Preview of GodNeverSinned.com video project

[Bat-Man]

Originally Posted by Libby

Frankly, that is not something I would discuss here, in a hostile environment. In a private conversation, perhaps.

I'm going to chime in here and speak up for our environment.

People who disagree with other people are not being hostile or creating a hostile environment... not even people like aaron.

Some people are simply speaking out against what is true because they don't have faith from God to know what is really true.

Some people are a little more vociferous than some other people, even using ALL CAPS on occasions, but nobody here is showing any hostility.

If you'd like to know what hostility really looks like, well, I'll find someone else to show you.

Of course. Why wouldn't I? I have worshipped right along side Calvinists and others with whom I have much more vehemently disagreed.. I don't believe in the exclusionary God who only listens to certain people. I think most of us worship the same God, even though we have different concepts of Him...and I know He hears all of our sincere prayers.

Amen.

[Libby]

Originally Posted by Bat-Man

I'm going to chime in here and speak up for our environment.

People who disagree with other people are not being hostile or creating a hostile environment... not even people like aaron.

Some people are simply speaking out against what is true because they don't have faith from God to know what is really true.

Some people are a little more vociferous than some other people, even using ALL CAPS on occasions, but nobody here is showing any hostility.

If you'd like to know what hostility really looks like, well, I'll find someone else to show you.

You're right. I have seen much worse, myself. Hostile was probably not a good word to describe this board (although, I have to say, having people call me a liar is not something I would exactly call "friendly"). I just believe some discussions are more fruitful in private. Something about public boards that often make all of us a bit more contentious than we might otherwise be.

[Bat-Man]

Originally Posted by Libby

You're right. I have seen much worse, myself. Hostile was probably not a good word to describe this board (although, I have to say, having people call me a liar is not something I would exactly call "friendly"). I just believe some discussions are more fruitful in private. Something about public boards that often make all of us a bit more contentious than we might otherwise be.

I try to carry on my conversations here the same way I do in private, but I think I know what you meant. Some people don't, or at least I hope not.

Maybe it would help if we all went to a cl*** before posting on the internet, with the goal of that cl*** being to teach us how we should behave when discussing our perspectives with other people who may not have the same beliefs that we have.

I think it would still come down to a matter of having faith or not, though, but who knows, maybe something like that could help.

[maklelan]

Originally Posted by justjo

I see something very interesting here.

In all my posting on debate boards of Christianity vs Mormonism (no, I am not any where near a pro)... I have observed the LDS to continually say that if one wants to know what mormons believe, "ASK THE MORMONS".

So, we have a Christian who went out with a microphone and a video camera, asks a direct question to mormons, get direct answers. Said person publishes video and now the mormons are upset...

Aaron you just didn't ask the right question! Next time post a poll to the LDS and ask them what question you should ask before you go out. In fact, I think that is a great idea!

The problem is that the suggestion isn't to deceive others and ask leading questions that are only efficacious in that context of deception. Aaron is the one, remember, who begged someone to please deceive numerous temple workers and obtain for him an ill-gotten recording of the temple ceremony. You can believe what you want about the Mormons he is recording, but don't for a single second presume to insist he's being anything other than dishonest and manipulative. That ***ertion is absolutely without foundation, and you're well aware of that.

[theway]

Originally Posted by justjo

I see something very interesting here.

In all my posting on debate boards of Christianity vs Mormonism (no, I am not any where near a pro)... I have observed the LDS to continually say that if one wants to know what mormons believe, "ASK THE MORMONS".

So, we have a Christian who went out with a microphone and a video camera, asks a direct question to mormons, get direct answers. Said person publishes video and now the mormons are upset...

Aaron you just didn't ask the right question! Next time post a poll to the LDS and ask them what question you should ask before you go out. In fact, I think that is a great idea!

It is quite OK to ask sincere questions, it’s just that, not all questions should be answered without a proper understanding of the issue, or even answered at all. Before I left on my mission, while inside the temple, a general authority of the church sat us down and told us we could ask any question we wanted of him, including temple related questions. At first I was excited but than became disheartened to find that most of his answers were “I don’t know”. But later on I realized that as a representative of the Lord or the church, one needs to be careful about trying to answer a question that no one knows the answer to. I can speculate, but only with some one who understands that it is only speculation or a personal opinion.

