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Thread: Preview of GodNeverSinned.com video project

  1. #151
    Richard
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    Quote Originally Posted by JDErickson View Post
    Hi Jeff,
    What do you personally believe in regards to God possibly being a sinner in a past mortal probation?
    Personally, this is Richard's opinion, Christ stated that he could only do what he saw the Father do. Christ was sinless, I believe God the Eternal Father is sinless, speculation is not doctrinal.

    R.

  2. #152
    nrajeff
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    Quote Originally Posted by Richard View Post
    Personally, this is Richard's opinion, Christ stated that he could only do what he saw the Father do. Christ was sinless, I believe God the Eternal Father is sinless, speculation is not doctrinal.

    R.
    ---I agree with Richard. He is exactly right, and virtually every LDS I know who has made a statement on the issue, has said the same. Jesus is JUST LIKE His Father, and Jesus never sinned, ergo His Father never did either. Thus, there is more support for LDS believing the Father never sinned, than there is for some forced "speculation" to the contrary. Sorry, Aaron, but someday your little daughter is gonna ask "Daddy, why did you try to create controversy where there really was none? Why are you a fabricator, Daddy? Is that how you paid for my college education--making money by making up accusations against people?"

  3. #153
    aaronshaf
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    nrajeff, thanks for sharing your speculative LDS internet apologist opinion. Perhaps you can go on a campaign to help other LDS members entirely reject the idea that God was possibly a sinner, replacing their speculation with your own speculation?

    Or you can become a Christian, where no one believes God could have been a sinner, and everyone is confident that he never sinned.

  4. #154
    Dante
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    I'm a little late commenting on this thread but I would have to agree with the Jesus/Father speculation that they were both sinless and that the majority of LDS who give this any thought to this degree would too. In fact, I asked a few LDS friends of mine this very question just as Aaron did, and they all said the same. Certainly not a "scientific poll", but neither was his. And they certainly were no "internet apologists". In fact they were surprised that I would even waste my time on a site like this.

    I question why there were no older, more seasoned LDS asked same... perhaps they dismissed him for what they knew it was, or that Aaron knew better than to ask...?

    I am amused what legs some here try give this video, as if it's going to rock the world of LDS criticism... it's pretty much a yawner.

    The only thing that really gives any offense to me is the guy who was mercilessly macking on that gum - I mean really, dude, give that gum a chance!

    I do admit Maklelan's recent comments have piqued my interest and would like to hear more about what he's understood from the Hebrew texts accordingly.
    Last edited by Dante; 04-10-2009 at 12:58 PM.

  5. #155
    JDErickson
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    Quote Originally Posted by nrajeff View Post
    ---I agree with Richard. He is exactly right, and virtually every LDS I know who has made a statement on the issue, has said the same. Jesus is JUST LIKE His Father, and Jesus never sinned, ergo His Father never did either. Thus, there is more support for LDS believing the Father never sinned, than there is for some forced "speculation" to the contrary.

    Jeff,
    Why would so many Mormons believe it then? THese aren't some wacko Mormons from Maklelans home town. These are "This is the place" Mormons who have close direct support from Mormon leaders.

  6. #156
    Libby
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    Quote Originally Posted by JDErickson View Post
    Jeff,
    Why would so many Mormons believe it then? THese aren't some wacko Mormons from Maklelans home town. These are "This is the place" Mormons who have close direct support from Mormon leaders.
    I don't believe there really are very many LDS who believe that. I haven't known even one (in real life...not just from the internet). Whenever this is discussed in church, the idea that Christ and God were both sinless (now and always) has always been the presumption.

    Even the LDS who were interviewed in Aaron's video were only speculating about a "possibility"...not that they believed that was a "fact".
    Last edited by Libby; 04-10-2009 at 02:11 PM.

  7. #157
    Bat-Man
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dante View Post
    I'm a little late commenting on this thread but I would have to agree with the Jesus/Father speculation that they were both sinless and that the majority of LDS who give this any thought to this degree would too.
    Are you LDS, Dante ?

    Do you understand our doctrine concerning how we (LDS) can become sinless through the atonement of Jesus Christ, and thereby become just like our Father ?

