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Thread: Preview of GodNeverSinned.com video project

  1. #51
    nrajeff
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    Aaron, in the interest of full disclosure, did you inform your prey, er, I mean "interviewees" of what a certain scholar thought of your "techniques" after he found out what you were doing with his responses? Or are you choosing to hide that whole story, to keep people in the dark in order to increase the probability that they will give answers that you can exploit for fame and fortune?

  2. #52
    justjo
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    Quote Originally Posted by aaronshaf View Post
    http://godneversinned.com/

    I added a lot more video interviews from General Conference weekend.

    I hope this video brings Christians to tears.
    I see something very interesting here.

    In all my posting on debate boards of Christianity vs Mormonism (no, I am not any where near a pro)... I have observed the LDS to continually say that if one wants to know what mormons believe, "ASK THE MORMONS".

    So, we have a Christian who went out with a microphone and a video camera, asks a direct question to mormons, get direct answers. Said person publishes video and now the mormons are upset...

    Aaron you just didn't ask the right question! Next time post a poll to the LDS and ask them what question you should ask before you go out. In fact, I think that is a great idea!

  3. #53
    nrajeff
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    Quote Originally Posted by justjo View Post
    Aaron you just didn't ask the right question!
    ---"The right question" will probably not be defined the same way by an objective, unbiased person, and by a zealot with some supposed "calling" to do yellow-journalism-based "investigative reporting" on a group of people he feels he must target and ridicule. I laugh when I think of the reaction you antis would have, if a pro-LDS person grabbed a camcorder and headed over to the nearest Calvary Chapel, and asked a pre-crafted, inflammatory-hoping question with only "yes or no" as an allowable answer, and then posted links to the "interview" wherever possible. you guys would hit the ceiling, with denouncements of "unethical" and "deceptive" and "un-Christian."

    Next time post a poll to the LDS and ask them what question you should ask before you go out.
    ---Aaron did something like that on CC when he tried to poll LDS people there, and they made no effort to hide what they thought of his ethics. They at least told him what kind of question he should NOT, if he wanted to act like a Christian, ask.

  4. #54
    aaronshaf
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    Libby, in Mormonism, if the Father was not like Jesus in a sacrificial mortal experience, but was still always sinless, how does that work? Within the scope of a sinless past, I haven't heard an alternative to the royal line of saviors conjecture.

  5. #55
    Libby
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    Quote Originally Posted by aaronshaf View Post
    Libby, in Mormonism, if the Father was not like Jesus in a sacrificial mortal experience, but was still always sinless, how does that work? Within the scope of a sinless past, I haven't heard an alternative to the royal line of saviors conjecture.
    I honestly don't know. I don't speculate about those kinds of things. I figure I have enough to do in studying and doing those things God has revealed. The other will be revealed when the time is right, and I just don't worry about it right now.

  6. #56
    justjo
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    Quote Originally Posted by nrajeff View Post
    ---"The right question" will probably not be defined the same way by an objective, unbiased person, and by a zealot with some supposed "calling" to do yellow-journalism-based "investigative reporting" on a group of people he feels he must target and ridicule. I laugh when I think of the reaction you antis would have, if a pro-LDS person grabbed a camcorder and headed over to the nearest Calvary Chapel, and asked a pre-crafted, inflammatory-hoping question with only "yes or no" as an allowable answer, and then posted links to the "interview" wherever possible. you guys would hit the ceiling, with denouncements of "unethical" and "deceptive" and "un-Christian."


    ---Aaron did something like that on CC when he tried to poll LDS people there, and they made no effort to hide what they thought of his ethics. They at least told him what kind of question he should NOT, if he wanted to act like a Christian, ask.
    I listened to the video a few times Jeff... can you tell me where Aaron was deceptive in his questions? It doesn't matter what people say or think, what matters is getting to the truth of the matter and some people aren't going to like that exposure. Which most of you are proving here.

