Is your Salvation Arbitrary or Works-Based?

[maklelan]

Salvation is either arbitrary or based on human works. Since God has done his part and offers salvation to all, those are the only two perspectives that can possibly be held. Any action that is required on the part of humanity at all renders your salvation works-based. This means if you believe someone has to accept Christ, believe the right things, not deny salvation, have a willing heart, or anything else, then that actions qualifies the person for salvation, making it works-based. If you believe that nothing any human does can effect salvation then it's utterly arbitrary, and no amount preaching, believing, orthodoxy, righteousness, or anything else can change it. The pros***ute, the murderer, the child, the Evangelical, the Buddhist, and the atheist all have equal odds in the great coin flip in the sky.

Brian believes it's neither, but that's not possible, and he can't explain how it could be, although he is very adept at nakedly ***erting it is. I invite anyone who thinks they can to explain how salvation can be anything other than arbitrary or works-based.

[Fig-bearing Thistle]

Originally Posted by maklelan

Salvation is either arbitrary or based on human works. Since God has done his part and offers salvation to all, those are the only two perspectives that can possibly be held. Any action that is required on the part of humanity at all renders your salvation works-based. This means if you believe someone has to accept Christ, believe the right things, not deny salvation, have a willing heart, or anything else, then that actions qualifies the person for salvation, making it works-based. If you believe that nothing any human does can effect salvation then it's utterly arbitrary, and no amount preaching, believing, orthodoxy, righteousness, or anything else can change it. The pros***ute, the murderer, the child, the Evangelical, the Buddhist, and the atheist all have equal odds in the great coin flip in the sky.

Brian believes it's neither, but that's not possible, and he can't explain how it could be, although he is very adept at nakedly ***erting it is. I invite anyone who thinks they can to explain how salvation can be anything other than arbitrary or works-based.

A person must be an active participant in his/her own salvation. Salvation is a joint / cooperative work. Spiritual lip-serving couch potatoes don't make it.

[BrianH]

Do you consider making a decision to be a "work"?

-BH

.

[Fig-bearing Thistle]

Originally Posted by BrianH

Do you consider making a decision to be a "work"?

-BH
.

Making it? Not really, though it is still something God cannot do for you.

Following through on a decision? Yes. I consider that work.

Do you consider lip-service Christianity sufficient and sincere?

[John T]

Originally Posted by maklelan

Salvation is either arbitrary or based on human works. Since God has done his part and offers salvation to all, those are the only two perspectives that can possibly be held. Any action that is required on the part of humanity at all renders your salvation works-based. This means if you believe someone has to accept Christ, believe the right things, not deny salvation, have a willing heart, or anything else, then that actions qualifies the person for salvation, making it works-based. If you believe that nothing any human does can effect salvation then it's utterly arbitrary, and no amount preaching, believing, orthodoxy, righteousness, or anything else can change it. The pros***ute, the murderer, the child, the Evangelical, the Buddhist, and the atheist all have equal odds in the great coin flip in the sky.

Brian believes it's neither, but that's not possible, and he can't explain how it could be, although he is very adept at nakedly ***erting it is. I invite anyone who thinks they can to explain how salvation can be anything other than arbitrary or works-based.

Whenever someone posits only two choices to choose from, and there is another, or more choices available, that is faulty logic. Since it offers only two choices, both of which are in error, it is a false choice error.
The false choice that the OP gives is this: Salvation is either arbitrary or based on human works.

That is because salvation is neither arbitrary, nor of human works, but the truth of the matter it is by God's sovereign will, which is not capricious in any way.

Ephesians 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will.

Notice verse 3 says that all believers have a SPIRITUAL blessing, and it is IN heaven, and IN Jesus Christ by God the Father

Notice in verse 4 tells us that we are "chosen in him [Jesus] BEFORE the foundation of the earth". By definition the word "chosen" rules out anything arbitrary, as the OP suggests, and the phrase "before the foundation of the earth" rules out any human work. That is why the OP is a false choice dilemma.

