Grace Controversy!

[jade84116]

Evangelicals claim to be moderate Calvinists, but they're divided over how to define what a moderate Calvinist is. Dr. James R. White of Alpha and Omega Ministries and Dr. John MacArthur of Grace to You Ministries both insist that a moderate Calvinist believes that salvation is all of God or grace. Other evangelicals like the late Jerry Falwell, Dave Hunt of the Berean Call and Dr. Norman Geisler insist that Grace includes freewill, their mantra being Chosen But Free. White's, MacArthur's, Falwell's, Hunt's and Geisler's videos are online at Youtube.com if you want to immerse yourself in that controversy. Any opinions on the controversy.

[tealblue]

Evangelicals claim to be moderate Calvinists, but they're divided over how to define what a moderate Calvinist is. Dr. James R. White of Alpha and Omega Ministries and Dr. John MacArthur of Grace to You Ministries both insist that a moderate Calvinist believes that salvation is all of God or grace. Other evangelicals like the late Jerry Falwell, Dave Hunt of the Berean Call and Dr. Norman Geisler insist that Grace includes freewill, their mantra being Chosen But Free. White's, MacArthur's, Falwell's, Hunt's and Geisler's videos are online at Youtube.com if you want to immerse yourself in that controversy. Any opinions on the controversy.

Here is what we all agree on about grace

1 Its free

2 Its required for salvation

3 Its something God gives us

Here are some questions

1 Is grace unconditional

2 Is grace irrisistable

3 Is grace given only to whom god chooses

4 Can grace be lost

Depending on ones definition of grace changes ones whole perspective on everything about the christian faith.

I personally believe grace is free unmerited favor that transforms us holy so that we can be justified before God.

[Norrin Radd]

Evangelicals claim to be moderate Calvinists, but they're divided over how to define what a moderate Calvinist is. Dr. James R. White of Alpha and Omega Ministries and Dr. John MacArthur of Grace to You Ministries both insist that a moderate Calvinist believes that salvation is all of God or grace. Other evangelicals like the late Jerry Falwell, Dave Hunt of the Berean Call and Dr. Norman Geisler insist that Grace includes freewill, their mantra being Chosen But Free. White's, MacArthur's, Falwell's, Hunt's and Geisler's videos are online at Youtube.com if you want to immerse yourself in that controversy. Any opinions on the controversy.

Not ALL Evangelicals make that claim. Many of us are happy to identify with Arminianism. I have seen knowledgeably Wesleyan-Arminians say that in practical terms, Geisler's "Moderate Calvinism" is barely (if at all) distinguishable from Arminianism, and I *think* I recall Geisler's son agreeing. Even in the book that sort of started this round of the debate, Chosen but Free, the book in which he self-identified with "Moderate" Calvinism, Geisler repudiated "Extreme" Arminianism (specifically "Open" Theism), but did not criticize "Moderate" Arminianism. One might reasonably conclude that while he identifies with what he calls Moderate Calvinism, Geisler would not feel far out of place within Moderate Arminianism.

[Saxon]

Evangelicals claim to be moderate Calvinists, but they're divided over how to define what a moderate Calvinist is. Dr. James R. White of Alpha and Omega Ministries and Dr. John MacArthur of Grace to You Ministries both insist that a moderate Calvinist believes that salvation is all of God or grace. Other evangelicals like the late Jerry Falwell, Dave Hunt of the Berean Call and Dr. Norman Geisler insist that Grace includes freewill, their mantra being Chosen But Free. White's, MacArthur's, Falwell's, Hunt's and Geisler's videos are online at Youtube.com if you want to immerse yourself in that controversy. Any opinions on the controversy.:)

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Ephesians 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Ephesians 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Ephesians 2:8 to 10 is the total explanation of the salvation, faith and works relationship.

that God has towards mankind. Salvation is totally and without exception, a work of grace, by God alone. God is never obligated to save anyone. If God became obligated then being saved by grace would be a false statement. Mankind cannot do anything that would cause God to be obligated to save him or her. The only reason God saves us is because he wants to save us.

Grace (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/grace)

a: unmerited divine assistance given humans for their regeneration or sanctification
b: a virtue coming from God
c: a state of sanctification enjoyed through divine grace

A practical example of grace is when banks would give 3 days grace to the client who had a loan or a mortgage. When the payment date came and the payment was not made the client had 3 days to make the payment without any extra fees or interest added to the principal. Those 3 days were a period of grace that the bank was not obligated to give a person but it was a free period where the client could make payment before the bank charged extra money. This is just an example of grace as we understand it. God’s grace operates the same way but there is no restriction on the time in this present era.

