Grace Controversy!

[Saxon]

Originally Posted by Decalogue

Saxon - Very good post and right-on-the-money ! You did your homework well. Post more often on the boards here.

Per that silly book by Norman Giesler ... oy voy ---

I used to watch Giesler sometimes back on the TV program hosted by the guy with the scandinavian name and the very blond/white hair. Geisler was a good apologist. ( That was in the late 1980's. ) Time goes by ,,, and then he writes a goofy-fuzzy-headed book with that goofy/fuzzy-headed ***le.
aarrgghh !

If we are "chosen" we are not "free" ! Geisler needs to buy a dictionary and his publisher needs to grow a spine.

There is not one verse in the New Testament that says humans have a "freewill" . If you doubt that statement , then open up your Concordance and give a look-see.

After re-reading your positive response to my, "Grace is an At***ude" post, I have come to the conclusion that you have not understood my position at all. Your statement, " If we are "chosen" we are not "free"!" alerts me that I have failed to be clear in what I was saying.

Being chosen has nothing to do with being free. 2Timothy 1:9 states that God has saved us, and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began. Those that were chosen were the ones that were already "in Christ Jesus" before the world began.

Ephesians 2:8 says that we are saved by grace (God's part) through faith (our part). Mankind has the freedom and responsibility to exercise faith in Christ. We have been given faith but we are the ones that resolve where we will place the faith that is given us, in Christ, or in something other than Christ.

You are correct in the fact that a concordance does not have "freewill" in it but neither does it have "Trinity" in it. We have been commanded to choose (See Joshua 24:15 and Isaiah 1:18 to 20).



2Timothy 1:9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,


Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Ephesians 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Ephesians 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.


Joshua 24:15 And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.


Isaiah 1:18 Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.
Isaiah 1:19 If ye be willing and obedient, ye shall eat the good of the land:
Isaiah 1:20 But if ye refuse and rebel, ye shall be devoured with the sword: for the mouth of the LORD hath spoken it.

[alanmolstad]

we are always free...always

and we are always chosen...always...

[Saxon]

Please explain what you are saying and add some support from scripture.

[alanmolstad]

There is nothing stopping any man from believing, but himself and his own free will.
Christ wept for the people of the Holy City not because they 'could not" come to him because there were never drawn ,,,,,but that they "would not " come to him regardless of how much they were drawn.

We never lose our free Will.....
For our Free will is always part of the salvation story...


and that they who do come to Christians not just there by their own efforts, but rather God predestined us to become believers from before the world was made.

[Saxon]

There is nothing stopping any man from believing, but himself and his own free will.
Christ wept for the people of the Holy City not because they 'could not" come to him because there were never drawn ,,,,,but that they "would not " come to him regardless of how much they were drawn.

We never lose our free Will.....
For our Free will is always part of the salvation story...

I totally agree with the above statement. No argument at all.

and that they who do come to Christians not just there by their own efforts, but rather God predestined us to become believers from before the world was made.

I see NOTHING in scripture that states that anyone has been predestined by God to become believers. I see statements that tell us that those that are in Christ, saved people are predestined to be conformed to the image of Christ. There are those that are in Christ that are predestined to adoption. The only ones that are predestined by God to anything are those that are already in Christ.

Ephesians 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
Ephesians 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
Ephesians 1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

Romans 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

[alanmolstad]

none that are predestined are lost.......none!

all that are predestined are saved....all!

[alanmolstad]

http://www.blogtalkradio.com/walterm...predestination

[Saxon]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

none that are predestined are lost.......none!

all that are predestined are saved....all!

God has chosen us, which are in Christ, to all spiritual blessings before the foundation of the world. In Christ he did also predestinate us unto the adoption of children. In Christ we have obtained an inheritance being predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things after the counsel of his own will. Also, in Christ, after you believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit.

God has not predestined chosen or blessed anyone that is not first in Christ. A person must freely believe and receive Christ in order to partake in the blessings that God has predestined for those that are in Christ and love him.

Eph 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
Eph 1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
Eph 1:6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.
Eph 1:7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;
Eph 1:8 Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence;
Eph 1:9 Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:
Eph 1:10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:
Eph 1:11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:
Ephesians 1:12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.
Ephesians 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that Holy Spirit of promise,
Ephesians 1:14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

God does not predestine or choose anyone to salvation nor does he let the rest “go his or her natural way”. Jesus is the true light that lights every man that comes into the world. (See John 1:9) Every person that ever was or ever will be has an equal opportunity to believe in and receive Christ. God chooses in accordance with the decision that each person has to make, either reject Christ and remain in sin or accept Christ and be saved. God has chosen us because the Spirit has sanctified us and he sanctified us because we believed the truth. (See 2Thess. 2:13)

John 1:9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.

