Identifying a Christian

[Fig-bearing Thistle]

In another thread, JDErickson said:

"Fruits really has very little to do with being a Christian sorry.

It's what your true beliefs are that matters. "

Is this position typical of all LDS Critics--that Fruits have very little to do with identifying a Christian?

I bet most LDS Critics will be tempted to say "yes." The Critics will hold to the idea that this test of fruit only works one way--identifying an evil tree, but not for identifying a good tree.

It seems that some Critics preach the un-biblical idea that Jesus was wrong, and that Figs actually CAN come from Thistles, and Grapes CAN be gathered from Thorns. (See Matt. 7).

So, they throw out the fruit test because they believe that the fruits of the Spirit can come directly from Satan.

How 'bout this scripture:

" 17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them: they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.
19 ¶ So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God.
20 And they went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word with signs following. Amen (Mark 16:17-20)"

Is this a not way of identifying a Christian? I bet the LDS Critic will say "NO", because these signs can be shown to follow the LDS as well.

My question is, is there anything that Jesus said regarding Identifying a Christian, that doesn't also identify an LDS person?

Let me just say, that as an LDS, I DO trust Jesus' words regarding identifying his sheep, his people, his servants.

[Paul]

Originally Posted by Fig-bearing Thistle

In another thread, JDErickson said:


Is this position typical of all LDS Critics--that Fruits have very little to do with identifying a Christian?

It does when the LDS don't want to objectively deal with their fallacious doctrines, and would rather subs***ute a warm fuzzy to make people think that they're something that they're not. It is the cl***ic example of what Jesus was talking about when he expounded on the doctrine of fruits by starting out with a discussion about false prophets and wolves parading about in sheep's clothing.

Matthew 7:15 "Beware of the false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly are ravenous wolves. 16 "You will know them by their fruits. Grapes are not gathered from thorn bushes, nor figs from thistles, are they? 17 "Even so, every good tree bears good fruit; but the bad tree bears bad fruit. 18 "A good tree cannot produce bad fruit, nor can a bad tree produce good fruit. 19 "Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 "So then, you will know them by their fruits. 21 "Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven; but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven. 22 "Many will say to Me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?' 23 "And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness.'

[Fig-bearing Thistle]

Originally Posted by Paul

It does when the LDS don't want to objectively deal with their fallacious doctrines, and would rather subs***ute a warm fuzzy to make people think that they're something that they're not. It is the cl***ic example of what Jesus was talking about when he expounded on the doctrine of fruits by starting out with a discussion about false prophets and wolves parading about in sheep's clothing.

But you deny Jesus' very words that figs are not gathered from thistles, and grapes are not gathered from thorn bushes. Why do you deny His words?

[HickPreacher]

Since Eden, there has been a difficulty for people as to know what is good fruit and forbidden fruit. A Tree can be known by the fruit it bears.

If the fruit is misidentified, it would then also follow that the tree would also be misidentified.

Some people and organizations are able to fake it for a long time and bear fruit that appears superficially good. Or sometime the fruit of an organization or society is proposed to be good-- but over time turns out to be bad.

The Good Fruit ****ogy is all about how a person who is born-again as a child of God from the inside, will manifest that internal change by outward actions-- those actions called 'fruit'.

The idea is that when change happens inside a person- it will ulitmately show-up on the outside. Likewise Jesus said that He produced the Fruits (works) of the Father, because the Father was inside of Him-

Jn 14 -- Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.
11 Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works’ sake.
12 ¶ Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.

[Libby]

This whole idea of a good tree not bearing bad fruit was one of the things that sent me back into the LDS Church.

I am a convert (eight years) and before my experiences with the LDS Church I was fairly agnostic..not at all sure there even was a God. I came back to a strong belief in God and the Savior through experiences with the Book of Mormon and this church, and it definitely changed my life for the better. And that is not just my opinion, but has been observed by my family and friends. God transformed me through this church (which I believe is Christ's Church..and he did the transforming using his church as a tool). So, even though I went through a period of over a year where I had difficulty with some of the church history (and even some of the doctrine, when it was presented by critics), I still could not completely deny what Christ had done, in my life, through this church. It is most definitely "good fruit".

