Is your Salvation Arbitrary or Works-Based?

[maklelan]

Salvation is either arbitrary or based on human works. Since God has done his part and offers salvation to all, those are the only two perspectives that can possibly be held. Any action that is required on the part of humanity at all renders your salvation works-based. This means if you believe someone has to accept Christ, believe the right things, not deny salvation, have a willing heart, or anything else, then that actions qualifies the person for salvation, making it works-based. If you believe that nothing any human does can effect salvation then it's utterly arbitrary, and no amount preaching, believing, orthodoxy, righteousness, or anything else can change it. The pros***ute, the murderer, the child, the Evangelical, the Buddhist, and the atheist all have equal odds in the great coin flip in the sky.

Brian believes it's neither, but that's not possible, and he can't explain how it could be, although he is very adept at nakedly ***erting it is. I invite anyone who thinks they can to explain how salvation can be anything other than arbitrary or works-based.

[Fig-bearing Thistle]

Originally Posted by maklelan

Salvation is either arbitrary or based on human works. Since God has done his part and offers salvation to all, those are the only two perspectives that can possibly be held. Any action that is required on the part of humanity at all renders your salvation works-based. This means if you believe someone has to accept Christ, believe the right things, not deny salvation, have a willing heart, or anything else, then that actions qualifies the person for salvation, making it works-based. If you believe that nothing any human does can effect salvation then it's utterly arbitrary, and no amount preaching, believing, orthodoxy, righteousness, or anything else can change it. The pros***ute, the murderer, the child, the Evangelical, the Buddhist, and the atheist all have equal odds in the great coin flip in the sky.

Brian believes it's neither, but that's not possible, and he can't explain how it could be, although he is very adept at nakedly ***erting it is. I invite anyone who thinks they can to explain how salvation can be anything other than arbitrary or works-based.

A person must be an active participant in his/her own salvation. Salvation is a joint / cooperative work. Spiritual lip-serving couch potatoes don't make it.

[BrianH]

Do you consider making a decision to be a "work"?

-BH

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[Fig-bearing Thistle]

Originally Posted by BrianH

Do you consider making a decision to be a "work"?

-BH
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Making it? Not really, though it is still something God cannot do for you.

Following through on a decision? Yes. I consider that work.

Do you consider lip-service Christianity sufficient and sincere?

[BrianH]

Making it? Not really, though it is still something God cannot do for you.

I agree.

Following through on a decision? Yes. I consider that work.

So then your salvation is based on nothing BUT your own work. And since you have established that your salvation is based on your work and since God's standard is perfection, therefore sicne your work is not perfect, you are not saved.

Do you consider lip-service Christianity sufficient and sincere?

Nope.

Guess who the Bible says does the work IN us (Christians), Fig.

-BH

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[Fig-bearing Thistle]

Originally Posted by BrianH

I agree.




So then your salvation is based on nothing BUT your own work.

Where did the "nothing BUT" come from? Your words undoubtedly. You set up a false dichotomy here.

God cannot save us w/o our work (participation and adherence to His condiditons), and we cannot be saved w/o His.

[BrianH]

Where did the "nothing BUT" come from? Your words undoubtedly. You set up a false dichotomy here.

Well ...it is an inference. If YOU consider a decision to be a work, then everything you decide is a work, right? What do you ever DO without deciding to do it? And BTW, that is no dichotomy at all, let alone a false dichotomy. (I HIGHLY recommend that you learn the meaning of terms BEFORE you try to use them in public.)

God cannot save us w/o our work (participation and adherence to His condiditons), and we cannot be saved w/o His.

So then according to you, God is limited in his salvific actions to what YOU can help him with. Your God needs YOUR help to save you. Christ's atonement was insufficient for YOU, right?

I note with interest that you are trying to be very careful in your choice of words. While I think it is obvious that people must choose to receive God's grace and thus "participate" in some sense. But what is "adherence to his conditions"? What are those "conditions"? Are they, works that earn your salvation perhaps? After all, according to you God CANNOT save without that adherence.

-BH

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[Fig-bearing Thistle]

Originally Posted by BrianH

Well ...it is an inference. If YOU consider a decision to be a work, then everything you decide is a work, right? What do you ever DO without deciding to do it? And BTW, that is no dichotomy at all, let alone a false dichotomy. (I HIGHLY recommend that you learn the meaning of terms BEFORE you try to use them in public.)

Well your inference was wrong. I could infer that you believe salvation is nothing but arbitrary. Would that be correct in your mind?

Originally Posted by BrianH

So then according to you, God is limited in his salvific actions to what YOU can help him with. Your God needs YOUR help to save you. Christ's atonement was insufficient for YOU, right?

God does not super-impose his will to force a person to heaven or hell. The choice is ours, and God provides a way according to our choice.

