter of the ontological Trinity versus the economic Trinity. Ontological speaks of who they are: they are equal. Economic speaks of what they do: they submit... The Son is submitted to the Father, The Holy Spirit is submitted to the Son.

http://www.carm.org/christianity/chr...onomic-trinity

[johnd]

If we think tank this... we could approach the infinite mind obliquely addressed in 1 Corinthians 2 which {may} suggest an emptying of both God the Word and God the Holy Spirit for purposes of relating and communicating with lower life forms (namely us).

That the Father remained in the higher state of consciousness and indeed deals with humanity through the Holy Spirit and the Word Incarnate (i.e. Jesus). This would explain a lot about why at times God did not seem to know the future... it was God the Word or God the Holy Spirit... and why would the Holy Spirit (1 Corinthians 2) even have to search the mind of God (the Father)? And how else could it be possible that {only} the Father knows the day and the hour of the end events to human history?

In this way (IMHO) is the Father "greater" than the Son or the Holy Spirit... and as Walter Martin used to teach "greater" is a matter of position rather than "better" which is a matter of value.