[Fig-bearing Thistle]

Originally Posted by Libby

This whole idea of a good tree not bearing bad fruit was one of the things that sent me back into the LDS Church.

I am a convert (eight years) and before my experiences with the LDS Church I was fairly agnostic..not at all sure there even was a God. I came back to a strong belief in God and the Savior through experiences with the Book of Mormon and this church, and it definitely changed my life for the better. And that is not just my opinion, but has been observed by my family and friends. God transformed me through this church (which I believe is Christ's Church..and he did the transforming using his church as a tool). So, even though I went through a period of over a year where I had difficulty with some of the church history (and even some of the doctrine, when it was presented by critics), I still could not completely deny what Christ had done, in my life, through this church. It is most definitely "good fruit".

Thanks, Libby. Your life-changing experience is a perfect example of a FIG that some would say had to have come from Thistle.

[Libby]

Originally Posted by Fig-bearing Thistle

Thanks, Libby. Your life-changing experience is a perfect example of a FIG that some would say had to have come from Thistle.

I think so, too...I really do. One cannot ***ociate with Latter-day Saints and the LDS Church, up close and personal, and deny the fruit of that church. It's phenomenal (if one is looking at it with truly open eyes)..

[Paul]

Originally Posted by Libby

I think so, too...I really do. One cannot ***ociate with Latter-day Saints and the LDS Church, up close and personal, and deny the fruit of that church. It's phenomenal (if one is looking at it with truly open eyes)..

Excuse me, but do you think a wolf in sheep's clothing is truly a sheep, Libby? If not, then whatever "fruit" the wolf might produce is really indicative of what?

[HickPreacher]

Originally Posted by Libby

This whole idea of a good tree not bearing bad fruit was one of the things that sent me back into the LDS Church.

I am a convert (eight years) and before my experiences with the LDS Church I was fairly agnostic..not at all sure there even was a God. I came back to a strong belief in God and the Savior through experiences with the Book of Mormon and this church, and it definitely changed my life for the better. And that is not just my opinion, but has been observed by my family and friends. God transformed me through this church (which I believe is Christ's Church..and he did the transforming using his church as a tool). So, even though I went through a period of over a year where I had difficulty with some of the church history (and even some of the doctrine, when it was presented by critics), I still could not completely deny what Christ had done, in my life, through this church. It is most definitely "good fruit".

God is overall. I have participated in Penitentiary (Department of Corrections) ministry. Many inmates in a temporal way benefit from their stay in the Pen. It keeps them isolated and alive for a time to mature, where otherwise they would end up dead and or killing someone else. The Pen protects, houses, feds , clothes , and even some cases actually educates and rehabilitates.

Freedom even in Christ requires a kind of autonomy and independence that many people have had difficulty with. Real Christians learn how to be clothed directly by God,-- and fed, housed, educated with the Holy Ghost, not by having physical structured Ins***ution to do that for them. Successful Christians are very much self starters. Many Churches have provisions for people who need both ends of the scale from dependence to autonomy.

When you are a Mormon you are given a lot of structure-- you are given a Church calling, and home teachers to check on you, Bishop interviews at various points of time along with other remediations. I was not given the option for autonomy when I needed it-- and left the LDS due to that.
It was as if that was the natural mechanism for a person who grows to autonomy-- leave the Church.

In some cases people need or want a lot of structure-- and the LDS Church seems to provide for those needs.

For me to stay LDS would be like having a life sentence-- maybe an eternal one in the Pen.

[SavedbyTruth]

Originally Posted by HickPreacher

God is overall. I have participated in Penitentiary (Department of Corrections) ministry. Many inmates in a temporal way benefit from their stay in the Pen. It keeps them isolated and alive for a time to mature, where otherwise they would end up dead and or killing someone else. The Pen protects, houses, feds , clothes , and even some cases actually educates and rehabilitates.

