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Thread: Who is Highest in the Trinity?

  1. #26
    Jean Chauvin
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    Answer:

    Again, the Father is greater in rank and higher in rank. But in being, there is no greater or better, but rather they are all equal.

    Respectfully,

    Jean Chauvin (Jude 3).

  2. #27
    Senior Member johnd's Avatar
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    Correct. The Father is in ultimate authority. It is his wrath that was appeased by the sacrifice of Jesus. It is he who spares us for believing in his Son and loving him he loves us. And it is he who alone has the omniscience as to the future.

    Mark 13:32 (NASB95)
    32 “But of that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone.

    Acts 1:7 (NASB95)
    7 He said to them, “It is not for you to know times or epochs which the Father has fixed by His own authority;

    And...

    1 Corinthians 2:10 (NASB95)
    10 For to us God revealed them through the Spirit; for the Spirit searches all things, even the depths of God.

    Why would the Spirit need to search them if he also had the omniscience of the Father?

    I personally believe the emptying of Jesus was not so much of greatness but a limitation of ability or access to things like omniscience (at least to some degree) in order to relate to and communicate with temporal beings like us... and apparently this is true also about the Holy Spirit.

    It may otherwise be simply so God the Father could send God the Son and God the Holy Spirit into the world as his messengers (i.e. the Angel of the Lord).
    The Bible is its own best commentary.
    Prophecy is the word of God
    which sometimes speaks of future... sometimes of the present... sometimes of the past.
    A prophet is the tool God uses.
    It's not about the prophet, but about the God who uses the prophet to speak his word...

  3. #28
    alanmolstad
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    when Jesus was returned to life, and spoke about "All power... etc"

    I believe at that time Jesus had returned to the all-knowing state he had with the father before he became man.

  4. #29
    alanmolstad
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    Quote Originally Posted by ActRaiser View Post
    ......"My Father is greater than I"

    seems clear to me.


    The members of the trinity is equal in nature.
    The Son is submissive to the Father in authority

  5. #30
    Senior Member MichaellS's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post
    The members of the trinity is equal in nature.
    The Son is submissive to the Father in authority
    I think you zeroed in here Alan.

    "My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all, , (John 10:29) NAS

    "If you loved Me, you would have rejoiced because I go to the Father, for the Father is greater than I. (John 14:28)

    Sounds like a call to rejoice over His leaving to join His stature.

    "For the Father loves the Son, and shows Him all things that He Himself is doing; and the Father will show Him greater works than these, so that you will marvel. – (John 5:20)

    “For not even the Father judges anyone, but He has given all judgment to the Son, so that all will honor the Son even as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent Him. – (John 5:22, 23)

    Yet:

    "I and the Father are one." (John 10:30)

    To consider these positions within the Godhead appears limited. Within that consideration is as always also that ability to form consensus that tilts out and away from a text in the word here or there.

    Let me bounce one more off the reader. Since the Lord has formally placed himself below the Father, yet One with Him, it isn’t a principle we are accustom to and therefore hard to fathom, or is it?

    “The disciple is not above his master: but every one that is perfect shall be as his master. – (Luke 6:40) KJV


    In an effort to encapsulate all of the above, including those I have not included, is an inseparable statement. Is it a grave stretch that out of the 80 or so references describing this statement of union we call the Trinity, proceeds the above declaration of the finality of an almighty greatness - the Father? But as seen in the above principle, the other two; the Son and the Holy Spirit being “perfect”, remains “as” the Father, for at what point up the chain does the principle end seeing that He did say “every one”? (Luke 6:40)

    Strongs:

    “Master”

    didaskalos: an instructor
    Part of Speech: Noun, Masculine
    Short Definition: a teacher
    Definition: a teacher, master.