Originally Posted by BrianH

I note with interest that you are trying to be very careful in your choice of words. While I think it is obvious that people must choose to receive God's grace and thus "participate" in some sense. But what is "adherence to his conditions"? What are those "conditions"? Are they, works that earn your salvation perhaps? After all, according to you God CANNOT save without that adherence.

-BH

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Yes, God will not force a man into heaven.

[BrianH]

Well your inference was wrong. I could infer that you believe salvation is nothing but arbitrary. Would that be correct in your mind?

But precisely HOW is my inference wrong? If YOU consider a decision to be a work, then everything you decide is a work, right? Are you perhaps trying to say that SOME decisions are a work and others are NOT?

God does not super-impose his will to force a person to heaven or hell. The choice is ours, and God provides a way according to our choice.

I have no problem with that. But it does not address the issue to which you are responding here. According to you, God cannot save us without our work. That means that, according to YOU, God is limited in his salvific actions to what YOU can help him with. Your God needs YOUR help to save you. Christ's atonement was insufficient for YOU, right?

Yes, God will not force a man into heaven.

Oh ...kaayyy ...But that does not answer my question. Please read it again and do your best to think about it, then actually ANSWER it, K? Here it is again: But what is "adherence to his conditions"? What are those "conditions"? Are they works that earn your salvation perhaps? After all, according to you God CANNOT save without that adherence

thank you

-BH

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[maklelan]

Originally Posted by BrianH

Do you consider making a decision to be a "work"?

-BH

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Absolutely. Do you not?

[BrianH]

Nope.
-BH

(NT)

[Richard]

Originally Posted by BrianH

Do you consider making a decision to be a "work"?

-BH

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Brian, do you believe that God, before the foundation of the world, for His own glory did elect a great mul***ude of men and women to eternal life as an act of free and sovereign grace. This election was in no way dependent upon His foresight of human faith, decision, works or merit.


R.

[BrianH]

Nope.

God's election CANNOT operate apart from his foreknowledge BY DEFINITION, R.

-BH

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[Fig-bearing Thistle]

Originally Posted by BrianH

Nope.

God's election CANNOT operate apart from his foreknowledge BY DEFINITION, R.

-BH

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And so it only follows that God already knows the doers from the hearers only. But we don't. And that is why we are here on this earth. To prove ourselves to ourselves and gain experience. For God already knows our hearts, even better than we know them.

[BrianH]

And so it only follows that God already knows the doers from the hearers only. But we don't. And that is why we are here on this earth. To prove ourselves to ourselves and gain experience. For God already knows our hearts, even better than we know them.

Yes God does know better than we do. But the only experience that will get someone saved is their acceptance by faith of the grace of God in Christ because of the cross. The RESULT of that acceptance as known to God is the indwelling of the Holy Spirit who then motivates and even causes us to do works that please God.

-BH

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[Fig-bearing Thistle]

Originally Posted by BrianH

Yes God does know better than we do. But the only experience that will get someone saved is their acceptance by faith of the grace of God in Christ because of the cross. The RESULT of that acceptance as known to God is the indwelling of the Holy Spirit who then motivates and even causes us to do works that please God.

-BH

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So, if a Christian person disobeys the commandments, does that please God? What must a Christian person who has disobeyed the commandments do to once again please God?

[BrianH]

Please note the fact that I am providing straight, unequicocal answers to each question.

So, if a Christian person disobeys the commandments, does that please God?

Obviously not. Yet all Christians commit sins.

What must a Christian person who has disobeyed the commandments do to once again please God?

Repent. Seek God for forgivness. Allow the Holy Spirit to lead one away from sin.

-BH

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[Richard]

Originally Posted by BrianH

Please note the fact that I am providing straight, unequicocal answers to each question.


Obviously not. Yet all Christians commit sins.



Repent. Seek God for forgivness. Allow the Holy Spirit to lead one away from sin.

-BH

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So then Brian, you admit repentance is a ongoing and often necessary process. But not necessary for salvation, since once you have proclaimed your faith, sin would not in any way negate your elect status.

Just asking?

R.

[John T]

Originally Posted by richard

so then brian, you admit repentance is a ongoing and often necessary process. But not necessary for salvation, since once you have proclaimed your faith, sin would not in any way negate your elect status.

Just asking? R.

absolutely! n/t

[BrianH]

Where did you get the idea that I said or meant that repentance is not necessary for salvation? Show me the words I wrote that gave you that idea.

-BH

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[Richard]

Originally Posted by BrianH

Where did you get the idea that I said or meant that repentance is not necessary for salvation? Show me the words I wrote that gave you that idea.

-BH

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Is not repentance a act of works? Faith, Repentance, Baptism, and Gift of the Holy Ghost. Repentance is works, and Baptism a Ordinance that take a act of works.

