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Thread: Grace Controversy!

  1. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post
    from the human point of view:
    We are limited in what we see.
    We dont know the future.
    we are trapped in time, and experence moment after moment.
    We age, we get older, we change we learn new things.
    To find something out we have to seek answers.

    so when I consider my salvation , I can think back to a moment in time when I p***ed from death to life.

    My salvation came as the result of a moment in time when I believed.
    I was lost one moment, and the next I was saved.
    So it all came down to a decision i made.
    I was asked to belioeve.
    I was told that unless I believed I would remain lost.
    So I changed my mind, and I believed and I was from that point on, saved.


    thats the human point of view.

    its correct, sorta.


    But its also way short of the correct answer too.

    For when you look at the same question of my salvation from God's point of view, then you see things differently.

    God does not learn.
    God does not wait
    God does not have to glance into the future to know.
    God is not held in time's grasp.

    My salvation was always a fact in God's eyes.
    Nothing was ever in doubt
    Nothing was ever left for me to decide,
    Nothing was left to chance
    Nothing was out of God's full 100% total control.
    I was saved because I had always been seen as saved and nothing in the world could change that fact...for it was a fact from the start of the universe!

    I was "predestined"...nothing was left in doubt or up to me to decide.

    God decided...

    The fortunate thing about your statement is that it is totally true in accordance with the Bible. That is exactly what the Bible says about salvation. That is all that we know about salvation, if we indeed know anything. To be honest with you that is all that we can know about salvation is the human point of view because God told us in human point of view terms about salvation and if you look around, we, as a collective, still have it unclear. Just look at the controversy that is totally obvious just on these forums. Mormons, Catholics, JW, UPC, and on it goes. No one agrees about salvation.

    Now you want to explain it from Godís point of view?? You are only fooling yourself if you really think that you have a clue about Godís point of view. (See Isaiah 55:8 and 9)

    You have made a few philosophical statements that are likely true about God:
    God does not learn. God does not wait. God does not have to glance into the future to know. God is not held in time's grasp.

    But this has nothing to do with what God has revealed to man on manís level so man could come close to understanding about salvation. The last part of the statement is pure emotional drivel with no scriptural support to it what so ever.

    I totally reject your argument. Start again but keep it on the human point of view because that is as close to a true understanding that you or I will ever get.

    Isaiah 55:8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the Lord.
    Isaiah 55:9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.
    Be ready to pray, preach or die at a moments notice

  2. #27
    alanmolstad
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    to only look at a issue from a point of view you know is lacking, is not wise.

    The human point of view is very much lacking.

    I have no problem looking at the question of my salvation from God's point of view.

    This keeps me from falling into the trap of both Calvin and Arminius...for once you get trapped in their teachings you mess up your understanding of both God and the universe

  3. #28
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    We cannot understand God's point of view (See Isaiah 55:8 and 9)

    Delving into what we cannot understand only serves to confuse the subject.

    Isaiah 55:8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the Lord.

    Isaiah 55:9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.
    Be ready to pray, preach or die at a moments notice

  4. #29
    alanmolstad
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    Quote Originally Posted by Saxon View Post
    We cannot understand God's point of view (See Isaiah 55:8 and 9)

    .
    then we cant be judged....

  5. #30
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    We are not judged on the basics of our inability to understand God, at his level, but on our actions in time, in accordance with what God has revealed to us at a level of our capability to understand. Your argument is still invalid.
    Be ready to pray, preach or die at a moments notice

  6. #31
    alanmolstad
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    when I send a child to the store, and they come back from the store with the wrong thing,...then I cant blame them for this unless I made it very clear to them what I wanted.

    If I hid anything from them , then I cant blame them for not understanding ...and for failing to bring me what I wanted.

  7. #32
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    Are you suggesting that God somehow didn't tell us something? God told us what we need to know at a level that we are capable of understanding. If he had told us at his level or point of view then you can be sure that we would never understand. Look and read what Isaiah 55:8-9 is saying then you explain to me what you think it is saying.


