Identifying a Christian

[Libby]

Steve, I don't think you will get any argument from LDS that Jesus Christ is The Way.

The other, the One God issue, is a bit more complicated. I think Fig addressed that a bit. That part gets confusing for me and much of it is taken on faith. I just know that I do worship only one God, and all the other is a mystery to me...just as most Christians have a difficult time explaining how three persons can make just one God.

Thank you for your post. It was very interesting to read.

[HickPreacher]

SbT and Libby thanks for reading the post on "The Way".

Maybe I will start a Thread about 'the Way'

[SavedbyTruth]

Originally Posted by Paul

Excuse me, but it is not at all difficult to prove that Mormons are not what they claim to be, given the mountains of evidence that they have provided all these years. And it is because Christians can point out the evidence that Mormons, such as yourself, go into PR damage control mode, even to the extent of denying your own material and leaders. So, don't be sitting there lying to everyone about Christians not being able to disprove Mormon claims. The proof is there for anyone with eyes open enough to see it. To the rest, all they can do is lie, obfuscate, and engage in ad hominem attacks to try and avoid looking at the proof.

I must have missed the part where you were able to prove anything.

SbT

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by Fig-bearing Thistle

In another thread, JDErickson said:


Is this position typical of all LDS Critics--that Fruits have very little to do with identifying a Christian?

I bet most LDS Critics will be tempted to say "yes." The Critics will hold to the idea that this test of fruit only works one way--identifying an evil tree, but not for identifying a good tree.

It seems that some Critics preach the un-biblical idea that Jesus was wrong, and that Figs actually CAN come from Thistles, and Grapes CAN be gathered from Thorns. (See Matt. 7).

So, they throw out the fruit test because they believe that the fruits of the Spirit can come directly from Satan.

How 'bout this scripture:

" 17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them: they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.
19 ¶ So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God.
20 And they went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word with signs following. Amen (Mark 16:17-20)"

Is this a not way of identifying a Christian? I bet the LDS Critic will say "NO", because these signs can be shown to follow the LDS as well.

My question is, is there anything that Jesus said regarding Identifying a Christian, that doesn't also identify an LDS person?

Let me just say, that as an LDS, I DO trust Jesus' words regarding identifying his sheep, his people, his servants.

The error that Fig makes is found in his use of a highly questionable verse in the bible as the main support for his comment.
Its just never a good idea to base anything at all on a Bible verse that is so well known for being likely not in the original text at all.

But to move on to the main thrust of Fig's question about spotting the Christian by their deeds....
My answer is that we have to be always on-guard that we dont just ***ume a person is a Christian just because our quick glance of one of their actions fits into a preconceived idea of what a Christian should be doing.

A far, far better means to tell a Christian from a nonbeliever is to get into their theology.
Ask a few questions to them about the nature of God and His son.....from there it should lead you to the answer as to if they are a christian or not.

If we are not able to talk to the person but can only look at some of their actions we are always going to have some question about their salvation.

It is true that the Bible does say that good Christians are known by "our Love" for other Christians .
To me this shows us that while we all hope for unity on the main issues we yet should also look for charity on the side issues....the allowance for disagreement on side issues without condemnation that should be seen among Christians.

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

The error that Fig makes is found in his use of a highly questionable verse in the bible as the main support for his comment.
Its just never a good idea to base anything at all on a Bible verse that is so well known for being likely not in the original text at all.

Would this one be included in that scenario?


James 2:24---New American Standard Bible (NASB)
24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.

[alanmolstad]

we are "saved" by Grace though faith, and not by works....
So salvation is via the one path give us in the bible...ie Grace though faith...

But also there is a justified by works and a justified by faith>
So when we are just talking about the topic of being justified before God or men, we should keep this difference in mind.

That before men we are "justified" by works....
|This is just the normal means we look at people and decide if they are a member of the body of Christ or not.
we cant see in another person's heart, so we have no way to know for sure is a person is saved or not.
This is because when we consider how we are saved, (Grace though faith) we have to admit that all that happened inside the person's heart...and thus its unseen on the outside.


What is seen on the outside?
Works are seen.
This is why we in the Christian church talk about a person being " justified by works" ie being understood as having a new heart of a believer.
For I cant see your heart but I can see your words and deeds, and I can use them to tell what is going on unseen inside your heart between You and the Lord.

So that is the reason and use we in the Christian church have for the concept of justified by works.
We are not saying you are "saved" by works, for we know the Bible warns us over and over that we are not saved by works.
But we can use my works to get an idea what my relationship is to the Lord in my heart.


But what is then the justified by faith?
This is what goes on inside the person heart.
When we say we are justified by faith, this is talking about the unseen things that go on in your hidden heart between you and God.
this is talking about the nature of your soul.....are you saved?...are you lost?


In the Bible we see both the justified by works and the justified by faith at work hand-in-hand in the life of people.

like Abraham for example.
People could not see his inner heart, so a person can only tell if Abraham is a believer by his works.
In the act of raising the knife over his son, we see that Abraham is justified by works in the sight of men......

But God knew the heart of Abraham before he ever walked up the hill with his son....thats Justified by FAITH!.




So before men I am justified by works,
And before God I am justified by faith.


But at all times we are "saved" only by GRACE though FAITH!.........AMEN!

[alanmolstad]

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

we are "saved" by Grace though faith, and not by works....
So salvation is via the one path give us in the bible...ie Grace though faith...