    The fact is, Aaron went to the LDS people to get answers, just as all of you here suggest Christians do... so if the answers make you uncomfortable, look to your religion there lies the problem.

  7. #57
    Libby
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    The deception is not in what is portrayed, but rather in how it's portrayed and the impression that is given. There is an overall perception given that this is a common belief among Latter-day Saints (which I don't, personally, believe is true...not from my own experience). I don't think Aaron has enough of a sampling to generalize this to the larger LDS population (not even nearly). Also, regardless of what these five or six people say they believe is "possible", this is not LDS doctrine and it is not taught in the church.

  8. #58
    HickPreacher
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    Libby notes--
    The deception is not in what is portrayed, but rather in how it's portrayed and the impression that is given. There is an overall perception given that this is a common belief among Latter-day Saints (which I don't, personally, believe is true...not from my own experience). I don't think Aaron has enough of a sampling to generalize this to the larger LDS population (not even nearly). Also, regardless of what these five or six people say they believe is "possible", this is not LDS doctrine and it is not taught in the church.
    It is true that this is not a scientific study of overall LDS opinion. In the latest version there are more than five or six people.

    Also because the LDS Population has various levels of understanding on LDS Ultimate teachings, a general opinion may or may not reflect what the LDS Church ultimately wishes to claim about God within its inner circle of endowed members.

    The idea that God was once a mortal man, and that humans to become creator Gods -- and are thus Gods in Embryo --- has indeed been taught in LDS Sunday School from official LDS endorsed materials. Online documentation exists shows this is factual.

    YouTube documentation pic of this teaching from official LDS Sunday School Manual

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KTDe3...e=channel_page

  9. #59
    justjo
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    Quote Originally Posted by Libby View Post
    The deception is not in what is portrayed, but rather in how it's portrayed and the impression that is given. There is an overall perception given that this is a common belief among Latter-day Saints (which I don't, personally, believe is true...not from my own experience). I don't think Aaron has enough of a sampling to generalize this to the larger LDS population (not even nearly). Also, regardless of what these five or six people say they believe is "possible", this is not LDS doctrine and it is not taught in the church.
    Hi Libby! I agree, I would also say that as a former LDS, this is exactly as I was taught. God was once a man, it is all part of the eternal round, or eternal progression. It is also taught that man will become gods, just as our god did. Some took it to mean God was just like us, a sinner, who worked his way into godhood, others thought that the LDS god was like our Jesus, who didn't sin, but came to receive his mortal probation, his body of flesh and bone, to move on to be a god of his own creations.

    That is exactly what I saw in the video.

  10. #60
    aaronshaf
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    I honestly don't know. I don't speculate about those kinds of things. I figure I have enough to do in studying and doing those things God has revealed. The other will be revealed when the time is right, and I just don't worry about it right now.
    Libby, do you personally believe it is a historical possibility that God could have been a sinner? If yes, then don't you fear the wrath of God for believing that possibility? Can you honestly be OK with having to account for believing in that possibility in front of an all-holy God?

    If you don't believe it is a historical possibility, are you OK being spiritually plugged into a religious organization where such a belief is at least so prominent among young adult members around Temple Square? If I learned that large pockets of people in my religion believed God could have been a sinner, I would raise hell for heavenly purposes.

    I don't think Aaron has enough of a sampling to generalize this to the larger LDS population (not even nearly).
    At the very least I have a sampling to generalize the beliefs of active Mormon young adults that visit Temple Square.

    regardless of what these five or six people say they believe is "possible", this is not LDS doctrine and it is not taught in the church.
    That the Mormon Church doesn't have an official position on this precluding the sinful past of God the Father is exactly and precisely the problem. Pointing out that the Mormon Church doesn't have an official position serves as a form of deflection from the real issue of what real beliefs are fostered among members within the LDS Church as natural extensions of the ins***utionally fostered Mormon worldview.
    Last edited by aaronshaf; 04-07-2009 at 05:08 PM.