    Isaiah 55:8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the Lord.

    Isaiah 55:9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.
    Be ready to pray, preach or die at a moments notice

  8. #33
    alanmolstad
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    at 7:05
    "Now Calvin was wrong when he said that God predestined men to hell, and James Arminius was wrong when he said you willed your way to heaven"


    So the answer is?

    Well the answer is not that God just looked into the future, saw who would eventually would believe, and so predestined them, for that would make us somehow "special"...somehow worth saving where others were not.

    And we know that is not true for the bible says all have fallen short, that there is none righteous, no not one!

    So the answer is not that God just knew who was going to believe and so saved them, for that would make us 'good'
    and the answer is not that God just arbitrarily decided to say, "You I will save and to hell with the rest of you"

    So if thats what it NOT the answer, what is the answer?

    The answer is this -
    In the mind of the Creator there is a perfect union between what god knows and foreordains... AND .....with what man is fully capable of responding to.


    That's the answer....
    Last edited by alanmolstad; 03-15-2017 at 05:40 PM.

  9. #34
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    I have already commented on this video. I would rather have you explain it in your own words and thoughts.
    Be ready to pray, preach or die at a moments notice

  10. #35
    alanmolstad
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    Quote Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post
    .......

    The answer is this -
    In the mind of the Creator there is a perfect union between what god knows and foreordains... AND .....with what man is fully capable of responding to.


    That's the answer....

    and that is why my teaching on the matter (in my own words) is the following -


    from the human point of view:
    We are limited in what we see.
    We dont know the future.
    we are trapped in time, and experence moment after moment.
    We age, we get older, we change we learn new things.
    To find something out we have to seek answers.

    so when I consider my salvation , I can think back to a moment in time when I p***ed from death to life.

    My salvation came as the result of a moment in time when I believed.
    I was lost one moment, and the next I was saved.
    So it all came down to a decision i made.
    I was asked to belioeve.
    I was told that unless I believed I would remain lost.
    So I changed my mind, and I believed and I was from that point on, saved.


    thats the human point of view.

    its correct, sorta.


    But its also way short of the correct answer too.

    For when you look at the same question of my salvation from God's point of view, then you see things differently.

    God does not learn.
    God does not wait
    God does not have to glance into the future to know.
    God is not held in time's grasp.

    My salvation was always a fact in God's eyes.
    Nothing was ever in doubt
    Nothing was ever left for me to decide,
    Nothing was left to chance
    Nothing was out of God's full 100% total control.
    I was saved because I had always been seen as saved and nothing in the world could change that fact...for it was a fact from the start of the universe!

    I was "predestined"...nothing was left in doubt or up to me to decide.

    God decided...

  11. #36
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    I have also commented on this and do not agree with you because of scripture that points to man's inability to understand God unless he comunicates to us on OUr level because we have no hope of understanding him from his level and point of view.

    I do not agree with your conclusion as to God predesignating the unsaved to anything, especially to salvation.

    Ephesians 1:3 to 13, if read with the idea that it is those that are in Christ as stated in these verses are the ones that all the blessing mentioned are for those that are found to be in Christ by the grace of God through faith then it makes more sense that God picked a few for no apparent reason.
    Be ready to pray, preach or die at a moments notice

  12. #37
    alanmolstad
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    In the mind of the Creator there is a perfect union between what god knows and foreordains... AND .....with what man is fully capable of responding to.

  13. #38
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    What do you believe that God knows and foreordains? Scripture that leads you to your belief would be helpful.

    When man responds is it by free will or the compulsion of God's supposed foreordaining of the questioned events?
    Be ready to pray, preach or die at a moments notice

  14. #39
    alanmolstad
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    Quote Originally Posted by Saxon View Post
    What do you believe that God knows?......

    Near the ending of the teaching part of the video I posted, you hear Walter talk about the fact that as his life has went on he has become more and more convinced that "Nothing happens by accident"

    That God knows everything about everything.