    “that is perfect”

    katartizó: to complete, prepare
    Part of Speech: Verb
    Short Definition: I fit together, prepare
    Definition: (a) I fit (join) together; met: I compact together, (b) act. and mid: I prepare, perfect, for his (its) full destination or use, bring into its proper condition (whether for the first time, or after a lapse).

  6. #31
    Tom Boots
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    No co-equality, no co-eternal, NO TRINITY, it is not biblical and scripture doesn't even hint of such things.

    THE FATHER IS THE ONLY TRUE GOD, Jn 17:1-3 makes that clear.
    The SON WAS BEGOTTEN , MADE, BORN AND DIED AND THEN NEEDED TWO OTHER gods TO RAISE HIM. (if the Trinity idea was true{thank God it ain't}).

    Trinitarians are following a gentile paganistic godhead view, seen in times past in every culture, a rejection of ONE GOD and a following of three making up a set and then in the more modern of these views, saying they are persons and not gods, but having the same contemptible idea=three versus the HOLY ONE and a denial of Jesus as God and Father as Spirit and as well the Son of God being a real perfect sinless man of flesh, but making him a god/man a demigod.

  7. #32
    Tom Boots
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    So you hold three beings.

  8. #33
    Senior Member MacG's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Boots View Post
    No co-equality, no co-eternal, NO TRINITY, it is not biblical and scripture doesn't even hint of such things.

    THE FATHER IS THE ONLY TRUE GOD, Jn 17:1-3 makes that clear.
    The SON WAS BEGOTTEN , MADE, BORN AND DIED AND THEN NEEDED TWO OTHER gods TO RAISE HIM. (if the Trinity idea was true{thank God it ain't}).

    Trinitarians are following a gentile paganistic godhead view, seen in times past in every culture, a rejection of ONE GOD and a following of three making up a set and then in the more modern of these views, saying they are persons and not gods, but having the same ;contemptible idea=three versus the HOLY ONE and a denial of Jesus as God and Father as Spirit and as well the Son of God being a real perfect sinless man of flesh, but making him a god/man a demigod.
    Once again it seems that you bear false witness against the Trinitarians. Maybe I see a clue though that maybe you er because you see it as a Pagan godhead which were three gods. But what you may not be willing to admit is that Trinitarians hold what the scriptures declare that there is One God and that the Son Raised Himself, the Father raised Jesus from the dead, the Holy Spirit raised Him from the dead and God raised him from the dead.

    Son: John2:18 “What sign do You show us as your authority for doing these things?” 19 Jesus answered them, “Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.” 20 The Jews then said, “It took forty-six years to build this temple, and will You raise it up in three days?” 21 But He was speaking of the temple of His body. 22 So when He was raised from the dead, His disciples remembered that He said this; and they believed the Scripture and the word which Jesus had spoken."

    John10:17 "For this reason the Father loves Me, because I lay down My life so that I may take it again. 18 No one has taken it away from Me, but I lay it down on My own initiative [see Philippians 2:5ff]. I have authority to lay it down, and I have authority to take it up again.


    Father: Galatians 1 "Paul, an apostle (not sent from men nor through the agency of man, but through Jesus Christ and God the Father, who raised Him from the dead),"

    Spirit: Romans 8:11 "But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you"

    God: Acts 5:30 "The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom you had put to death by hanging Him on a cross."
    "Said I'm not what I ought to be, but I'm better, better than I used to be, I'm gettin better all the time" - Blind Boys of Alabama Ephesians 4:22-24 NASB ..."that, in reference to your former manner of life, you lay aside the old self, which is being corrupted in accordance with the lusts of deceit, and that you be renewed in the spirit of your mind, and put on the new self, which in the likeness of God has been created in righteousness and holiness of the truth"

  9. #34
    Senior Member MichaellS's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Boots View Post
    So you hold three beings.
    I hold to what everyone else strives to achieve, careful clarity for what God says of Himself in heaven and earth:

    7For there are three that bear witness in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit: and these three are one.