This problem is apparent in Aaronshaf’s inability after years of asking the same question and his still not being able to separate the answers, as either doctrine of the LDS church, or merely personal opinion/speculation.

Most members of the church do not interact much with critics and would not recognize the deception. Had I been asked, I probably would not have answered, or I would have answered the question he should have asked (both of which I know critics hate).
Aaronshat doesn’t really care which answer you give. If you answer yes, Aaron will cry over your state of sinfulness, if you answer No, then you are either uneducated, or purposely deceitful about what the church really teaches.

This whole thing reminds me of a certain question asked in the Bible

Matthew 22
15 Then went the Pharisees, and took counsel how they might entangle him in his talk.
16 And they sent out unto him their disciples with the Herodians, saying, Master, we know that thou art true, and teachest the way of God in truth, neither carest thou for any man: for thou regardest not the person of men.
17 Tell us therefore, What thinkest thou? Is it lawful to give tribute unto Caesar, or not?
18 But Jesus perceived their wickedness, and said, Why tempt ye me, ye hypocrites?
19 Shew me the tribute money. And they brought unto him a penny.
20 And he saith unto them, Whose is this image and superscription?
21 They say unto him, Caesar's. Then saith he unto them, Render therefore unto Caesar the things which are Caesar's; and unto God the things that are God's.

It all sounds familiar doesn’t it?

[aaronshaf]

This problem is apparent in Aaronshaf’s inability after years of asking the same question and his still not being able to separate the answers, as either doctrine of the LDS church, or merely personal opinion/speculation.

Straw man. Where have I conflated formal official doctrine with the actual beliefs of lay members here?

You have it not only wrong, but completely backwards. I of all people understand that distinction very well. In fact, I have repeatedly and explicitly pointed out that part of the very problem is that the Mormon Church does NOT have an official position on whether God was once a sinner. This whole topic of discussion started long ago on another board with me engaging a few LDS internet armchair apologists who insisted that the LDS Church's official position was that God absolutely never sinned. They were absolutely wrong, I argued, and it was the case instead that Mormonism had no official position (given popular models of what cons***utes official positions; there are various contradicting LDS models on this, mind you) on whether God could have been a filthy, addicted sinner.

if you answer No, then you are either uneducated, or purposely deceitful about what the church really teaches.

That's not true either. I believe the interviewees who answered "no" really believed what they said (except where they expressed their own uncertainty, etc.). The value in showing their video clips was to show diversity and the lack of unity in LDS thought over the basic issue.

[theway]

Originally Posted by aaronshaf

Straw man. Where have I conflated formal official doctrine with the actual beliefs of lay members here?

You have it not only wrong, but completely backwards. I of all people understand that distinction very well. In fact, I have repeatedly and explicitly pointed out that part of the very problem is that the Mormon Church does NOT have an official position on whether God was once a sinner. This whole topic of discussion started long ago on another board with me engaging a few LDS internet armchair apologists who insisted that the LDS Church's official position was that God absolutely never sinned. They were absolutely wrong, I argued, and it was the case instead that Mormonism had no official position (given popular models of what cons***utes official positions; there are various contradicting LDS models on this, mind you) on whether God could have been a filthy, addicted sinner.

I would ***ume then, as a honest reporter of the truth that you put a disclaimer in your video that says something to the effect,
“The opinions expressed in this video are not meant to represent the doctrines or beliefs of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, or its leaders”

Originally Posted by aaronshaf

That's not true either. I believe the interviewees who answered "no" really believed what they said (except where they expressed their own uncertainty, etc.). The value in showing their video clips was to show diversity and the lack of unity in LDS thought over the basic issue.

Basic issue?
In all my years in the LDS church, overseas and at home, the only place I’ve seen this issue raised is by you. The rest of us I guess, are just spinning our wheels in such unimportant things as our relationship with God, prayer, love, family, charity, work etc…

[aaronshaf]

theway, the nature and worship and enjoyment of God is the most fundamental and basic issue of Christianity. When I mean "basic", I mean basic to Biblical Christianity.

[theway]

Originally Posted by aaronshaf

theway, the nature and worship and enjoyment of God is the most fundamental and basic issue of Christianity. When I mean "basic", I mean basic to Biblical Christianity.