Freedom even in Christ requires a kind of autonomy and independence that many people have had difficulty with. Real Christians learn how to be clothed directly by God,-- and fed, housed, educated with the Holy Ghost, not by having physical structured Ins***ution to do that for them. Successful Christians are very much self starters. Many Churches have provisions for people who need both ends of the scale from dependence to autonomy.

When you are a Mormon you are given a lot of structure-- you are given a Church calling, and home teachers to check on you, Bishop interviews at various points of time along with other remediations. I was not given the option for autonomy when I needed it-- and left the LDS due to that.
It was as if that was the natural mechanism for a person who grows to autonomy-- leave the Church.

In some cases people need or want a lot of structure-- and the LDS Church seems to provide for those needs.

For me to stay LDS would be like having a life sentence-- maybe an eternal one in the Pen.

While the Church was doing you good, was it doing Christ's work? Or did you use the Church only as a tool until you obtained your autonomy at which time you were then able to find Christ somewhere else??? Somehow I don't think satan would be a willing participant in preparing you to be able to find Christ. OR do you believe the LDS ARE Christian, but you made the choice to further your autonomy elsewhere among other Christians? Did the Church EVER do you good?

Thank you,

SbT

[HickPreacher]

Originally Posted by SavedbyTruth

While the Church was doing you good, was it doing Christ's work? Or did you use the Church only as a tool until you obtained your autonomy at which time you were then able to find Christ somewhere else??? Somehow I don't think satan would be a willing participant in preparing you to be able to find Christ. OR do you believe the LDS ARE Christian, but you made the choice to further your autonomy elsewhere among other Christians? Did the Church EVER do you good?

Thank you,

SbT

God is overall SbT-- You ask a HUGE question here-

I was a Christian Born-Again at age 18 never knowing nothing about the LDS but after a year joined the Mormons in 1973.

And I was an active Member until 1991. I remained active until I left.
I discussed my concerns with many LDS friends, my Bishop, and Stake Pres. over about a five year period before leaving.

They all invited me to stay LDS because it was nothing I was doing that contradicted LDS Church Standards-- to them it appeared to only be doctrinal ideas. Eventually it became frustrating to me because they could not seem to relate to my Spiritural Journey - or see it as important.

My initial official efforts of leaving the LDS Church were stalled by the local leadership who knew me. Part of this was due to my former wife's request-- because she also felt that I was being nutty over religious ideas that were in no way practical. She felt that I was destroying my life socially by being a religious nut--She got a lot out of the LDS Social life in the Ward and did not want to leave that for anything. Eventually she jumped ship and left for another man with like views, so I did not have to worry about that negative social aspect of leaving the LDS anymore. So I moved to an area where the Stake and Ward did not know me. That way the paper work went through.

I had a lot of benefits from being LDS socially and temporally for many years-- but to me eventually I was ideologically in deep conflict with LDS doctrines.

I also came into conflict with some of the LDS beliefs of how God is thought to give blessings based on D&C 130

About one year before leaving my LDS experience was horrible-- but other than that for 15 years the Church was a big social help to me as a person.
But later when I understood 'systematic theology' what I saw as errors in Mormon theology horrified me. I think that it takes a lot of insight to see these elements of Mormonism as non-Christian. Most who are LDS IMO do not have a clue as to why Evangelicals call Mormonism non-Christian.-- Many who call Mormons non-Christian in society sometimes also cannot explain why.

IMO certain LDS doctrines portray Christ as God in such a way that He would not have he power to atone us. Again it takes a lot of insight and reasoning to come to that conclusion, which is not within the interest nor scope of ability for some people.

Being out of the loop as a Mormon has been beneficial for my relationship with God. God immediately began to bless me. And continues to do so all the time. It is a much different experience with God as a non-Mormon Evangelical Christian. The way that I respond and work out my salvation is on a much different level-- direct and personal as an Evangelical Christian.

[SavedbyTruth]

Originally Posted by HickPreacher

God is overall SbT-- You ask a HUGE question here-

I was a Christian Born-Again at age 18 never knowing nothing about the LDS but after a year joined the Mormons in 1973.

And I was an active Member until 1991. I remained active until I left.
I discussed my concerns with many LDS friends, my Bishop, and Stake Pres. over about a five year period before leaving.