Faith (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/faith)

a (1): belief and trust in and loyalty to God
(2): belief in the traditional doctrines of a religion
b (1): firm belief in something for which there is no proof
(2): complete trust

It is through faith that God saves us by his grace. Acts 16:30 directly asks the question,” What must I do to be saved?” and Acts 16:31directly answers, “Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved”. This is all that a human being can do in order to be saved. Having faith and believing still does not obligate God to save anyone. The reason God saves us is that he wants to do it and he chose to save those that believe in Jesus. (See John 3:16)

Acts 16:30 And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?
Acts 16:31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Ephesians 2:10 states that we were “created in Christ Jesus unto good works”. Being saved we are placed into Christ and being “in Christ” we will do the works that God has desired us to do. Works are never done to gain salvation but works are a natural result of salvation by the grace of God.

[alanmolstad]

Walter Martin spoke about the errors he saw in Calvinism.....
I have posted the recording link on this forum many times.

I tend to believe as Walter did, in that of the 5 points of Calvinism there are some worth knowing, and some that are worthless

[Saxon]

Walter Martin spoke about the errors he saw in Calvinism.....
I have posted the recording link on this forum many times.

I tend to believe as Walter did, in that of the 5 points of Calvinism there are some worth knowing, and some that are worthless

That is Good but how does it relate to what I posted???

[alanmolstad]

That is Good but how does it relate to what I posted???

your post?...I didnt even read your post.

My post was aimed at this quote taken from the person who started this topic...
"Evangelicals claim to be moderate Calvinists, but they're divided over how to define what a moderate Calvinist is


Walter Martin is connected with this term "Evangelicals"

[Decalogue]

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Ephesians 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Ephesians 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Ephesians 2:8 to 10 is the total explanation of the salvation, faith and works relationship.

that God has towards mankind. Salvation is totally and without exception, a work of grace, by God alone. God is never obligated to save anyone. If God became obligated then being saved by grace would be a false statement. Mankind cannot do anything that would cause God to be obligated to save him or her. The only reason God saves us is because he wants to save us.

Grace (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/grace)

a: unmerited divine assistance given humans for their regeneration or sanctification
b: a virtue coming from God
c: a state of sanctification enjoyed through divine grace

A practical example of grace is when banks would give 3 days grace to the client who had a loan or a mortgage. When the payment date came and the payment was not made the client had 3 days to make the payment without any extra fees or interest added to the principal. Those 3 days were a period of grace that the bank was not obligated to give a person but it was a free period where the client could make payment before the bank charged extra money. This is just an example of grace as we understand it. God’s grace operates the same way but there is no restriction on the time in this present era.

Faith (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/faith)

a (1): belief and trust in and loyalty to God
(2): belief in the traditional doctrines of a religion
b (1): firm belief in something for which there is no proof
(2): complete trust

It is through faith that God saves us by his grace. Acts 16:30 directly asks the question,” What must I do to be saved?” and Acts 16:31directly answers, “Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved”. This is all that a human being can do in order to be saved. Having faith and believing still does not obligate God to save anyone. The reason God saves us is that he wants to do it and he chose to save those that believe in Jesus. (See John 3:16)

Acts 16:30 And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?
Acts 16:31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Ephesians 2:10 states that we were “created in Christ Jesus unto good works”. Being saved we are placed into Christ and being “in Christ” we will do the works that God has desired us to do. Works are never done to gain salvation but works are a natural result of salvation by the grace of God.

Saxon - Very good post and right-on-the-money ! You did your homework well. Post more often on the boards here.

Per that silly book by Norman Giesler ... oy voy ---

I used to watch Giesler sometimes back on the TV program hosted by the guy with the scandinavian name and the very blond/white hair. Geisler was a good apologist. ( That was in the late 1980's. ) Time goes by ,,, and then he writes a goofy-fuzzy-headed book with that goofy/fuzzy-headed ***le.
aarrgghh !

If we are "chosen" we are not "free" ! Geisler needs to buy a dictionary and his publisher needs to grow a spine.

There is not one verse in the New Testament that says humans have a "freewill" . If you doubt that statement , then open up your Concordance and give a look-see.

[alanmolstad]

Jesus could not ask us to follow him, if we were unable to decide to do that.