The basics about the nature of God is important, and I find your response strange coming from a group whose theology makes knowing the basic nature of the Triune Trinity God impossible to comprehend.

In any case, not everything about God’s nature is necessary for us know, nor would it be good for our spiritual growth to know everything, especially if one is not willing to accept the answer.

However upon more than just a few seconds contemplation (I am spiritually and mentally challenged
after all) I realized that there was more than just a simple yes or no answer, but there exists a more appropriate response. Maybe there’s a reason that God has chosen not to reveal such things to man, It’s possibly the same response I give when my kids ask me whether I ever smoked, drank, made out, etc.. and that is “It’s none of your business “. Even if I had never done any of them it’s still not something that they need a response to.

[SavedbyTruth]

Originally Posted by theway

It is quite OK to ask sincere questions, it’s just that, not all questions should be answered without a proper understanding of the issue, or even answered at all. Before I left on my mission, while inside the temple, a general authority of the church sat us down and told us we could ask any question we wanted of him, including temple related questions. At first I was excited but than became disheartened to find that most of his answers were “I don’t know”. But later on I realized that as a representative of the Lord or the church, one needs to be careful about trying to answer a question that no one knows the answer to. I can speculate, but only with some one who understands that it is only speculation or a personal opinion.

This problem is apparent in Aaronshaf’s inability after years of asking the same question and his still not being able to separate the answers, as either doctrine of the LDS church, or merely personal opinion/speculation.

Most members of the church do not interact much with critics and would not recognize the deception. Had I been asked, I probably would not have answered, or I would have answered the question he should have asked (both of which I know critics hate).
Aaronshat doesn’t really care which answer you give. If you answer yes, Aaron will cry over your state of sinfulness, if you answer No, then you are either uneducated, or purposely deceitful about what the church really teaches.

This whole thing reminds me of a certain question asked in the Bible

Matthew 22
15 Then went the Pharisees, and took counsel how they might entangle him in his talk.
16 And they sent out unto him their disciples with the Herodians, saying, Master, we know that thou art true, and teachest the way of God in truth, neither carest thou for any man: for thou regardest not the person of men.
17 Tell us therefore, What thinkest thou? Is it lawful to give tribute unto Caesar, or not?
18 But Jesus perceived their wickedness, and said, Why tempt ye me, ye hypocrites?
19 Shew me the tribute money. And they brought unto him a penny.
20 And he saith unto them, Whose is this image and superscription?
21 They say unto him, Caesar's. Then saith he unto them, Render therefore unto Caesar the things which are Caesar's; and unto God the things that are God's.

It all sounds familiar doesn’t it?

This is an excellent point!

Aaron wants everyone who sees his video which has been carefully planned for two years to believe there is no deception, even though it is asked of individuals who only have seconds to respond.

Look how long this discussion has been going on. Even in the face of all that has been said here he chooses to promote his video in accordance with his own personal agenda. Truth has nothing to do with it.

God will render unto Aaron what He sees fit.

[aaronshaf]

Originally Posted by SavedbyTruth

This is an excellent point!

Aaron wants everyone who sees his video which has been carefully planned for two years to believe there is no deception, even though it is asked of individuals who only have seconds to respond.

Look how long this discussion has been going on. Even in the face of all that has been said here he chooses to promote his video in accordance with his own personal agenda. Truth has nothing to do with it.

God will render unto Aaron what He sees fit.

If it takes a person more than a couple of seconds to decide whether he or she thinks God could have been a sinner, he or she is either mentally challenged (and I mean that phrase respectfully to refer to real people) or simply devoid of the Spirit.

[SavedbyTruth]

Originally Posted by aaronshaf

If it takes a person more than a couple of seconds to decide whether he or she thinks God could have been a sinner, he or she is either mentally challenged (and I mean that phrase respectfully to refer to real people) or simply devoid of the Spirit.

Oh Aaron,

We have already demonstrated your deception. We see you as you really are.

Just to clarify, did you learn that the mentally challenged are NOT real people by studying the Bible? Or did you pick that up from another source? Please provide either the specific scriptures from the Bible, and/or your other source.

Thank you,

SbT