    If we can become like our Father as we accept the atonement of Jesus Christ, even though we have sinned before and our sins are now or will be removed from our account through the atonement of Jesus Christ), what makes you think our Father wasn't also like one of us, as we are now ?

    I believe most LDS understand our (LDS) doctrine more than you realize.

  8. #158
    Richard
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    Quote Originally Posted by aaronshaf View Post
    nrajeff, thanks for sharing your speculative LDS internet apologist opinion. Perhaps you can go on a campaign to help other LDS members entirely reject the idea that God was possibly a sinner, replacing their speculation with your own speculation?

    Or you can become a Christian, where no one believes God could have been a sinner, and everyone is confident that he never sinned.
    What does it matter if another member does not believe exactly like me or Jeff. A loving Heavenly Father would never embarr*** another, and would patiently wait for one to choose correctly, but never would He force his doctrine on another. Think about that Aaron, and what you are pretending to do is only justification for what is actually mocking and ridiculing, something a Christian who believes and follows Christ, would never do.

    R.

  9. #159
    Dante
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bat-Man View Post
    Are you LDS, Dante ?
    I am.

    Do you understand our doctrine concerning how we (LDS) can become sinless through the atonement of Jesus Christ, and thereby become just like our Father ?
    I'd like to think I've got a decent handle on it, but every time I make such ***umptions the Lord sees fit to let me know I've a lot more to learn.

    If we can become like our Father as we accept the atonement of Jesus Christ, even though we have sinned before and our sins are now or will be removed from our account through the atonement of Jesus Christ), what makes you think our Father wasn't also like one of us, as we are now ?
    Therein lies the real miracle, don't you think? God has promised He will blot out our sins and remember them no more. The hardest part of repentance IMO is us forgiving ourselves and forgetting them. Can an All-Knowing God really forget our sins as if they never happened? He says He can so I am compelled to believe it.

    Can Atonement via a sacrificial Savior so completely wipe away sin that if God were more like us than Christ in His mortal probation that He could be exalted to the level of worshipped Deity? Sure, it is possible (even if it is 0.00001% as Jeff iterated earlier, and is why Aaron asked the question the way he did in his video interviews) but that brings me to this introspective; Do I take Christ at face value when He stated that He can do nothing that He has not seen the Father do? I am more inclined to than the concept that the Father was more like us and a sinner, but it's not out of the realm of possibility IMO. It's just without more definitive revelation on the matter rather than speculation I'm just not compelled to believe it at present.

    If you have further info you feel is pertinent, I am certainly open to it!

  10. #160
    nrajeff
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    I think Dante has said it well in the above post. Question I might ask the folks heading into Aaron's church, as I point my camcorder at them and ask them, without warning: "Do you believe it's possible--even if the possibility is only 1 in a trillion--that God could look like a big red lizard? The Bible doesn't rule out the possibility, right?" And then, after I get a few of the more reasonable of Aaron's fellow Calvary Chapelites (or whatever) to answer that such a thing is not impossible, I can post my "shocking findings" on YouTube, and let the mocking comments flow, as they invariably do under any YouTube video. Then I can advertise my "research" about the members of Aaron's church far and wide, and make myself famous among a certain circle of people, and I can think that I have done God's work. (John 16:2)

  11. #161
    aaronshaf
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    question i might ask the folks heading into aaron's church, as i point my camcorder at them and ask them, without warning: "do you believe it's possible--even if the possibility is only 1 in a trillion--that god could look like a big red lizard? The bible doesn't rule out the possibility, right?"
    PLEASE DO THIS! Pllleeeeease...

  12. #162
    Libby
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dante View Post
    I am.



    I'd like to think I've got a decent handle on it, but every time I make such ***umptions the Lord sees fit to let me know I've a lot more to learn.
    Amen to that.

    Therein lies the real miracle, don't you think? God has promised He will blot out our sins and remember them no more. The hardest part of repentance IMO is us forgiving ourselves and forgetting them. Can an All-Knowing God really forget our sins as if they never happened? He says He can so I am compelled to believe it.

    Can Atonement via a sacrificial Savior so completely wipe away sin that if God were more like us than Christ in His mortal probation that He could be exalted to the level of worshipped Deity? Sure, it is possible (even if it is 0.00001% as Jeff iterated earlier, and is why Aaron asked the question the way he did in his video interviews) but that brings me to this introspective; Do I take Christ at face value when He stated that He can do nothing that He has not seen the Father do? I am more inclined to than the concept that the Father was more like us and a sinner, but it's not out of the realm of possibility IMO. It's just without more definitive revelation on the matter rather than speculation I'm just not compelled to believe it at present.