We could not be asked to "repent" if we were unable to have 2nd thoughts about our actions, and change our minds.

The whole concept of sending out men to spread the word, or preaching the word, of telling people they need to change their ways, , all of this in the Great Commission is based on the idea that humans have free will and can respond.

[Decalogue]

Well ... Let's get back to Scripture . The Great Commission was given by Jesus Christ to His Disciples in Matthew 28. In that passage there is not a certified promise that just because the Disciples preach to goats , the goats will become sheep.

The very same Jesus Christ also spoke some things in John chapter 6 , 10 , and 17 that the John 3:16 quoters always avoid.

Open up and read John chapter 6 verse 65. Pretty plain from that verse spoken by the very One that went to the cross , that humans do NOT do the choosing , but it is God Almighty.

Ephesians is plain as black and white ! Not one verse in Ephesians or in the New Testament says that humans have a "freewill". You find that verse ... open up your concordance and look ! You find that verse , and I'll buy yaa a cigar !

We are the sinners and The Lord Jesus is the Saviour. Just as we did not pick our earthly parents , we did not choose Him , but if we are believers - He chose us.

Here is a message ***led "The Amyrauldian Heresy" - sub***led; Geisler's Chosen but free. by Rev. Bob Phillips. He does have a southern accent , but listen to it anyway. Not all southerners are peanut farmers...

http://www.sermonaudio.com/sermoninf...ID322111721430

[Dmarie]

Saxon - Very good post and right-on-the-money ! You did your homework well. Post more often on the boards here.

Per that silly book by Norman Giesler ... oy voy ---

I used to watch Giesler sometimes back on the TV program hosted by the guy with the scandinavian name and the very blond/white hair. Geisler was a good apologist. ( That was in the late 1980's. ) Time goes by ,,, and then he writes a goofy-fuzzy-headed book with that goofy/fuzzy-headed ***le.
aarrgghh !

If we are "chosen" we are not "free" ! Geisler needs to buy a dictionary and his publisher needs to grow a spine.

There is not one verse in the New Testament that says humans have a "freewill" . If you doubt that statement , then open up your Concordance and give a look-see.

Hi, and blessings.

Well, I bypassed my concordance, and I went straight to the Word of God, to the begining...in Genesis, in the garden...I read how God did give Adam and Eve the "freewill" to choose between being obedient to Him, or not.
We all know how that went.
God certainly, and obviously didn't make that choice for them, or...
did He?

By the way, I did a "look-see" and the word "Bible" in not found in the Bible either.

Blessings...Dmarie

[alanmolstad]

Dmarie...good commenting

[Saxon]

Saxon - Very good post and right-on-the-money ! You did your homework well. Post more often on the boards here.

Per that silly book by Norman Giesler ... oy voy ---

I used to watch Giesler sometimes back on the TV program hosted by the guy with the scandinavian name and the very blond/white hair. Geisler was a good apologist. ( That was in the late 1980's. ) Time goes by ,,, and then he writes a goofy-fuzzy-headed book with that goofy/fuzzy-headed ***le.
aarrgghh !

If we are "chosen" we are not "free" ! Geisler needs to buy a dictionary and his publisher needs to grow a spine.

There is not one verse in the New Testament that says humans have a "freewill" . If you doubt that statement , then open up your Concordance and give a look-see.

After re-reading your positive response to my, "Grace is an At***ude" post, I have come to the conclusion that you have not understood my position at all. Your statement, " If we are "chosen" we are not "free"!" alerts me that I have failed to be clear in what I was saying.

Being chosen has nothing to do with being free. 2Timothy 1:9 states that God has saved us, and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began. Those that were chosen were the ones that were already "in Christ Jesus" before the world began.

Ephesians 2:8 says that we are saved by grace (God's part) through faith (our part). Mankind has the freedom and responsibility to exercise faith in Christ. We have been given faith but we are the ones that resolve where we will place the faith that is given us, in Christ, or in something other than Christ.

You are correct in the fact that a concordance does not have "freewill" in it but neither does it have "Trinity" in it. We have been commanded to choose (See Joshua 24:15 and Isaiah 1:18 to 20).



2Timothy 1:9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,


Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Ephesians 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Ephesians 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.


Joshua 24:15 And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.


Isaiah 1:18 Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.
Isaiah 1:19 If ye be willing and obedient, ye shall eat the good of the land:
Isaiah 1:20 But if ye refuse and rebel, ye shall be devoured with the sword: for the mouth of the LORD hath spoken it.