  11. #61
    maklelan
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    Quote Originally Posted by aaronshaf View Post
    Pointing out that the Mormon Church doesn't have an official position serves as a form of deflection from the real issue of what real beliefs are fostered among members within the LDS Church as natural extensions of the ins***utionally fostered Mormon worldview.
    And since God is more concerned with how we live and how much we love Christ rather than theological minutiae, we're not concerned. I'll point out again that you have been clumsily "deflecting" dealing with the fact that your entire premise is based on a rather uneducated perspective on biblical theology. Do you care to readdress that inadequacy, or have you swept it under the rug and moved on?

  12. #62
    aaronshaf
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    Whether God was perhaps once an addicted, filthy sinner is "theological minutiae"?

    Such a statement cannot come from a person with a Christian value system.

  13. #63
    Russ
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    Quote Originally Posted by Libby View Post
    The deception is not in what is portrayed, but rather in how it's portrayed and the impression that is given. There is an overall perception given that this is a common belief among Latter-day Saints (which I don't, personally, believe is true...not from my own experience). I don't think Aaron has enough of a sampling to generalize this to the larger LDS population (not even nearly). Also, regardless of what these five or six people say they believe is "possible", this is not LDS doctrine and it is not taught in the church.

    Libby, if it's not taught in LDS churches then where are they getting their ideas?

    The LDS church would indeed have us believe that God was once "something else" and then became something else by obedience to LDS laws, ordinances and principles.

    How Did God Become God?

    He did it, the LDS religion sezs, by being obedient.

    That leaves the door wide open for LDS to think about how God did that.

    Psalm 90:2 puts LDS theology to bed.
    Last edited by Russ; 04-07-2009 at 06:25 PM.

  14. #64
    Vlad III
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    Quote Originally Posted by Russ View Post
    Libby, if it's not taught in LDS churches then where are they getting their ideas?
    Pssst....Russ......Mormons actually think/opine/speculate/conjecture outside of the church. We think and wonder and try to connect dots. That is normal.

    LOL....on one hand you Mormon-antagonists criticize LDS for being blindly led and brainwashed and being non-thinkers. Then on the other hand you criticize LDS for thinking too much!

  15. #65
    maklelan
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    Quote Originally Posted by aaronshaf View Post
    Whether God was perhaps once an addicted, filthy sinner is "theological minutiae"?
    It is ultimately as irrelevant as whether the pearly gates swing or slide. Salvation is based on faith, not on a specific perspective of God's ontology. Your prioritization of orthodoxy over faith and orthopraxy is a testament of your apostasy and ignorance of biblical theology.

    Quote Originally Posted by aaronshaf View Post
    Such a statement cannot come from a person with a Christian value system.
    It cannot come from someone with your value system. Christ, however, scolded his apostles for turning away believers just because they didn't follow them. You've subjugated Christ and his gospel to middle-platonic ontological axioms, and you're not even aware of it.

    In the end, however, you remain completely unable to engage the history of the the Bible and Israelite and Christian theology. For that reason your endeavors are nothing more than the impotent posturing of a naive and misguided soul.

  16. #66
    Vlad III
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    Quote Originally Posted by maklelan View Post
    It is ultimately as irrelevant as whether the pearly gates swing or slide. Salvation is based on faith, not on a specific perspective of God's ontology. Your prioritization of orthodoxy over faith and orthopraxy is a testament of your apostasy and ignorance of biblical theology.



    It cannot come from someone with your value system. Christ, however, scolded his apostles for turning away believers just because they didn't follow them. You've subjugated Christ and his gospel to middle-platonic ontological axioms, and you're not even aware of it.

    In the end, however, you remain completely unable to engage the history of the the Bible and Israelite and Christian theology. For that reason your endeavors are nothing more than the impotent posturing of a naive and misguided soul.
    Mak,
    You have a way with words. Nice post!