They all invited me to stay LDS because it was nothing I was doing that contradicted LDS Church Standards-- to them it appeared to only be doctrinal ideas. Eventually it became frustrating to me because they could not seem to relate to my Spiritural Journey - or see it as important.

My initial official efforts of leaving the LDS Church were stalled by the local leadership who knew me. Part of this was due to my former wife's request-- because she also felt that I was being nutty over religious ideas that were in no way practical. She felt that I was destroying my life socially by being a religious nut--She got a lot out of the LDS Social life in the Ward and did not want to leave that for anything. Eventually she jumped ship and left for another man with like views, so I did not have to worry about that negative social aspect of leaving the LDS anymore. So I moved to an area where the Stake and Ward did not know me. That way the paper work went through.

I had a lot of benefits from being LDS socially and temporally for many years-- but to me eventually I was ideologically in deep conflict with LDS doctrines.

I also came into conflict with some of the LDS beliefs of how God is thought to give blessings based on D&C 130

About one year before leaving my LDS experience was horrible-- but other than that for 15 years the Church was a big social help to me as a person.
But later when I understood 'systematic theology' what I saw as errors in Mormon theology horrified me. I think that it takes a lot of insight to see these elements of Mormonism as non-Christian. Most who are LDS IMO do not have a clue as to why Evangelicals call Mormonism non-Christian.-- Many who call Mormons non-Christian in society sometimes also cannot explain why.

IMO certain LDS doctrines portray Christ as God in such a way that He would not have he power to atone us. Again it takes a lot of insight and reasoning to come to that conclusion, which is not within the interest nor scope of ability for some people.

Being out of the loop as a Mormon has been beneficial for my relationship with God. God immediately began to bless me. And continues to do so all the time. It is a much different experience with God as a non-Mormon Evangelical Christian. The way that I respond and work out my salvation is on a much different level-- direct and personal as an Evangelical Christian.

I appreciate very much that you have shared your story. To give this type of length to your spiritual travels shows how important it really is to you personally. It seems you have also spoken from your heart, and I thank you.

I noticed you mentioned God is overall. I believe the same thing. I have faith in my Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ, whose resurrection we celebrate tomorrow. You became a Christian the moment you believed at the age of 18. I became Christian as a young girl in the Lutheran church. You have changed affiliation from main stream, to LDS, and back again to main stream. I changed from main stream to LDS. Neither of us has ever lost our faith in Jesus. We worship Him within the realm of the church we each have chosen. We serve Him by living Christian lives and following His example. We are both Christian.

SavedbyTruth

[Paul]

Originally Posted by Libby

This whole idea of a good tree not bearing bad fruit was one of the things that sent me back into the LDS Church.

No, Libby, what drove you back to the Mormon Church is a severe case of double-mindedness (James 1:8). You went out from the Christian church because you were never a part of it to begin with (1 Jn. 2:19). And until you are genuinely regenerated, and quit letting all the Mormon nonsense continue to influence you through appeals to the flesh, then you'll most likely keep being tossed about by every wind of doctrine (Eph. 4:14), and bearing testimony of the same.

[Fig-bearing Thistle]

Originally Posted by Paul

No, Libby, what drove you back to the Mormon Church is a severe case of double-mindedness (James 1:8). You went out from the Christian church because you were never a part of it to begin with (1 Jn. 2:19). And until you are genuinely regenerated, and quit letting all the Mormon nonsense continue to influence you through appeals to the flesh, then you'll most likely keep being tossed about by every wind of doctrine (Eph. 4:14), and bearing testimony of the same.

Would you also consider a repentant person a "double minded" person, Paul?

[Vlad III]

Originally Posted by Fig-bearing Thistle

Would you also consider a repentant person a "double minded" person, Paul?

Good point and very logical. Thanks!

[Paul]

Originally Posted by Vlad III

Good point and very logical. Thanks!

No, it's a stupid and irrational point, given his twisting of Scripture.

[Fig-bearing Thistle]

Originally Posted by Paul

No, it's a stupid and irrational point, given his twisting of Scripture.