Notice also that the telos, or purpose of this being chosen before the Earth began is so that believers can be "holy and blameless IN LOVE.The fact that the believers are chosen in love is because they will NOT be chosen from works, and thus salvation be a wage earned for work accomplished.

Notice in verse 5 that God has predestinated us to be adopted children of Jesus Christ, solely because it made God happy to do so.

Sorry to rain on your parade, Mak, but the OP is so wrong for so many ways. Primarially it is wrong because it is an***hetical to Scripture.

However, accourding to your book, people are saved AFTER doing all that they can do first. So what you are doing is trying to Mormonize Christian theology. Ain't gonna work.

[maklelan]

Originally Posted by BrianH

Do you consider making a decision to be a "work"?

-BH

.

Absolutely. Do you not?

[maklelan]

Originally Posted by John T

Whenever someone posits only two choices to choose from, and there is another, or more choices available, that is faulty logic.

That goes without saying. The problem is showing there are more choices available. Let's see if you're up to it.

Originally Posted by John T

Since it offers only two choices, both of which are in error, it is a false choice error.

Lovely ***ertion, but can you support it?

Originally Posted by John T

The false choice that the OP gives is this: Salvation is either arbitrary or based on human works.

That is because salvation is neither arbitrary, nor of human works, but the truth of the matter it is by God's sovereign will, which is not capricious in any way.

But does that will act, as far as we're concerned, arbitrarily, or because of our works?

Originally Posted by John T

Ephesians 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will.

Notice verse 3 says that all believers have a SPIRITUAL blessing, and it is IN heaven, and IN Jesus Christ by God the Father

Doesn't answer the question.

Originally Posted by John T

Notice in verse 4 tells us that we are "chosen in him [Jesus] BEFORE the foundation of the earth". By definition the word "chosen" rules out anything arbitrary, as the OP suggests,

Actually it does no such thing. Choices are often arbitrary.

Originally Posted by John T

and the phrase "before the foundation of the earth" rules out any human work. That is why the OP is a false choice dilemma.

I'm afraid it doesn't. You've merely ***erted that the word "chosen" precludes something arbitrary, which it absolutely doesn't.

Originally Posted by John T

Notice also that the telos, or purpose of this being chosen before the Earth began is so that believers can be "holy and blameless IN LOVE.The fact that the believers are chosen in love is because they will NOT be chosen from works, and thus salvation be a wage earned for work accomplished.

Notice in verse 5 that God has predestinated us to be adopted children of Jesus Christ, solely because it made God happy to do so.

Sorry to rain on your parade, Mak, but the OP is so wrong for so many ways. Primarially it is wrong because it is an***hetical to Scripture.

However, accourding to your book, people are saved AFTER doing all that they can do first. So what you are doing is trying to Mormonize Christian theology. Ain't gonna work.

So without realizing it, you recognize that salvation is arbitrary. You don't want to admit it, so you nakedly ***ert being chosen arbitrarily really isn't arbitrary. We're all ***igned a lot that has nothing to do with what we believe or how we live, which means nothing anyone is saying here or anywhere else in the universe makes a bit of difference to our salvation. That's totally unbiblical. Humans have their own will.

[theway]

Originally Posted by John T

The false choice that the OP gives is this: Salvation is either arbitrary or based on human works.

That is because salvation is neither arbitrary, nor of human works, but the truth of the matter it is by God's sovereign will, which is not capricious in any

No! that merely begs the question, because if it is God’s sovereign will for all to be saved, Then why is it, everybody is not saved?
II Peter 3:9
The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

[nrajeff]

By the way, I think it might be important to agree on what "work" was understood to mean in biblical times. In ancient Israel, the term did not include a thought or belief or a decision that a person arrived at. "Works of The Law" referred to actions, specifically the actions that were mentioned in Mosaic Law. It was those legalistic rules that the N.T. refers to as being unable to save, or leading to "death."

So the decision to believe in and have faith in Jesus as one's savior is not a work in the biblical definition. Neither is acting on one's faith--obeying Jesus' teachings on loving one another, for example. It wouldn't be called a work by the biblical definition. It could be called a good deed, which is something that Christians are commanded to do, and are among the conditions for salvation. They are among the things that Jesus said are required for a person to "be perfect" in their obeying the commandments.