  17. #67
    Libby
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    Quote Originally Posted by aaronshaf View Post
    Libby, do you personally believe it is a historical possibility that God could have been a sinner?
    I don't believe that, no.

    If you don't believe it is a historical possibility, are you OK being spiritually plugged into a religious organization where such a belief is at least so prominent among young adult members around Temple Square? If I learned that large pockets of people in my religion believed God could have been a sinner, I would raise hell for heavenly purposes.
    I have no control over what other people believe. I have already said that I doubt that that belief is prevalent, and I think as these young people become more seasoned, most of them will rethink many of their beliefs. (That goes for you, as well).

    Asking your question in the reverse, how can you belong to a religious group that includes people who believe it's possible that babies go to hell, if they are not chosen of God? Or even the whole idea that God chooses strictly for his own unknown purposes and sends the rest to eternal torment, all at his discretion, with no rhyme or reason that we can know? I find these kinds of seemingly nonsensical beliefs much more offensive than I do the idea that God may have, in some far distance of the eternities, been a sinner.

    At the very least I have a sampling to generalize the beliefs of active Mormon young adults that visit Temple Square.
    I doubt that, unless you have hundreds more interviews that you haven't shown.

    That the Mormon Church doesn't have an official position on this precluding the sinful past of God the Father is exactly and precisely the problem. Why is this a problem? Pointing out that the Mormon Church doesn't have an official position serves as a form of deflection from the real issue of what real beliefs are fostered among members within the LDS Church as natural extensions of the ins***utionally fostered Mormon worldview.
    I think anyone who has read further than just the snippets from Gospel Essentials will probably not come to that conclusion. Learning is a process (for the eternities, actually). What you are doing is taking some opinions of young people, as if they are written in stone and will forever be their beliefs. I can almost guarantee you that will not be so...not anymore than what YOU believe, right now, about Mormons or anything else, including your perception of God, is the final be-all, end-all of what you will believe and know in the eternities ahead. It's going to be quite a trip.

  18. #68
    Libby
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    Quote Originally Posted by justjo View Post
    Hi Libby! I agree, I would also say that as a former LDS, this is exactly as I was taught. God was once a man, it is all part of the eternal round, or eternal progression. It is also taught that man will become gods, just as our god did. Some took it to mean God was just like us, a sinner, who worked his way into godhood, others thought that the LDS god was like our Jesus, who didn't sin, but came to receive his mortal probation, his body of flesh and bone, to move on to be a god of his own creations.

    That is exactly what I saw in the video.
    Hi Jo.

    Eternal progression is definitely a part of LDS theology, I agree. But, do we know or understand everything about it? Not at all. Very little, in fact. And really what these young people were expressing was purely speculation on their part...and not anything conclusive...just that it was "possible", from what they understood at present.

  19. #69
    Libby
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    Quote Originally Posted by Russ View Post
    Libby, if it's not taught in LDS churches then where are they getting their ideas?

    The LDS church would indeed have us believe that God was once "something else" and then became something else by obedience to LDS laws, ordinances and principles.

    How Did God Become God?

    He did it, the LDS religion sezs, by being obedient.

    That leaves the door wide open for LDS to think about how God did that.

    Psalm 90:2 puts LDS theology to bed.
    Hi Russ. I don't think LDS theology really does point to God being "something else". I have always been told that God was always God.

  20. #70
    aaronshaf
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    I have always been told that God was always God.
    Libby, my heart aches for you, but this is downright disingenuous. You have been around long enough to know that Joseph Smith taught,

    [W]e should understand the character and being of God and how He came to be so; for I am going to tell you how God came to be God. We have imagined and supposed that God was God from all eternity. I will refute that idea, and take away the veil, so that you may see. (>>)
    This is a heart issue. I will pray for you tonight specifically. I believe your heart has grown callous to spiritual things, and you have surrendered your struggling heart to lesser joys because you believe that's all you can have.