Acts 2:37-38

37 Now when they heard this, they were cut to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, “Men and brethren, what shall we do?”
38 Then Peter said to them, “Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Brian what say you? "Baptism is a work, so you say your not saved by works? Certainly baptism is a thing done, and as such is a "work"...

Compare the restored Gospel as God has revealed it to Joseph Smith.

D&C 20: 37
37 And again, by way of commandment to the church concerning the manner of baptism—All those who humble themselves before God, and desire to be baptized, and come forth with broken hearts and contrite spirits, and witness before the church that they have truly repented of all their sins, and are willing to take upon them the name of Jesus Christ, having a determination to serve him to the end, and truly manifest by their works that they have received of the Spirit of Christ unto the remission of their sins, shall be received by baptism into his church.


So Brian, it's pretty clear, “Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins",

1). Repentance is essential
2). Baptism is required for the remission of sins.
3). Spiritual credit granted for good works. Or is it a work of faith, by
which one receives salvation?
4). Is it the man or woman who submits to being immersed?
Or is it God who forgives and regenerates through the blood of
Jesus and working of the Holy Spirit?

It seems to me one must do the work, or doing something willingly that bring one to repent with a broken heart, and contrite spirit, willingly one witnesses before the Church and God, they have repented of their sins, and take upon the name of Christ, to obey and serve to the end, and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Faith, Repentance, Baptism, and Gift of the Holy Ghost. Biblical Scripture Brian.





Interesting indeed.
Richard.

[BrianH]

Is not repentance a act of works?

Nope. How is NOT doing something an "act of work"?

Brian what say you? "Baptism is a work, so you say your not saved by works? Certainly baptism is a thing done, and as such is a "work"...

Baptism is an outward sign of an inward faith. It is the faith that saves, Richard, not the dunking in water. People go swimming every day and are not saved from their sins by it.

Compare the restored Gospel as God has revealed it to Joseph Smith.

D&C 20: 37
37 And again, by way of commandment to the...<snip>

Wait, wait wait ...first of all why should anyone care what Joseph Smith said? Secondly, what makes you think that your gospel is a "restoration" of anything? Can you show me ANY evidence that the apostolic church which you claim to have "restored" ever taught any of the distinguishing doctrines or performed any of the unique secret rituals of the LDS church? If you can, then we can talk about this restoration (preferably in another thread where you will not be chaning the subject). If you cannot, then your claim to a "restoration" is observably FALSE.

How about it?

-BH

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[BigJulie]

Originally Posted by BrianH

Nope. How is NOT doing something an "act of work"?



Baptism is an outward sign of an inward faith. It is the faith that saves, Richard, not the dunking in water. People go swimming every day and are not saved from their sins by it.



Wait, wait wait ...first of all why should anyone care what Joseph Smith said? Secondly, what makes you think that your gospel is a "restoration" of anything? Can you show me ANY evidence that the apostolic church which you claim to have "restored" ever taught any of the distinguishing doctrines or performed any of the unique secret rituals of the LDS church? If you can, then we can talk about this restoration (preferably in another thread where you will not be chaning the subject). If you cannot, then your claim to a "restoration" is observably FALSE.

How about it?

-BH

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Brian, you are right...it is not the dunking in water that saves someone, rather baptism is an outward sign of an inward change and indicates a submission (literally) to the will of God. I am going to ***ume that you believe that submitting to God is required for salvation. So, in your experience, does submitting to God or repenting or changing your ways require no effort on your part---you said repentance is not work as it requires you to do nothing. Is that what you have found in your life---do you do nothing and therefore, you have repented?

[BrianH]

Brian, you are right...it is not the dunking in water that saves someone, rather baptism is an outward sign of an inward change and indicates a submission (literally) to the will of God.

I am glad to see you departing from normative LDS doctirne. Keep going. Your freedom in Christ is just on the horizon.

I am going to ***ume that you believe that submitting to God is required for salvation. So, in your experience, does submitting to God or repenting or changing your ways require no effort on your part---you said repentance is not work as it requires you to do nothing. Is that what you have found in your life---do you do nothing and therefore, you have repented?

It requires the effort that only God can empower. I can make the decision; it is God who empowers me to follow through.

thank you

-BH

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[BigJulie]

Originally Posted by BrianH

I am glad to see you departing from normative LDS doctirne. Keep going. Your freedom in Christ is just on the horizon.



It requires the effort that only God can empower. I can make the decision; it is God who empowers me to follow through.

thank you

-BH

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Empowers YOU to follow through---this implies you are doing something. So, for the person who is baptized---is it because God picks up their body and puts them in the water? Or do they follow through with baptism because they believe in God and therefore act?