[Richard]

Originally Posted by BrianH

Do you consider making a decision to be a "work"?

-BH

.

Brian, do you believe that God, before the foundation of the world, for His own glory did elect a great mul***ude of men and women to eternal life as an act of free and sovereign grace. This election was in no way dependent upon His foresight of human faith, decision, works or merit.


R.

[John T]

Originally Posted by maklelan

That goes without saying. The problem is showing there are more choices available. Let's see if you're up to it

. [rude condescension noted]

Lovely ***ertion, but can you support it?

The Bible need support???

But does that will act, as far as we're concerned, arbitrarily, or because of our works?

Right, God is capricious

Doesn't answer the question.

BINGO!!! Scripture of the Bible is insufficient for mak

Actually it does no such thing. Choices are often arbitrary.

Actually he is saying that God is arbitrary because He made a choice before the foundation of the earth, as Scripture says.

I'm afraid it doesn't. You've merely ***erted that the word "chosen" precludes something arbitrary, which it absolutely doesn't.

Now we are back to his stating that God is arbitrary.

So without realizing it, you recognize that salvation is arbitrary. You don't want to admit it, so you nakedly ***ert being chosen arbitrarily really isn't arbitrary. We're all ***igned a lot that has nothing to do with what we believe or how we live, which means nothing anyone is saying here or anywhere else in the universe makes a bit of difference to our salvation. That's totally unbiblical. Humans have their own will.

What an unbiblical view of God you have! I cite Scripture saying that God does this, and you find it insufficient.

Your "refutations" are merely your own biased viewpoints,founded upon spurious logic, having nothing to do with the evidence presented. Instead of presenting Scriptures that would bolster your ***ertions (there are none, BTW) you elevate your thinking over the mind and will of a just sovereign and totally righteous God in order to speciously charge Him with being arbitrary because you do not like the fact that He made an omnipotent choice before the Earth was formed.

That takes chutzpah, and you have an abundance of it.

(((((The Bible isn't Biblical enough?))))) Gimme a break.

[Richard]

Originally Posted by John T

Whenever someone posits only two choices to choose from, and there is another, or more choices available, that is faulty logic. Since it offers only two choices, both of which are in error, it is a false choice error.
The false choice that the OP gives is this: Salvation is either arbitrary or based on human works.

That is because salvation is neither arbitrary, nor of human works, but the truth of the matter it is by God's sovereign will, which is not capricious in any way.

Ephesians 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will.

Notice verse 3 says that all believers have a SPIRITUAL blessing, and it is IN heaven, and IN Jesus Christ by God the Father

Paul recognized that persons could "fall from grace" if they rejected Christ by conduct inconsistent with the law of love—conduct injurious to the covenant relationship—such as murder, fornication, or sodomy ( Galatians 5:5—6, 19—21).

5 For we through the Spirit eagerly wait for the hope of righteousness by faith.
6 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision avails anything, but faith working through love.

19 Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness,
20 Idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies,
21 Envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

Notice also that the telos, or purpose of this being chosen before the Earth began is so that believers can be "holy and blameless IN LOVE.The fact that the believers are chosen in love is because they will NOT be chosen from works, and thus salvation be a wage earned for work accomplished.

Notice in verse 5 that God has predestinated us to be adopted children of Jesus Christ, solely because it made God happy to do so.

According to you John and verse 5, persons can accept the saving Grace only because God has predestined them to Salvation. So those who do not accept God's efficacious grace, or grace that accomplishes their salvation, fail to do so because God has decided in his arbitrary election to leave them to ****ation. So in essence, ****ation has also been arbitrarily predestined. Am I correct in stating this as Creedal Evangelism John?

John states, "Sorry to rain on your parade, Mak, but the OP is so wrong for so many ways. Primarially it is wrong because it is an***hetical to Scripture."