  21. #71
    Vlad III
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    Quote Originally Posted by aaronshaf View Post
    This is a heart issue. I will pray for you tonight specifically. I believe your heart has grown callous to spiritual things, and you have surrendered your struggling heart to lesser joys because you believe that's all you can have.
    This is rich. A guy who makes the most use of his time by trying to tear down a church and making videos to show them in a negative light, claiming someone else has grown callous to spiritual things.

    This contrasted with someone who has a genuine yearning for truth and is searching the path that she feels God is leading her down.

    Who is the one who is really callous to the spirit? The one who asks God to lead them down the path of God and beckons the call, or the one who feels God has called him to tear down and diminish rather than build up and witness.

  22. #72
    Libby
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    Quote Originally Posted by aaronshaf View Post
    Libby, my heart aches for you, but this is downright disingenuous. You have been around long enough to know that Joseph Smith taught,
    Aaron, I'm kind of disappointed that you could believe I am being disingenuous. It's a very common belief among LDS today that God has always been God, in the very basic sense, and that He increases in dominion, but not in power and knowledge (which He has always had). That is what I believe.

    This is a heart issue. I will pray for you tonight specifically. I believe your heart has grown callous to spiritual things, and you have surrendered your struggling heart to lesser joys because you believe that's all you can have.
    Prayers are always welcome and I'm certainly not above being callous to spiritual things....so, I will just say thank you. But, I ***ure you my heart belongs to God and to His Son, Jesus Christ.

    You have my prayers, as well...and my deepest prayer for you would be that you continue to seek with a loving heart. I do believe you are a caring and thoughtful individual...still seeking and learning, which is good. Continue to examine all sides of things. There are many dimensions to every question.
    Last edited by Libby; 04-07-2009 at 09:36 PM.

  23. #73
    Russ
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    Quote Originally Posted by Libby View Post
    Hi Russ. I don't think LDS theology really does point to God being "something else". I have always been told that God was always God.
    Like Aaron, my heart breaks for you. You're being disingenuous.

    I know you've read:


    Milton R. Hunter, a member of Mormonism's First Council of the Seventy, wrote in The Gospel Through the Ages, p 104:

    "Mormon prophets have continuously taught the sublime truth that God the Eternal Father was once a mortal man who p***ed through a school of earth life similar to that through which we are now p***ing. He became God - an exalted being - through obedience to the same eternal Gospel truths that we are given opportunity today to obey."

    "Here, then, is eternal life -- to know the only wise and true God; and you have got to learn how to be Gods yourselves, and to be kings and priests to God, the same as all Gods have done before you,... To inherit the same power, the same glory and the same exaltation, until you arrive at the station of a God.... " (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, pp. 346, 347)

    Don't you believe them either?

    Do you really expect me to believe you've never heard such things?

    Give me a break.

  24. #74
    Russ
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    Quote Originally Posted by Libby View Post
    Aaron, I'm kind of disappointed that you could believe I am being disingenuous. It's a very common belief among LDS today that God has always been God, in the very basic sense, and that He increases in dominion, but not in power and knowledge (which He has always had). That is what I believe.



    Prayers are always welcome and I'm certainly not above being callous to spiritual things....so, I will just say thank you. But, I ***ure you my heart belongs to God and to His Son, Jesus Christ.

    You have my prayers, as well...and my deepest prayer for you would be that you continue to seek with a loving heart. I do believe you are a caring and thoughtful individual...still seeking and learning, which is good. Continue to examine all sides of things. There are many dimensions to every question.
    Indeed there are many dimensions to every question.

    To the question "Would LDSism have me believe that God was once a man?" we know that he was.

    To the question "Would LDSism have me believe that God once wasn't God?" we know the answer to that one too.

    Or would LDSism have us reject former prophets?

  25. #75
    Vlad III
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    Libs, you must be doing something right to have 2 people in this thread call you a liar.

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