2Thess. 2:13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth.

[alanmolstad]

there is no "later" with God

God does not actually do anything "after" something else.

God does not "predestine" someone after something else that came first.




Its like what Walter talks about in the link I posted....where the image is that we walk into heaven under a banner of "Welcome all yea who have responded"...only to get on the other side and read on the same banner, "None were lost, all who enter were chosen and predestined from before the world was made, none were lost, all were saved"

[Saxon]

You have said nothing that is of any use to the topic. Your link didn't even say anything .

You are a moderator and you should have more skills at responding to posts that you disagree with.

Show me scripture that even comes close to stating what you have poorly stated.

[alanmolstad]

The point to note is at 6:30 of the video.


"Now, how do you maintain the freedom of God, and His sovereignty, and the freedom of man and his choice?

"Are you ready?"

"You don't" !

"It is an unanswered question. You will search though all scriptures, you will never find the answer"

[Saxon]

Walter is not the inspired source of scripture. I am sure that he would agree. He quoted the same scripture that I quoted in my previous post and has missed the same thing that you have missed. "In Christ" Nothing happens to people (predestination) until they are in Christ. There is no statement directly stating that God predestined anyone to salvation. In the clear statements as to what people are predestined to it is clear that it is the saved that have been predestined. The lost are not included in what God has predestined. Remember we were all born lost sinners and we were NOT in Christ until we were saved in time upon the earth. No one is born saved.

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by Saxon

You are a moderator and you should have more skills ......

Being a Mod does not make a person smart. (wish it did, but it doesn't)
But it does require one to be patient.

[Saxon]

I am slipping, sorry.

You as a person should be more clear and to the point with your answers. That is my opinion.

[alanmolstad]

from the human point of view:
We are limited in what we see.
We dont know the future.
we are trapped in time, and experence moment after moment.
We age, we get older, we change we learn new things.
To find something out we have to seek answers.

so when I consider my salvation , I can think back to a moment in time when I p***ed from death to life.

My salvation came as the result of a moment in time when I believed.
I was lost one moment, and the next I was saved.
So it all came down to a decision i made.
I was asked to belioeve.
I was told that unless I believed I would remain lost.
So I changed my mind, and I believed and I was from that point on, saved.


thats the human point of view.

its correct, sorta.


But its also way short of the correct answer too.

For when you look at the same question of my salvation from God's point of view, then you see things differently.

God does not learn.
God does not wait
God does not have to glance into the future to know.
God is not held in time's grasp.

My salvation was always a fact in God's eyes.
Nothing was ever in doubt
Nothing was ever left for me to decide,
Nothing was left to chance
Nothing was out of God's full 100% total control.
I was saved because I had always been seen as saved and nothing in the world could change that fact...for it was a fact from the start of the universe!

I was "predestined"...nothing was left in doubt or up to me to decide.

God decided...

[Saxon]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

from the human point of view:
We are limited in what we see.
We dont know the future.
we are trapped in time, and experence moment after moment.
We age, we get older, we change we learn new things.
To find something out we have to seek answers.

so when I consider my salvation , I can think back to a moment in time when I p***ed from death to life.

My salvation came as the result of a moment in time when I believed.
I was lost one moment, and the next I was saved.
So it all came down to a decision i made.
I was asked to belioeve.
I was told that unless I believed I would remain lost.
So I changed my mind, and I believed and I was from that point on, saved.


thats the human point of view.

its correct, sorta.


But its also way short of the correct answer too.

For when you look at the same question of my salvation from God's point of view, then you see things differently.

God does not learn.
God does not wait
God does not have to glance into the future to know.
God is not held in time's grasp.

My salvation was always a fact in God's eyes.
Nothing was ever in doubt
Nothing was ever left for me to decide,
Nothing was left to chance
Nothing was out of God's full 100% total control.
I was saved because I had always been seen as saved and nothing in the world could change that fact...for it was a fact from the start of the universe!

I was "predestined"...nothing was left in doubt or up to me to decide.

God decided...

The fortunate thing about your statement is that it is totally true in accordance with the Bible. That is exactly what the Bible says about salvation. That is all that we know about salvation, if we indeed know anything. To be honest with you that is all that we can know about salvation is the human point of view because God told us in human point of view terms about salvation and if you look around, we, as a collective, still have it unclear. Just look at the controversy that is totally obvious just on these forums. Mormons, Catholics, JW, UPC, and on it goes. No one agrees about salvation.