This concept of prevenient grace makes God an arbitrary and evil tyrant. He could save all persons, but he has decided not to. This is not the God of love taught by Jesus. This view of grace makes God unjust, unfair, unloving, and loathsome. If God can save everyone, and he desires to save everyone out of love, then why has he decided to leave some persons to ****ation? It just won't do to observe that we all deserve to be ****ed, so we should be grateful that God has decided to save some of us? As for me John, I cannot worship such a God, my Father in Heaven has given us all the gift of Free Will, no one excluded or predestinated to be arbitrarily chosen.
The Elect are not Chosen by God, but the Elect choose God.



R.

[John T]

Most excellent, Dude! Instead of using specious logic, you go to the effort of citing Scripture to refute my ***ertions

Originally Posted by Richard

Paul recognized that persons could "fall from grace" if they rejected Christ by conduct inconsistent with the law of love—conduct injurious to the covenant relationship—such as murder, fornication, or sodomy ( Galatians 5:5—6, 19—21).

5 For we through the Spirit eagerly wait for the hope of righteousness by faith.
6 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision avails anything, but faith working through love.

19 Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness,
20 Idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies,
21 Envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

Before we jump to conclusions, let's look at the CONTEXT of Galatians to discover what Paul was talking about.

Galatians 1:6 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:
7 Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.
8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.

Notice two things in verse 6: the Gospel of Jesus is called "the Gospel of grace" and anything other than the "gospel of grace" is called ANOTHER (totally different) gospel.

Verses 7 & 8 calls that other gospel, a "perversion" and Paul actually says that anyone proclaiming anything other than what taught is ****ed. That also includes "an angel from heaven" teaching anything different than what Jesus taught. (As I read that, my mind goes to the statue of Moroni on top of Cumorrah, and I do not believe that that is in Scripture by accident)

Therefore, Paul is talking about a heresy being taught in Galatia.

9 As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.
10 For do I now persuade men, or God? or do I seek to please men? for if I yet pleased men, I should not be the servant of Christ.
11 But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man.
12 For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.

Here is a repe***ion of the other verses above.

According to you John and verse 5, persons can accept the saving Grace only because God has predestined them to Salvation. So those who do not accept God's efficacious grace, or grace that accomplishes their salvation, fail to do so because God has decided in his arbitrary election to leave them to ****ation. So in essence, ****ation has also been arbitrarily predestined. Am I correct in stating this as Creedal Evangelism John?

I am unfamiliar with your term, so I will not comment. What is important is NOT what I say, rather what the Bible says. So if you do not like what verse 5 says, I suggest that you pray to God, asking him to make it clear. He did not stutter when he wrote it. I am NOT being snarky when I write that, but ask Him to reveal the truth of that verse, and I am sure He will.


[quote]This concept of prevenient grace makes God an arbitrary and evil tyrant. He could save all persons, but he has decided not to. This is not the God of love taught by Jesus. This view of grace makes God unjust, unfair, unloving, and loathsome. If God can save everyone, and he desires to save everyone out of love, then why has he decided to leave some persons to ****ation?

It just won't do to observe that we all deserve to be ****ed, so we should be grateful that God has decided to save some of us? As for me John, I cannot worship such a God, my Father in Heaven has given us all the gift of Free Will, no one excluded or predestinated to be arbitrarily chosen.[/QUOTE]
The topic of prevenient (enabling) grace is not the issue here.

Why are you calling God an "evil tyrant"? He does what He does because he is God, and He is right. You are elevating mere human reason over the all the attributes of God.

Are you saying in this sentence that there is something inherently good in humanity that would be pleasing to God? It just won't do to observe that we all deserve to be ****ed If that is true, it does not square with Scripture in many places. "For ALL have sinned and come short of the glory of God" Romans 3:23 is an example.

You are arguing against Scripture, and that is futile. If you do not like what he wrote, ask God to clarify that, and I am sure that he will

The Elect are not Chosen by God, but the Elect choose God.

That sounds nice, but it does not conform to Scripture

[BrianH]

Making it? Not really, though it is still something God cannot do for you.

I agree.

Following through on a decision? Yes. I consider that work.

So then your salvation is based on nothing BUT your own work. And since you have established that your salvation is based on your work and since God's standard is perfection, therefore sicne your work is not perfect, you are not saved.

