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  1. #1
    ActRaiser
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    I also know that the Holy Spirit has 'stopped' my mouth on occasion in the past when I have felt like commenting on the 'error of ****sexual practise within a loving relationship' to ****sexual people- he has faced me with my own shortcomings, in such a way of conviction, that I am struck dumb and very humble.
    Sometimes the best correction we can give others is by example of our love.

    That doesn't mean we are necessarily wrong.

  2. #2
    John T
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    Default What is the shape of the quadrilateral?

    The problem with the imposition of a geometric figure as a hermeneutic tool is that it often makes human reason on par with Scripture. It is not, it is subordinate to, and often at odds with Holy Spirit.

    That equilateral also ***umes that God stuttered when he wrote the Bible. That is not the case.

    Therefore, as warm and fuzzy as your ideas seem to be, they are in direct opposition to what God clearly stated. The ONLY way that you can have legitimate authority to mitigate what God stated is to find a direct statement when Good said "Oopsie! I really did not mean that."

  3. #3
    Columcille
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    Quote Originally Posted by ActRaiser View Post
    Sometimes the best correction we can give others is by example of our love.

    That doesn't mean we are necessarily wrong.
    Christ loved people, yet he was also confrontational. He certainly did something to offend people to point of being crucified on the cross, and it wasn't because he hated people or deserved it. He was incarnate love. Love sometimes means to rebuke and discipline. I think Walter Martin was also confrontational. I have been listening to the mp3 of his banquet speech... and he discusses this particular point about confrontation in writing.

    In regards to CleoSquare's statement. Hearing about something can be hearsay or some sort of ***umption. ****sexuality in the bible does not distinguish wether there is some sort of platonic love or even of an abuse of power. It pretty much states its an abomination and to stone to death people that practice it. Obviously, when the law was written... it did not specify the intent only to people who abused authority, but to everyone under the covenant. I should rather see something more concrete, some scholarly linguistic, archeological, or textual criticism of historical documents to establish what you are trying to present.


    As far as JohnT has stated. I also do not necessarily agree with the quadrilateral model. However, sometimes it is necessary to understand or attempt to understand the argument of your opposition. In some of my college cl***es, the professor may have you write your own persuasive paper on any given subject, then make you write another persuasive paper from the opposite perspective. It is an academic benefit to do so. My cl*** on Milton was amazing in this regards. We read "L'Allegro" and "Il Penseroso;" L'Allegro starts with "Hence loathed Melancholy" and "Il Penseroso" starts off with "Hence vain deluding joys." They are both fascinating pieces of poetry, but my point is twofold in that (1) we allow people to establish some sort of authority and then stick them to the premises and conclusions of the same-self authority and (2) we ourselves strive to be as St. Francis of ***isi's prayer for peace "to understand, than to be understood." Perhaps we can say further like St. James writes to be slow to speak and quick to listen. Walter Martin does a grand example in the "Kingdom of the Cults" by quoting the Cult's own authoritative writings and reasonings to demonstrate its contradiction. In this case, we have some sort of Christian p***ing off a premise that ****sexuality is ok in certain instances, yet hasn't really researched in terms of his authority model to see his own biase and presumptions. Give it time, they will be more than willing to give us the rope from which their ideas will hang in its own noose.

  4. #4
    ActRaiser
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    I should rather see something more concrete, some scholarly linguistic, archeological, or textual criticism of historical documents to establish what you are trying to present.
    I do sometimes have problems with clarity, but at Ephesus, I think it was, one of the Apostles brought more people to Christ through living through example, rather than arguing with the local idolators.

    You have to understand, that I'm not just saying a warm and fuzzy speech when I say we need to be a good example for others. Part of being a good example to others is to mention that ****sexuality is one of the sins that banned humanity from Heaven before they were save.

    They can't lose their salvation due to ****sexuality, but they most certainly can lose their rewards. I know that much.

  5. #5
    Columcille
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    Quote Originally Posted by ActRaiser View Post

    They can't lose their salvation due to ****sexuality, but they most certainly can lose their rewards. I know that much.
    Please provide Scripture. For instance:

    Lev. 20:13 (NAB)- If a man lies with a male as with a woman, both of them shall be put to death for their abominable deed; they have forfeited their lives.

    1 Cor 6:9-10 (NAB)

    2 3 Do you not know that the unjust will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators nor idolaters nor adulterers nor boy pros***utes nor sodomites
    10
    nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor robbers will inherit the kingdom of God.