But I see you have no answer.

[Vlad III]

Originally Posted by Paul

No, Libby, what drove you back to the Mormon Church is a severe case of double-mindedness (James 1:8). You went out from the Christian church because you were never a part of it to begin with (1 Jn. 2:19). And until you are genuinely regenerated, and quit letting all the Mormon nonsense continue to influence you through appeals to the flesh, then you'll most likely keep being tossed about by every wind of doctrine (Eph. 4:14), and bearing testimony of the same.

Isn't it amazing?!!

When Libby was LDS, she was ridiculed and despised.

When she left the LDS she was embraced by all the Mormon antagonists and was encouraged by them to continue in her new path as a Christian.

When she returned to the LDS, now she is ridiculed and condemned again by the mormon antagonists and told she was never really a part of them in the first place.

It looks like it isn't Libby that is being tossed about to and fro.....

[Paul]

Originally Posted by Vlad III

Isn't it amazing?!!

When Libby was LDS, she was ridiculed and despised.

When she left the LDS she was embraced by all the Mormon antagonists and was encouraged by them to continue in her new path as a Christian.

When she returned to the LDS, now she is ridiculed and condemned again by the mormon antagonists and told she was never really a part of them in the first place.

It looks like it isn't Libby that is being tossed about to and fro.....

Quite to the contrary. Libby can't make up her mind what she wants to do, and you're fueling the confusion by (1) ***erting something about Mormonism that isn't true, and (2) denying Scripture in the process.

[Fig-bearing Thistle]

Originally Posted by Paul

Quite to the contrary. Libby can't make up her mind what she wants to do, and you're fueling the confusion by (1) ***erting something about Mormonism that isn't true, and (2) denying Scripture in the process.

This is why I think it is presumptive for mainstream Christians to hold to the idea of OSAS.

[Vlad III]

Originally Posted by Fig-bearing Thistle

This is why I think it is presumptive for mainstream Christians to hold to the idea of OSAS.

Yes, but they have their 'out'...it's the caveat that, "Well, if they decide to leave the mainstream christian church they weren't really saved in the first place."

[anita]

This is a really good thread....... first of all most of believe that libby is saved. And if she is saved god will woo her until she is where she should be. to be saved all one must do is believe in their heart that jesus is God and that he came to redeem us from our sins. That his bought us with the price of his own blood so that we wouldn't have to pay for our own sins. libby confessed with her mouth and believed with her heart. She is saved as far as I"m concerned......... the fruits of the spirit are love joy peace patience kindness, goodness faithfulness gentleness and self control. against such thinkgs there isno law. gal 5:22-23

[Libby]

Originally Posted by anita

This is a really good thread....... first of all most of believe that libby is saved. And if she is saved god will woo her until she is where she should be. to be saved all one must do is believe in their heart that jesus is God and that he came to redeem us from our sins. That his bought us with the price of his own blood so that we wouldn't have to pay for our own sins. libby confessed with her mouth and believed with her heart. She is saved as far as I"m concerned......... the fruits of the spirit are love joy peace patience kindness, goodness faithfulness gentleness and self control. against such thinkgs there isno law. gal 5:22-23

Thank you, dear friend.

[Fig-bearing Thistle]

Originally Posted by Vlad III

Yes, but they have their 'out'...it's the caveat that, "Well, if they decide to leave the mainstream christian church they weren't really saved in the first place."

And this actually means that no one really knows if they were really saved in the first place. Because any of them could commit the one and only 'unpardonable sin' of having a change of heart and joining the LDS Church. No one knows for sure what the future holds.

[nrajeff]

Originally Posted by Fig-bearing Thistle

And this actually means that no one really knows if they were really saved in the first place. Because any of them could commit the one and only 'unpardonable sin' of having a change of heart and joining the LDS Church. No one knows for sure what the future holds.

---And that is the extremely salient--and dangerous--truth that Calvinists do not want to face, IMO. Because it militates against OSAS or OBIS or both. How can anyone claim to know they are irrevocably saved, if it's possible that they might "fall away" next year?