Is that reference to faith--a dead faith?


James 2:26---King James Version (KJV)
26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

But also there is a justified by works and a justified by faith>
So when we are just talking about the topic of being justified before God or men, we should keep this difference in mind.

I don't believe this is a reference to being justified before men:


Hebrews 5:9---King James Version (KJV)
9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

What is seen on the outside? Works are seen.
This is why we in the Christian church talk about a person being " justified by works" ie being understood as having a new heart of a believer.
For I cant see your heart but I can see your words and deeds,

And the Lord judges mankind in accordance with those works:

Matthew 16:27--King James Version (KJV)
27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

Alan--the only time "faith alone" is mentioned within the Biblical text is this instance:


James 2:24---New American Standard Bible (NASB)
24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

he shall reward every man according to his works.[/B]

in an answer one time Jesus told the story of how at the judgement many men will have these huge lists of all the great "works' that they did to prove their salvation.
But Jesus totally rejected works as a means to that end...LOL

But dont "works' count at all?
yes they do count!
And...and......we know what "works" god will judge us by....for that is a question that was asked of Jesus.

A man asked him what must he do to do the "works of God?"

Guess what Jesus answered?......(the answer is as I have always said)



In the context the man asked about what were the 'works".....the "workS" of God that gd is looking for from us?
The idea is that the guy wanted to know what things were requir4ed?..what things where in the list of stuff we need to do?

But Jesus corrects him and tells him of "Thee work of God"
The idea is that Jesus answers and says that if you want to know the truth there is "Only ONE work that God is seeking from us"


Just one.....that you believe in He that is sent.
for we are saved by GRACE though Faith.

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

Alan--the only time "faith alone" is mentioned within the Biblical text is this instance:


James 2:24---New American Standard Bible (NASB)
24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.

What does Walter Martin say is the answer at the :32 point ofthe video.

Does Walter say its by "Faith alone"????



Have I ever said it was by "faith alone"...

Have I ever said it was by "fath and works"?

Have I ever said it was by "works alone"?




What have both I and Walter martin always taught, as we hear at the :32 second-point in the video?

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

in an answer one time Jesus told the story of how at the judgement many men will have these huge lists of all the great "works' that they did to prove their salvation.
But Jesus totally rejected works as a means to that end...LOL

Sure He did:


John 5:28-29---King James Version (KJV)

28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of ****ation.

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

What does Walter Martin say is the answer at the :32 point ofthe video.

Does Walter say its by "Faith alone"????

All faith alone adherents believe it is by faith alone. That is what faith alone theology is--a salvation through a faith that is alone--without works. The faith alone preach a salvation through dead faith.

If you disagree--please list for us what works you add to faith in salvation.

Otherwise:

James 2:26---King James Version (KJV)

26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

What does Walter Martin say is the answer at the :32 point ofthe video.

Does Walter say its by "Faith alone"????



Have I ever said it was by "faith alone"...

Have I ever said it was by "fath and works"?

Have I ever said it was by "works alone"?




What have both I and Walter martin always taught, as we hear at the :32 second-point in the video?

what does he say?

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

All faith alone adherents believe it is by faith alone. That is what faith alone theology is--a salvation through a faith that is alone--without works. The faith alone preach a salvation through dead faith.

If you disagree--please list for us what works you add to faith in salvation.

Otherwise:

James 2:26---King James Version (KJV)

26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

What did walter say?

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

What did walter say?

Walter is faith alone--he believes in a salvation through faith without works.

James 2:26---King James Version (KJV)
26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

[alanmolstad]

I'm asking what does he say?....

[alanmolstad]

Does he say faith alone?

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

I'm asking what does he say?....Does he say faith alone?

Walter Martin is faith alone--he believes that one is saved through a faith without works. That is what Walter explained--works are for justification before men--faith is for justification before God.

Interpretation:--Faith that is alone for salvation. One is saved through dead faith. That is faith alone (sola fide) theology.

If you disagree--please post to us what works you believe are added for salvation.

Alan--you are faith that is alone for salvation--are you not?

[alanmolstad]

I asked.....what did he say?

[alanmolstad]

Alan--you are faith that is alone for salvation--are you not?[/QUOTE]

The answer is at 32 second-point

[alanmolstad]

What does he say?

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

What does he say?

note I ask for what he says, the quote....and not what do you think he meant. ..

I have always said the very same thing as Walter says at that part of the clip, so if you are asking me what I believe (as you seem to be), and regardless of what I respond with you layer on stuff that has zero to do with my views but just is stuff you wanted me to have said, then perhaps I better ask you to "quote" Walter Martin.....quote him word for word, ....

That way regardless of how much you want him to have said "Faith alone" if you are forced to quote him correctly you are going to have to either quote him correctly , (and see your error),
Or.....

or intentionally misquote him or intentionally misrepresent his views...

So what does he say?



Does he say "Faith alone"?
Does he say "works alone"?
Does he say "Faith and works alone"?

Have I ever?

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

note I ask for what he says, the quote....and not what do you think he meant. ..

Walter believes in faith alone theology--faith without works for salvation. That is what Walter is--faith alone.

Do you disagree?

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

Walter believes in faith alone theology--faith without works for salvation. That is what Walter is--faith alone.

Do you disagree?

If you dont want to answer my question, just tell me...

But misrepresenting Walter's statements in the video is going to get me a bit upset...