    Footnotes:

    2 [9-10] A catalogue of typical vices that exclude from the kingdom of God and that should be excluded from God's church. Such lists (cf 1 Cor 5:10) reflect the common moral sensibility of the New Testament period.

    3 [9] The Greek word translated as boy pros***utes may refer to catamites, i.e., boys or young men who were kept for purposes of pros***ution, a practice not uncommon in the Greco-Roman world. In Greek mythology this was the function of Ganymede, the "cupbearer of the gods," whose Latin name was Catamitus. The term translated Sodomites refers to adult males who indulged in ****sexual practices with such boys. See similar condemnations of such practices in Romans 1:26-27; 1 Tim 1:10.

    Sodomite: ****nokoites. The words according to Dr. Thayer mean "a man" and "a bed." "One who lies with a male as with a female, a sodomite." Strong's numbering 733.

    It seems clear to me... Scripture says they will not enter the kingdom. Hence, there is no salvation for their lot. You will have to demonstrate otherwise. Such sins tend to be behavioral and reoccuring, even unrepentant.
    Last edited by Columcille; 03-25-2009 at 06:18 AM.

  6. #6
    ActRaiser
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    Think about it for a moment.... I only need to produce scripture that Christians do not lose their salvation.

    I need clarification from you that as a Christian, anyone can lose their salvation. Those who come to Christ will not be thrown out. Jesus said that, I only need to hunt for that scripture.

    1 Corinthians 6:9-10 (New American Standard Bible)

    9Or (A)do you not know that the unrighteous will not (B)inherit the kingdom of God? (C)Do not be deceived; (D)neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor [a]effeminate, nor ****sexuals,

    10nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will (E)inherit the kingdom of God.


    This is true, but these are sins which barred sinners from entering Heaven in the first place. Those who sin will have their sins blotted out because of Christ's blood atonement. The Bema Seat is of consequence to Christians because of our deeds and misdeeds.

    I put forth ****sexuality as something that is scripturally forbidden, and a sin, wrong, etcetera, but I fail to see how Leviticus matters to non-Jews.

  7. #7
    Columcille
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    Default Catholic Courage and Exodus International

    Quote Originally Posted by ActRaiser View Post
    Think about it for a moment.... I only need to produce scripture that Christians do not lose their salvation.

    I need clarification from you that as a Christian, anyone can lose their salvation. Those who come to Christ will not be thrown out. Jesus said that, I only need to hunt for that scripture.

    1 Corinthians 6:9-10 (New American Standard Bible)

    9Or (A)do you not know that the unrighteous will not (B)inherit the kingdom of God? (C)Do not be deceived; (D)neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor [a]effeminate, nor ****sexuals,

    10nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will (E)inherit the kingdom of God.


    This is true, but these are sins which barred sinners from entering Heaven in the first place. Those who sin will have their sins blotted out because of Christ's blood atonement. The Bema Seat is of consequence to Christians because of our deeds and misdeeds.

    I put forth ****sexuality as something that is scripturally forbidden, and a sin, wrong, etcetera, but I fail to see how Leviticus matters to non-Jews.

    ActRaiser, one must qualify in full detail what cons***utes a Christian from one that is just a professing one. If we stand people in a line-up, without knowing their actions, deeds, and core spoken values, it is impossible for us to say that they are Christian or not. The verse I gave is a list from which the Church would excommunicate people who practiced such. What kind of a Christian would you suppose it is who claims to be Christian, but in every detail affirms Buddhism's tenets in direct opposition to the core tenets of Christendom? Either they are very confused, or they are intentionally p***ing themselves off for a host of reasons from gaining acceptance to undermining the churches from which they are entering into. In some manner, the influence and calls of tolerance has lead to moral relativism inside the churches. In the same manner, ****sexuality has always been denied in the longstanding Tradition. How can a ****sexual be a Christian, unless they deny themselves via repentence and practice chasity and encouraging other ****sexuals to leave the lifestyle... in short, no longer being ****sexuals. If your position is that ****sexuality is likened to alcoholism, so at the next AA meeting or the next upcoming ****sexual's anonymous meeting people are claiming to be ****sexuals... I could possibly understand it... but unfortunetly, the only type of ****sexual anonymous is done by groups affiliated or modeling with Exodus International or Catholic Courage. The problem with saying one is a ****sexual and a Christian is that our society is filled with "Gay pride" parades and so it does not have the same stigma as alcoholism.