  15. #40
    alanmolstad
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    Quote Originally Posted by Saxon View Post
    What do you believe that God .....foreordains?
    If we say that God "foreordains us humans , but nothing else to happen in the universe?....., we are limiting God, or making ourselves special....both are errors.

  16. #41
    alanmolstad
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    Quote Originally Posted by Saxon View Post

    When man responds is it by free will or the compulsion of God's ......?

    The answer is "yes"


    it is as I said above -

    "The answer is this -
    In the mind of the Creator there is a perfect union between what god knows and foreordains... AND .....with what man is fully capable of responding to.


    That's the answer....

    Last edited by alanmolstad; 03-15-2017 at 07:08 PM.

  17. #42
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    That clearly does not answer my question.
    Be ready to pray, preach or die at a moments notice

  18. #43
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    No scripture to support????
    Be ready to pray, preach or die at a moments notice

  19. #44
    alanmolstad
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    Quote Originally Posted by Saxon View Post
    That clearly does not answer my question.
    Walter actually addressed your point as well at 8:50 of the linked video.


    "You expected Parcheesi?"
    "Chinese checkers?"

  20. #45
    alanmolstad
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    Quote Originally Posted by Saxon View Post
    No scripture to support????
    well, ok,
    But you did kinda ask for me to answer in my own words...

  21. #46
    alanmolstad
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    But you do ask a question that many teachers have also asked, - "When man responds is it by free will or the compulsion of God?"

    The way your question is worded it ***umes that the answer is one or the other.
    The question is written that way because we humans tend to think that way...
    We like to believe that an answer is ether "this" or its "that".

    We look at the text from this mindset that only one can be true and we find plenty of support for our answer, and thereby automatically dismiss the many Texts that support the other side.

    This is the error of both Calvin and Arminius.

    But the truth is, that if you look you can find support for both answers being true.

    How can this be true?.....the answer to that is "Why would it not be this way, considering you are dealing with the mind of God?"





    Thus we get to the answer I have learned to trust, from a Bible teacher I have learned to trust, "In the mind of the Creator there is a perfect union between what god knows and foreordains... AND .....with what man is fully capable of responding to.

  22. #47
    alanmolstad
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    Quote Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post
    from the human point of view:
    We are limited in what we see.
    We dont know the future.
    we are trapped in time, and experence moment after moment.
    We age, we get older, we change we learn new things.
    To find something out we have to seek answers.

    so when I consider my salvation , I can think back to a moment in time when I p***ed from death to life.

    My salvation came as the result of a moment in time when I believed.
    I was lost one moment, and the next I was saved.
    So it all came down to a decision i made.
    I was asked to belioeve.
    I was told that unless I believed I would remain lost.
    So I changed my mind, and I believed and I was from that point on, saved.


    thats the human point of view.

    its correct, sorta.


    But its also way short of the correct answer too.

    For when you look at the same question of my salvation from God's point of view, then you see things differently.

    God does not learn.
    God does not wait
    God does not have to glance into the future to know.
    God is not held in time's grasp.

    My salvation was always a fact in God's eyes.
    Nothing was ever in doubt
    Nothing was ever left for me to decide,
    Nothing was left to chance
    Nothing was out of God's full 100% total control.
    I was saved because I had always been seen as saved and nothing in the world could change that fact...for it was a fact from the start of the universe!

    I was "predestined"...nothing was left in doubt or up to me to decide.

    God decided...
    I think my post above is very clear...
    I addressed the question of salvation from both the limited, human point of view, and from the eternal point of view of the Lord's.

  23. #48
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    How is it that "it all came down to a decision" and yet "there was nothing left for you to decide. What you have stated is a total impossibility.

    To what were you predestined? When were you predestined? Supply book chapter and verse to support your claim.
    Be ready to pray, preach or die at a moments notice

  24. #49
    alanmolstad
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    From the beginng...nothing was unknown or left to chance

  25. #50
    alanmolstad
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    I posted the video that talks about this on the first page...post 21 I think

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