Do you consider lip-service Christianity sufficient and sincere?

Nope.

Guess who the Bible says does the work IN us (Christians), Fig.

-BH

.

[BrianH]

Nope.
-BH

(NT)

[BrianH]

Nope.

God's election CANNOT operate apart from his foreknowledge BY DEFINITION, R.

-BH

.

[Fig-bearing Thistle]

Originally Posted by BrianH

Nope.

God's election CANNOT operate apart from his foreknowledge BY DEFINITION, R.

-BH

.

And so it only follows that God already knows the doers from the hearers only. But we don't. And that is why we are here on this earth. To prove ourselves to ourselves and gain experience. For God already knows our hearts, even better than we know them.

[Fig-bearing Thistle]

Originally Posted by BrianH

I agree.




So then your salvation is based on nothing BUT your own work.

Where did the "nothing BUT" come from? Your words undoubtedly. You set up a false dichotomy here.

God cannot save us w/o our work (participation and adherence to His condiditons), and we cannot be saved w/o His.

[BrianH]

And so it only follows that God already knows the doers from the hearers only. But we don't. And that is why we are here on this earth. To prove ourselves to ourselves and gain experience. For God already knows our hearts, even better than we know them.

Yes God does know better than we do. But the only experience that will get someone saved is their acceptance by faith of the grace of God in Christ because of the cross. The RESULT of that acceptance as known to God is the indwelling of the Holy Spirit who then motivates and even causes us to do works that please God.

-BH

.

[Fig-bearing Thistle]

Originally Posted by BrianH

Yes God does know better than we do. But the only experience that will get someone saved is their acceptance by faith of the grace of God in Christ because of the cross. The RESULT of that acceptance as known to God is the indwelling of the Holy Spirit who then motivates and even causes us to do works that please God.

-BH

.

So, if a Christian person disobeys the commandments, does that please God? What must a Christian person who has disobeyed the commandments do to once again please God?

[BrianH]

Please note the fact that I am providing straight, unequicocal answers to each question.

So, if a Christian person disobeys the commandments, does that please God?

Obviously not. Yet all Christians commit sins.

What must a Christian person who has disobeyed the commandments do to once again please God?

Repent. Seek God for forgivness. Allow the Holy Spirit to lead one away from sin.

-BH

.

[Richard]

Originally Posted by BrianH

Please note the fact that I am providing straight, unequicocal answers to each question.


Obviously not. Yet all Christians commit sins.



Repent. Seek God for forgivness. Allow the Holy Spirit to lead one away from sin.

-BH

.

So then Brian, you admit repentance is a ongoing and often necessary process. But not necessary for salvation, since once you have proclaimed your faith, sin would not in any way negate your elect status.

Just asking?

R.

[John T]

Originally Posted by richard

so then brian, you admit repentance is a ongoing and often necessary process. But not necessary for salvation, since once you have proclaimed your faith, sin would not in any way negate your elect status.

Just asking? R.

absolutely! n/t

[BrianH]

Where did you get the idea that I said or meant that repentance is not necessary for salvation? Show me the words I wrote that gave you that idea.

-BH

.

[BrianH]

Where did the "nothing BUT" come from? Your words undoubtedly. You set up a false dichotomy here.

Well ...it is an inference. If YOU consider a decision to be a work, then everything you decide is a work, right? What do you ever DO without deciding to do it? And BTW, that is no dichotomy at all, let alone a false dichotomy. (I HIGHLY recommend that you learn the meaning of terms BEFORE you try to use them in public.)

God cannot save us w/o our work (participation and adherence to His condiditons), and we cannot be saved w/o His.

So then according to you, God is limited in his salvific actions to what YOU can help him with. Your God needs YOUR help to save you. Christ's atonement was insufficient for YOU, right?

I note with interest that you are trying to be very careful in your choice of words. While I think it is obvious that people must choose to receive God's grace and thus "participate" in some sense. But what is "adherence to his conditions"? What are those "conditions"? Are they, works that earn your salvation perhaps? After all, according to you God CANNOT save without that adherence.

-BH

.