    You are going to have to do more than just give an unrepentant sinner cloak in Christian clothing, singing Christian jargoon the benefit of the doubt that they are Christian when it flies in the face of Scripture and Tradition. Please present your case in like manner rather than ***uming the possibility that you can be Christain and a ****sexual at the same time.

  8. #8
    ActRaiser
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    Quote Originally Posted by Columcille View Post
    You are going to have to do more than just give an unrepentant sinner cloak in Christian clothing, singing Christian jargoon the benefit of the doubt that they are Christian when it flies in the face of Scripture and Tradition. Please present your case in like manner rather than ***uming the possibility that you can be Christain and a ****sexual at the same time.
    You can be. To give an example, Solomon was a rampant luster. He was perhaps one of the biggest sinners in the entire Bible, but he was definitely on God's side. However even for Solomon there were consequences for his sinning.

    How can a ****sexual be a Christian, unless they deny themselves via repentence and practice chasity and encouraging other ****sexuals to leave the lifestyle... in short, no longer being ****sexuals.
    I will study the scriptures more to give a deeper answer into this question, but just understand where I'm coming from. I don't acknowledge ****sexuality as an acceptable life style, but I do believe even unrepentant sinners can get into Heaven.

    That doesn't mean they will have as much fun there as those who lived godly lives. There is evidence for a degree of reward in both Heaven and Hell

  9. #9
    Columcille
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    Default 3 Kings 11

    Quote Originally Posted by ActRaiser View Post
    You can be. To give an example, Solomon was a rampant luster. He was perhaps one of the biggest sinners in the entire Bible, but he was definitely on God's side. However even for Solomon there were consequences for his sinning.



    I will study the scriptures more to give a deeper answer into this question, but just understand where I'm coming from. I don't acknowledge ****sexuality as an acceptable life style, but I do believe even unrepentant sinners can get into Heaven.

    That doesn't mean they will have as much fun there as those who lived godly lives. There is evidence for a degree of reward in both Heaven and Hell
    So are you saying Solomon was a ****sexual, bisexual? Please provide the text proof. Daniel commited adultery, but I do not see evidence of Solomon doing the same. At any rate, David repented and faced the temporal punishments and consequences of his sin. I do not know if Solomon was "saved" at any rate when he started committing idol worship for his wives" sake. He seems to have forgotten the God of his youth. 3 Kings 11.40 states "Solomon therefore sought to kill Jeroboam: but he arose, and fled into Egypt to Sesac the king of Egypt, and was in Egypt till the death of Solomon." Solomon commited idolatry and forsake God. He apostasized. I am not sure how far you want to go in attempting to say Solomon is a Christian? Much less say he made it to heaven. At least David repented from his gross sin, it does not mention that Solomon did the same.
    Last edited by Columcille; 03-25-2009 at 05:07 PM. Reason: Changed adultery to idolatry

  10. #10
    asdf
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    Quote Originally Posted by ActRaiser View Post
    You can be. To give an example, Solomon was a rampant luster. He was perhaps one of the biggest sinners in the entire Bible, but he was definitely on God's side. However even for Solomon there were consequences for his sinning.

    I will study the scriptures more to give a deeper answer into this question, but just understand where I'm coming from. I don't acknowledge ****sexuality as an acceptable life style, but I do believe even unrepentant sinners can get into Heaven.

    That doesn't mean they will have as much fun there as those who lived godly lives. There is evidence for a degree of reward in both Heaven and Hell
    I greatly appreciate your perspective, ActRaiser. Columcille has earlier quoted 1 Cor 6.9-10: "Do you not know that the unjust will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators nor idolaters nor adulterers nor boy pros***utes nor sodomites nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor robbers will inherit the kingdom of God."

    I'll discuss my interpretation of these verses at a later time, but for now I'd like to support what you say by pointing out that even if the words translated here as "boy pros***utes" and "sodomites" could be taken to refer to a modern-day gay person in a committed, monogamous, lifelong relationship, Paul here puts these categories of "sinners" all on the same level.

    That is, "adulterers", "boy pros***utes" and "sodomites" are no more in danger of exclusion from the kingdom of God than the greedy and slanderers. If we're going to especially pick out gay and lesbian people, we'd better be similarly prepared to condemn consumerism and gluttony. (These things strike me personally much closer to home than the list of sexual sins, and in my estimation they're much more widespread...)