Now you want to explain it from God’s point of view?? You are only fooling yourself if you really think that you have a clue about God’s point of view. (See Isaiah 55:8 and 9)

You have made a few philosophical statements that are likely true about God:
God does not learn. God does not wait. God does not have to glance into the future to know. God is not held in time's grasp.

But this has nothing to do with what God has revealed to man on man’s level so man could come close to understanding about salvation. The last part of the statement is pure emotional drivel with no scriptural support to it what so ever.

I totally reject your argument. Start again but keep it on the human point of view because that is as close to a true understanding that you or I will ever get.

Isaiah 55:8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the Lord.
Isaiah 55:9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.

[alanmolstad]

to only look at a issue from a point of view you know is lacking, is not wise.

The human point of view is very much lacking.

I have no problem looking at the question of my salvation from God's point of view.

This keeps me from falling into the trap of both Calvin and Arminius...for once you get trapped in their teachings you mess up your understanding of both God and the universe

[Saxon]

We cannot understand God's point of view (See Isaiah 55:8 and 9)

Delving into what we cannot understand only serves to confuse the subject.

Isaiah 55:8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the Lord.

Isaiah 55:9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by Saxon

We cannot understand God's point of view (See Isaiah 55:8 and 9)

.

then we cant be judged....

[Saxon]

We are not judged on the basics of our inability to understand God, at his level, but on our actions in time, in accordance with what God has revealed to us at a level of our capability to understand. Your argument is still invalid.

[alanmolstad]

when I send a child to the store, and they come back from the store with the wrong thing,...then I cant blame them for this unless I made it very clear to them what I wanted.

If I hid anything from them , then I cant blame them for not understanding ...and for failing to bring me what I wanted.

[Saxon]

Are you suggesting that God somehow didn't tell us something? God told us what we need to know at a level that we are capable of understanding. If he had told us at his level or point of view then you can be sure that we would never understand. Look and read what Isaiah 55:8-9 is saying then you explain to me what you think it is saying.


Isaiah 55:8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the Lord.

Isaiah 55:9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.

[alanmolstad]

at 7:05
"Now Calvin was wrong when he said that God predestined men to hell, and James Arminius was wrong when he said you willed your way to heaven"


So the answer is?

Well the answer is not that God just looked into the future, saw who would eventually would believe, and so predestined them, for that would make us somehow "special"...somehow worth saving where others were not.

And we know that is not true for the bible says all have fallen short, that there is none righteous, no not one!

So the answer is not that God just knew who was going to believe and so saved them, for that would make us 'good'
and the answer is not that God just arbitrarily decided to say, "You I will save and to hell with the rest of you"

So if thats what it NOT the answer, what is the answer?

The answer is this -
In the mind of the Creator there is a perfect union between what god knows and foreordains... AND .....with what man is fully capable of responding to.


That's the answer....

[Saxon]

I have already commented on this video. I would rather have you explain it in your own words and thoughts.

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

.......

The answer is this -
In the mind of the Creator there is a perfect union between what god knows and foreordains... AND .....with what man is fully capable of responding to.


That's the answer....

and that is why my teaching on the matter (in my own words) is the following -


from the human point of view:
We are limited in what we see.
We dont know the future.
we are trapped in time, and experence moment after moment.
We age, we get older, we change we learn new things.
To find something out we have to seek answers.

so when I consider my salvation , I can think back to a moment in time when I p***ed from death to life.

My salvation came as the result of a moment in time when I believed.
I was lost one moment, and the next I was saved.
So it all came down to a decision i made.
I was asked to belioeve.
I was told that unless I believed I would remain lost.
So I changed my mind, and I believed and I was from that point on, saved.


thats the human point of view.

its correct, sorta.


But its also way short of the correct answer too.

For when you look at the same question of my salvation from God's point of view, then you see things differently.

God does not learn.
God does not wait
God does not have to glance into the future to know.
God is not held in time's grasp.

My salvation was always a fact in God's eyes.
Nothing was ever in doubt
Nothing was ever left for me to decide,
Nothing was left to chance
Nothing was out of God's full 100% total control.
I was saved because I had always been seen as saved and nothing in the world could change that fact...for it was a fact from the start of the universe!

I was "predestined"...nothing was left in doubt or up to me to decide.

God decided...