    If you have further info you feel is pertinent, I am certainly open to it!
    These are excellent observations, Dante. I'm embarr***ed to admit the idea of Jesus wiping the slate clean (as if the sin never occurred)..did not come to mind, in regards to this issue. That is really something worth pondering.

  13. #163
    nrajeff
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    Quote Originally Posted by aaronshaf View Post
    PLEASE DO THIS! Pllleeeeease...
    --Yeah, and then if I am REAL lucky, one of them will get sick and tired of my badgering, and will do me the mini-martydom of throwing some water on me, which I can ALSO use to further my anti-Aaron's-church agenda...oh, wait, I misspoke...I mean, my "critic-of-Aaron's-church agenda..."

  14. #164
    aaronshaf
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    That is really something worth pondering.
    Isn't it sad, Libby, that now you're going to consider adopting the idea that God could have sinned and then could have been atoned for and forgiven? Do you see where the spirit behind Mormonism is taking you?

    Satan is behind that. He is the one who wants you to believe God could have been a sinner.
    Last edited by aaronshaf; 04-10-2009 at 11:51 PM.

  15. #165
    Libby
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    I don't know, Aaron. I think, perhaps, it's more sad that you cannot see the profoundness of the gift of Christ....to remove sin so completely that it is as if it never was.

    Don't you believe that's possible?

  16. #166
    aaronshaf
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    I don't believe it's possible that God the Father needed a savior.

    Part of what makes the Savior so awesome in Christianity is that he and his Father absolutely never sinned.

  17. #167
    Libby
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    Quote Originally Posted by aaronshaf View Post
    I don't believe it's possible that God the Father needed a savior.

    Part of what makes the Savior so awesome in Christianity is that he and his Father absolutely never sinned.
    Yes, I understand your pov.

  18. #168
    Dante
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    I think what is even more awesome is the thought that Christ's Atonement is so broad, sweeping and complete that even sinners will be viewed in His eyes as having never done so. So whether having never sinned or having the sin mercifully and graciously blotted out is the same in His eyes. He doesn't differentiate.

    I find it difficult to wrap my mind around such a concept when thinking what He went thru for us especially since He still carries those marks in His hands and feet as reminders, yet He promises to forget.

    I do indeed stand all amazed.

    With that in mind, Happy Easter everyone, regardless of your religious affiliation!

  19. #169
    SavedbyTruth
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    Quote Originally Posted by Libby View Post
    I don't believe there really are very many LDS who believe that. I haven't known even one (in real life...not just from the internet). Whenever this is discussed in church, the idea that Christ and God were both sinless (now and always) has always been the presumption.

    Even the LDS who were interviewed in Aaron's video were only speculating about a "possibility"...not that they believed that was a "fact".
    Hi Libby,

    Unfortunately, the non-LDS posters ALL live by and exercise the same philosophy: Never let the facts get in the way of good story.

    SbT

  20. #170
    Vlad III
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    Quote Originally Posted by SavedbyTruth View Post
    Hi Libby,

    Unfortunately, the non-LDS posters ALL live by and exercise the same philosophy: Never let the facts get in the way of good story.

    SbT
    That sounds like the 'Joe Biden Philosophy'....

  21. #171
    SavedbyTruth
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vlad III View Post
    That sounds like the 'Joe Biden Philosophy'....
    It's so funny you should mention that! Watching Fox news today, the liberals saw nothing wrong with what he had done. As more news stories unfolded I continued to be amazed at what people will say to ignore reason. I felt like I was watching a televised version of one of our threads in dealing with the non-LDS posters.

  22. #172
    alanmolstad
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    I clicked on the link at the start of this topic....and was reading until I got to this sentence made by what I guess is a good Mormon - "Do I think that it is possible that God was a practicing ****sexual on another world? No. But that's just a personal response, that's not a Church response."


    So there is a bit of uncertainty it seems in the guy's mind as to the official church position on the question, "Was God gay....on Mars?".......


    What a sad religion....

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