  11. #11
    ActRaiser
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    ::Nods to asdf::

    Then to Columcille:
    I'm not saying Solomon was a gay or bi man. I'm saying that sexual sins are all sexual sins. He very clearly lived a hypersexualized life with many professional *****s.

    Furthermore, Solomon has seemed to lay down Prophets for God, and he blessed Israel extremely deeply during his life time. Given God's pleasure towards people who treat the Jews well, it is scripturally possible, if not very probable that Solomon was saved.

    In fact, many Jews were saved by Jesus before he was ever born in a Stable. Moses, Abraham, and the others were saved by Jesus by looking towards a Messiah. They just didn't know it would be a carpenter from Nazareth.
    Last edited by ActRaiser; 03-25-2009 at 05:16 PM.

  12. #12
    Columcille
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    Quote Originally Posted by ActRaiser View Post
    ::Nods to asdf::

    Then to Columcille:
    I'm not saying Solomon was a gay or bi man. I'm saying that sexual sins are all sexual sins. He very clearly lived a hypersexualized life with many professional *****s.

    Furthermore, Solomon has seemed to lay down Prophets for God, and he blessed Israel extremely deeply during his life time. Given God's pleasure towards people who treat the Jews well, it is scripturally possible, if not very probable that Solomon was saved.

    In fact, many Jews were saved by Jesus before he was ever born in a Stable. Moses, Abraham, and the others were saved by Jesus by looking towards a Messiah. They just didn't know it would be a carpenter from Nazareth.
    I quoted 3 Kings 11. I guess that is 1 Kings 11. I was using my Douay-Rheims when I quoted it. He was in the end into idolatry. Your lack references to Solomon's apostasy. He may have built the temple, he may have done a lot of good, but in the end... I am uncertain as to the state of his soul. Since he wanted to kill a prophet of God, Jeraboam, I do not think he was repentent. I would be very weary to quote him as an example. Christians are called to a life of repentance. Hence, you cannot be a practicing ****sexual and a practicing Christian. The law in Leviticus does not give distinction to a loving ****sexual relationship or an abusive manipulative one. It states it without condition to kill them both in the theocracy. As far as Moses, Abraham, or the so-called others, you need to demonstrate that they were ****sexuals, unrepentant in that, and God calls them righteous. You are not going to get that with the patriarchs in the O.T. nor the Prophets. Dig deeper. I was hoping for a pro-God position for ****sexuality, not a negation.

  13. #13
    ActRaiser
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    Who says ****sexuals need to be an example? Like A pointed out, a rampant womanizer is no better.

  14. #14
    Columcille
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    Quote Originally Posted by ActRaiser View Post
    Who says ****sexuals need to be an example? Like A pointed out, a rampant womanizer is no better.
    It is not a point to compare apples to oranges. The subject is a call for a quadrilateral support of a pro-God defense of the ****sexual lifestyle. Behavioral sins do affect the mentality of the people to the point that they justify their behavior. The alcoholic blames their loved ones for driving them to drink. The slanderer seeks to elivate themselves by cutting others down, the glutton seeks to feed their appe***e. It is the state of mind where there is no repentant desire to end the behavior. The glutton, knowing he is fat should not desire to stay that way. The same goes for ****sexuality, and all the behavioral mortal sins. What is worse is that you have professing Christians supporting the lifestyle as the Bishop Gene Robinson in the Episcopal Church USA. You have just recently a Lutheran faction now embracing it. Really, is this the type of defense you want to justify that lifestyle? It is not a defense, it is an an***hesis. If God if for ****sexual marriages, is allowable for Christians to participate in it... then present a thesis, not an an***hesis. Use your quadrilateral.
    Last edited by Columcille; 03-25-2009 at 06:36 PM.

  15. #15
    asdf
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    Quote Originally Posted by Columcille View Post
    It is not a point to compare apples to oranges. The subject is a call for a quadrilateral support of a pro-God defense of the ****sexual lifestyle. Behavioral sins do affect the mentality of the people to the point that they justify their behavior. The alcoholic blames their loved ones for driving them to drink. The slanderer seeks to elivate themselves by cutting others down, the glutton seeks to feed their appe***e. It is the state of mind where there is no repentant desire to end the behavior. The glutton, knowing he is fat should not desire to stay that way. The same goes for ****sexuality, and all the behavioral mortal sins. What is worse is that you have professing Christians supporting the lifestyle as the Bishop Gene Robinson in the Episcopal Church USA. You have just recently a Lutheran faction now embracing it. Really, is this the type of defense you want to justify that lifestyle?
    I think you're still not getting ActRaiser's point. What he/she (sorry, haven't met you yet ) is saying is precisely to compare apples to apples. You yourself cited Paul in putting "****sexuality" on the very same terms as greed and slander.