    8And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.
    (1 John 5:7,8)

    TB: The SON WAS BEGOTTEN , MADE, BORN, ,.
    Yes He was, but you mistakenly don’t apply the “witness” (v7) of Christ in heaven before His birth:


    58Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am.” (John 8:58)

    14The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. (John 1:14)

    5Have this att.i.tude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus, 6who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, 7but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men. (Philippians 2:5-7)

    "Now, Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was. (John 17:5)

    Seeing He had union with the Father “before the world was” (v5), and took the “form” to be made the object of first of all witnessed in heaven, then followed by being witnessed on earth, wreaks havoc on the report of the earth only origins position. For how else could He take, and how else could He empty, and how else could He sustain equality if He did not first exist, possess and sustain the open declaration of equality with God?

    Therefore, this verse was referring to the initial incarnation (“being made” (v7)), and not some later time of earthly maturity, capitalizing on the pure approach of preexistence.

  10. #35
    Senior Member MichaellS's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MacG View Post
    Maybe I see a clue though that maybe you er because you see it as a Pagan godhead which were three gods. But what you may not be willing to admit is that Trinitarians hold what the scriptures declare that there is One God and that the Son Raised Himself, the Father raised Jesus from the dead, the Holy Spirit raised Him from the dead and God raised him from the dead.

    Son: John2:18 “What sign do You show us as your authority for doing these things?” 19 Jesus answered them, “Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.” 20 The Jews then said, “It took forty-six years to build this temple, and will You raise it up in three days?” 21 But He was speaking of the temple of His body. 22 So when He was raised from the dead, His disciples remembered that He said this; and they believed the Scripture and the word which Jesus had spoken."

    John10:17 "For this reason the Father loves Me, because I lay down My life so that I may take it again. 18 No one has taken it away from Me, but I lay it down on My own initiative [see Philippians 2:5ff]. I have authority to lay it down, and I have authority to take it up again.


    Father: Galatians 1 "Paul, an apostle (not sent from men nor through the agency of man, but through Jesus Christ and God the Father, who raised Him from the dead),"

    Spirit: Romans 8:11 "But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you"

    God: Acts 5:30 "The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom you had put to death by hanging Him on a cross."
    Along the lines of emphasis, I would say this is probable correctness in Oneness statement form.

    I had a *** to do for a Oneness preacher at his new meeting facility about 30yrs ago. He needed some advertising on his gl*** door. Not ten minutes into my (a total stranger to him) work and the discussion gravitated to the trinity. I voiced my position, what did I say so badly to receive this, , he fired back in adamant end–of-message preacher tone, “!!!! HEY, I’VE RESEARCHED THIS !!!!”

    I have a feeling that each of us understands the other’s position quite well. Difference being is one carries a bit of a chip that likely is shroud with an anticipation for delivery gains. I for one have no such inclination to state over and over with contention. If previous strides are chalked as victories on unstable users in the word, I could understand would over time blur the already skewed orientation that exists.

    I have purposefully distanced myself from the other threads you have going though I was happy to see the fruits of the Spirit raised. I don’t always offer as the next guy, but if I do, I try to keep in pace, in peace and not in part, but thorough, because that is what I hope for from others. But I know it is very hard for anyone to tailor such responses. But often, that is where we see the lack of our opposition is it not, , when they skip right over first to parade on home plate. My history of comment has its problems too. We just move on as we trust He opens up to us each door of opportunity.

  11. #36
    Tom Boots
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    Jesus is, for there is not two others with him, he fulfills all and the Son will give all authority unto his God and Father.

    Jesus is LORD GOD ALMIGHTY and the man Christ Jesus, there is distinction, but not separate persons.

  12. #37
    Tom Boots
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    THE SON DID NOT RAISE HIMSELF FROM THE DEAD! in Trinity doctrine, it toooooooook three persons, he couldn't do it himself.

    THREE of your gods, not really Jesus doing it.