    So if you're denying that "salvation" is achievable for an unrepentant ****sexual person, you'd better be ready to bar the kingdom of heaven to an unrepentant greedy person.

    (Quotes on "salvation" because I think you're needlessly conflating "salvation" with "going to heaven after you die". I don't take that to be a necessary Christian view, but that's a topic for another day.)

  16. #16
    Columcille
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    Quote Originally Posted by asdf View Post
    I think you're still not getting ActRaiser's point. What he/she (sorry, haven't met you yet ) is saying is precisely to compare apples to apples. You yourself cited Paul in putting "****sexuality" on the very same terms as greed and slander.

    So if you're denying that "salvation" is achievable for an unrepentant ****sexual person, you'd better be ready to bar the kingdom of heaven to an unrepentant greedy person.

    (Quotes on "salvation" because I think you're needlessly conflating "salvation" with "going to heaven after you die". I don't take that to be a necessary Christian view, but that's a topic for another day.)
    Rightly so. If unrepentant, with no desire to change... you bet, I'd bar them also. However, we don't have that with the welcoming and affirming Protestant churches, do we?!

  17. #17
    ActRaiser
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    However, we don't have that with the welcoming and affirming Protestant churches, do we?!
    Pointing fingers at rival denominations is not quite conductive to good behavior within the Church. The entire Church is to blame, and there are some things that we evidently won't be repentant for even when Jesus receives us in New Zion. That doesn't mean that we will die and be condemned to Hell.

    Some of us believe in the Rapture... When Jesus takes us home. Won't it be ashamed, that if when Jesus comes, he finds men in bed together?

    They wouldn't go, but they wouldn't go to Hell either. There is a lot of negative consequences from sin. Hell is only one, although it is the worst.

  18. #18
    Columcille
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    Default James 1.13-15

    Quote Originally Posted by ActRaiser View Post
    Pointing fingers at rival denominations is not quite conductive to good behavior within the Church. The entire Church is to blame, and there are some things that we evidently won't be repentant for even when Jesus receives us in New Zion. That doesn't mean that we will die and be condemned to Hell.

    Some of us believe in the Rapture... When Jesus takes us home. Won't it be ashamed, that if when Jesus comes, he finds men in bed together?

    They wouldn't go, but they wouldn't go to Hell either. There is a lot of negative consequences from sin. Hell is only one, although it is the worst.
    ActRaiser, I am only speaking the truth that there are welcoming and affirming churches of the ****sexual lifestyle. The Catholic Church and Orthodox Church do not affirm it. The ECUSA affirms it, I was once an Episcopalian. It affected me very much, and I still pray for the Anglican crisis. It certainly does not help out the mainstream responsible Protestant, like the Southern Baptists, or the numerous independent churches either. So how is it "bad behavior?" Are we to make the same ***umption of Jesus for calling people names or driving out the money changers? There is a time to call out sin for what it is. I can be sympathetic for ****sexuals that want to find Christ, but don't expect me to affirm the lifestyle. Affiliating with the lifestyle at this present time is a source of "gay pride" and Christians, the repentent former ****sexual, better wise up and stop calling themselves ****sexuals. It is misconstrued by others that God made them such and approves of it. It is a perversion of the flesh, a defect from the sin nature. James states the obvious:

    Let no man, when he is tempted, say that he is tempted by God. For God is not a tempter of evils, and he tempteth no man. But every man is tempted by his own concupiscence, being drawn away and allured. Then when concupiscence hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin. But sin when it is completed, begetteth death. James 1.13-15.

  19. #19
    ActRaiser
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    Let no man, when he is tempted, say that he is tempted by God. For God is not a tempter of evils, and he tempteth no man. But every man is tempted by his own concupiscence, being drawn away and allured. Then when concupiscence hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin. But sin when it is completed, begetteth death. James 1.13-15
    This is a good way to prove a ****sexual isn't made gay by God.

    But, you could also argue that Jesus healed the blind man because he wanted to prove his power of good over evil.

    The same could be true with Jesus and ****sexuality.

    Protestant Churches do tend to support the gay life style. Some clergy in the Vatican don't think Jesus is the Son of God.

    The entire Church is weird, bizarre, and a zombified creature compared to what it was centuries ago.

  20. #20
    Columcille
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    Quote Originally Posted by ActRaiser View Post
    This is a good way to prove a ****sexual isn't made gay by God.

    But, you could also argue that Jesus healed the blind man because he wanted to prove his power of good over evil.

    The same could be true with Jesus and ****sexuality.

    Protestant Churches do tend to support the gay life style. Some clergy in the Vatican don't think Jesus is the Son of God.

    Clergy are also human and can error big time both morally and doctrinally. It is the Holy Spirit acting in the living Magesterium that is important. It is the Church historically declaring the moral and doctrinal truth in its authoritative manner that is important. I am unaware of any clergy by name in the Vatican that supports your statement. So firstly, be specific in citing whom you are refering.

    As far as your first statement, I believe ****sexuality is derived from an injured psyche. No scientist has yet been able to identify a child as ****sexual in the womb. A deformity, as the transgender might have, is rare, but does not affect what I am here talking about. (I bring it up only because it is an obvious distraction that somebody is going to throw in for the red-herring). Test conducted on ****sexuals that was released in the Times magazine a long time ago in the 90s had some confounding variables. It still remains unknown by scientists who test such hypothesis as a baby being born gay is viable.
    Your second statement I would not argue from. Firstly, such deformity as blindness or deafness have no moral implications. You might on the transgender, but since these are rare and obvious deformities... it lacks the same catagory as the ****sexual. You could argue what ifs about each and every case involving the transgender, but you would go nowhere in terms of the ****sexual.

  21. #21
    Jet
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    Quote Originally Posted by Columcille
    The question now is... what is your thoughts on experience in relation to ****sexuality?
    I'm sorry I've taken so long to answer your question. Here I go. I'll relate my own experiences in relation to ****sexuality.

    I grew up as anti-****sexual. My church tradition told me ****sexuality was a sin, and so that's what I believed. Unfortunately for my church, ****sexuality had a stigma of being "weird" and "gross". I inherited this at***ude of gays also. I remember abhorring a certain boy in high school because he was gay.

    I grew closer to Christ as I got older and as my commitment to him became stronger, and I gained from him comp***ion enough to treat gays civilly, as humans. Once I was open to friendship with gays, I found that they weren't as gross and weird as I had previously thought. In fact, they were quite like normal humans.

    I'll also include that I did not believe ****sexual orientation to be natural. I believed that it was some self-induced perversion (perhaps available to those who were really sinful). But as I began to listen to ****sexuals and their stories, I changed my belief to include room for "being born gay". (By the way, Columcille, you said earlier that "No scientist has yet been able to identify a child as ****sexual in the womb." Can scientists identify children as heterosexual in the womb?)

    Anyway, eventually I met gay Christians. And like before, they seemed a lot like normal people. They seemed to be devout and full of spiritual fruit. In fact, I talked to one gay about his relationship with God, and how God speaks to him, and he described God's voice and spoken content suspiciously similar to my own experiences with God's communication with me.

    In any case, my intuition did not present "red flags" concerning the character of this particular gay person. Often with other lifestyles of sin, bad fruit manifests after a period of time. Eventually I began to question the beliefs I had been brought up with.

    ---------

    Now, on to the pillar of Reason.

    Often it's easy to ascertain why the Bible forbids certain actions. It is easy to see the damage that unforgiveness deals to relationships, for instance. Living a life of unforgiveness undermines the ability one has to effectively live as a blessing as a member of the kingdom of God.

    It is not so clear why the Bible would forbid practicing ****sexuality. If two gays lived in union with one another in a monogamous, emotionally-healthy, mutually-lifting, committed, respectful relationship, what (logically) will keep them from being united to God, able to be used for his purposes?