  13. #38
    Senior Member MacG's Avatar
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    Which Jesus was speaking, the human or the God? :"19 Jesus answered them, “Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up."
    "Said I'm not what I ought to be, but I'm better, better than I used to be, I'm gettin better all the time" - Blind Boys of Alabama Ephesians 4:22-24 NASB ..."that, in reference to your former manner of life, you lay aside the old self, which is being corrupted in accordance with the lusts of deceit, and that you be renewed in the spirit of your mind, and put on the new self, which in the likeness of God has been created in righteousness and holiness of the truth"

  14. #39
    Senior Member johnd's Avatar
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    If I understand the scriptures all three raised Jesus from the grave.
    The Bible is its own best commentary.
    Prophecy is the word of God
    which sometimes speaks of future... sometimes of the present... sometimes of the past.
    A prophet is the tool God uses.
    It's not about the prophet, but about the God who uses the prophet to speak his word...

  15. #40
    Senior Member johnd's Avatar
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    And John 17:3 refers to the individual in the Godhead Jesus was speaking to and himself (if you'll keep reading) but he is not just God and not just man so when speaking to the Father or the Holy Ghost he would have said the only true God and Jesus Christ (the God / man).
    The Bible is its own best commentary.
    Prophecy is the word of God
    which sometimes speaks of future... sometimes of the present... sometimes of the past.
    A prophet is the tool God uses.
    It's not about the prophet, but about the God who uses the prophet to speak his word...

  16. #41
    alanmolstad
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    Quote Originally Posted by jean View Post
    ActR,
    The Trinity is three persons, one God.
    The Father is God. Gal.1:1
    The son is God. Jn.1:1
    The Holy Spirit is God. Acts 5:3-4
    Co-equal. One God. Isa.43:10-11, Mal.3:6-7

    Jesus is God robed in flesh.
    The Trinity is also a mystery. We can't understand it fully.
    We have the scriptures that reveals part of this mystery, from there we walk by faith.
    Please read the above p***ages.

    God bless,
    jean





    There is one God


    Nice post!

  17. #42
    kathlynwells
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    Quote Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post
    Nice post!
    Yes, God is one. You say the Godhead is a mystery and we must walk by faith with no understanding of the Godhead.

    Romans 1:19-20... for God has shown it to them. For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse.

    Colossians 2:2 - ... that their hearts may be encouraged, being knit together in love, and attaining to all riches of full ***urance of understanding, to the knowledge of the mystery of God, both of the Father and of Christ.

    If your doctrine provides no understanding of the Godhead, which is the divine nature of God, I suggest you return to your prayer closet with fasting for a full revelation of who Jesus is.

  18. #43
    Senior Member johnd's Avatar
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    God doesn't get high.
    The Bible is its own best commentary.
    Prophecy is the word of God
    which sometimes speaks of future... sometimes of the present... sometimes of the past.
    A prophet is the tool God uses.
    It's not about the prophet, but about the God who uses the prophet to speak his word...

  19. #44
    Senior Member johnd's Avatar
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    No, seriously...

    Each person (individual) in the Godhead holds a unique office.

    The Father holds all authority.

    The Son is the kinsman redeemer of mankind and the creator of all things created in the beginning.

    The Holy Spirit is the author of the Bible (2 Peter 1:20-21) and the revealer of truth / testifier of Christ / the Divine reporter.

    As far as equality goes all three are equal. The Father is in authority which the Son and the Spirit submit as should we all.

    But this does not make him better than the Son or the Spirit.

    Walter Martin used to say the President is greater than I but he will tell you before anyone else that he is not better than I am...

    Good example of authority and not being better / higher (as the OP says) than anyone else being considered.
    The Bible is its own best commentary.
    Prophecy is the word of God
    which sometimes speaks of future... sometimes of the present... sometimes of the past.
    A prophet is the tool God uses.
    It's not about the prophet, but about the God who uses the prophet to speak his word...

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