    --------

    Quote Originally Posted by Columcille
    Jet, a foundation that is laid does not need balancing-out. We need to fix our reasoning and experiences to the foundation. Consistency is a hallmark of truth. It is easy to point to Scripture and we can point to Tradition, though it can be more difficult finding those ecumenical canon laws and solid ex cathedra statements or looking through the numerous Church father writings, papal encyclicals, and writings of the doctors of the Church.
    Columcille, I don't understand what you've said. I don't know what you were referring to in my post (if you were referring to something), or what your point is. Will you clarify? Since you directed this at me, I thought I might ask for clarification. However, I understand that the conversation has moved beyond this, so it's alright with me if you refuse.

    Quote Originally Posted by Columcille
    I partly agree with your ***essment, so far as Trinity has already mentioned. However, you have failed to tie this in with the subject of ****sexuality.
    Ah, forgive me if it seemed completely off topic. I suppose I was merely defining terms, laying some groundwork for communicating different forms of thought...

    Quote Originally Posted by Columcille
    Please provide the text proof.
    ...
    I was hoping for a pro-God position for ****sexuality, not a negation.
    ...
    It is the Church historically declaring the moral and doctrinal truth in its authoritative manner that is important. I am unaware of any clergy by name in the Vatican that supports your statement.
    Forgive me if I'm reading into things, but I pick up from your posture, Columcille, that you expect a pro-gay thesis to be made on your terms, within your ruleset, one that fits into your perspective.

    This is partly why I had my tangent on bias. There exists other ways of seeing the world than yours. But you seem to expect that other ways are not as valid.

    On another note, Columcille, I admire that you're trying to keep the thread on original topic, even if I do feel like I'm treading on eggshells.

    Quote Originally Posted by Columcille
    As far as Tradition is concerned, it applies to moral and doctrinal positions that is without error, not the science or the particular -ism from which the apologist is using.
    Again, I don't think I understand. It would help if you used proper grammar and readable sentence structure. Do you mean that Tradition, according to Wesley's Quadrilateral, consists of doctrinal statements only? If so, I urge you to reconsider your criteria.

  22. #22
    Columcille
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    Jet, there were certain things that you said which I think Trinity did not pick up. The Catholic position is quite comp***ionate, but does not affirm the lifestyle as authentically Christian. Perhaps Trinity's eyes are open now that you have stated your position.

    But let us make clear by Scripture what is its purpose... 2 Tim. 3.16 states the following:

    All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for trainin in righteousness; that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work.

    Now, if you hold to a quadrilateral support of Scripture, Tradition, Reason, and Experience to determine what God has to say on the subject of ****sexuality... then by all means... use the Scripture for its purpose to teach what you say is true. So far, it seems only experience and reasoning are your true source of affirming ****sexual acts for Christians. What ever you use for "Tradition," please start citing these sources. You haven't once used Scripture to support your position, neither have you quoted any works of your "Tradition."

  23. #23
    asdf
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    Quote Originally Posted by Columcille View Post
    Rightly so. If unrepentant, with no desire to change... you bet, I'd bar them also. However, we don't have that with the welcoming and affirming Protestant churches, do we?!
    I'm glad I don't have to live in fear of Columcille as my judge, then - for I'm certain there are areas of my life about which I will be ashamed when I stand before my Maker.

    Thankfully, I'm not afraid that [he] would deny me [his] presence based on the things I don't see about myself.

  24. #24
    Columcille
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    Quote Originally Posted by asdf View Post
    I'm glad I don't have to live in fear of Columcille as my judge, then - for I'm certain there are areas of my life about which I will be ashamed when I stand before my Maker.

    Thankfully, I'm not afraid that [he] would deny me [his] presence based on the things I don't see about myself.
    People choose their lifestyle. I am only presenting what the Scripture has to say. Your reinterpretation of it has yet to be made to the rest of us. Scripture is suppose to be one of your quadrilaterals... I suggest you use it.

  25. #25
    ActRaiser
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    Quote Originally Posted by Columcille View Post
    Really, is this the type of defense you want to justify that lifestyle? It is not a defense, it is an an***hesis. If God if for ****sexual marriages, is allowable for Christians to participate in it... then present a thesis, not an an***hesis. Use your quadrilateral.
    God is not for gay marriage. I do not justify the gay life style. I justify people who identify themselves as gay. It may seem contradictory, but I have read from the scriptures certain talking points which seem to point out that even murderers and tyrants go there. (See Nebuchednezzar) Nebuchadnezzar might not have been gay, but he was much worse than that. He even persecuted God's people, the Israelites, and demanded idolatry.

    That somewhat answers your question regarding Solomon, since Nebuchedezzar was infinitely worse.

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