Is your Salvation Arbitrary or Works-Based?

[Fig-bearing Thistle]

Originally Posted by BrianH

Well ...it is an inference. If YOU consider a decision to be a work, then everything you decide is a work, right? What do you ever DO without deciding to do it? And BTW, that is no dichotomy at all, let alone a false dichotomy. (I HIGHLY recommend that you learn the meaning of terms BEFORE you try to use them in public.)

Well your inference was wrong. I could infer that you believe salvation is nothing but arbitrary. Would that be correct in your mind?

Originally Posted by BrianH

So then according to you, God is limited in his salvific actions to what YOU can help him with. Your God needs YOUR help to save you. Christ's atonement was insufficient for YOU, right?

God does not super-impose his will to force a person to heaven or hell. The choice is ours, and God provides a way according to our choice.

Originally Posted by BrianH

I note with interest that you are trying to be very careful in your choice of words. While I think it is obvious that people must choose to receive God's grace and thus "participate" in some sense. But what is "adherence to his conditions"? What are those "conditions"? Are they, works that earn your salvation perhaps? After all, according to you God CANNOT save without that adherence.

-BH

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Yes, God will not force a man into heaven.

[BrianH]

Well your inference was wrong. I could infer that you believe salvation is nothing but arbitrary. Would that be correct in your mind?

But precisely HOW is my inference wrong? If YOU consider a decision to be a work, then everything you decide is a work, right? Are you perhaps trying to say that SOME decisions are a work and others are NOT?

God does not super-impose his will to force a person to heaven or hell. The choice is ours, and God provides a way according to our choice.

I have no problem with that. But it does not address the issue to which you are responding here. According to you, God cannot save us without our work. That means that, according to YOU, God is limited in his salvific actions to what YOU can help him with. Your God needs YOUR help to save you. Christ's atonement was insufficient for YOU, right?

Yes, God will not force a man into heaven.

Oh ...kaayyy ...But that does not answer my question. Please read it again and do your best to think about it, then actually ANSWER it, K? Here it is again: But what is "adherence to his conditions"? What are those "conditions"? Are they works that earn your salvation perhaps? After all, according to you God CANNOT save without that adherence

thank you

-BH

.

[Bat-Man]

Originally Posted by maklelan

Salvation is either arbitrary or based on human works.

... OR on God's work as we allow God to work with us, which I refer to as God's work rather than "human works" because God is working in us.

Since God has done his part and offers salvation to all, those are the only two perspectives that can possibly be held.

Did you consider my perspective when you were referring to "human works" ?

Any action that is required on the part of humanity at all renders your salvation works-based.

Yes, but who is doing the work ?

Us, only, or God, only, or a combination such as God working in us ?

[John T]

Originally Posted by Fig-bearing Thistle

And so it only follows that God already knows the doers from the hearers only. But we don't. And that is why we are here on this earth. To prove ourselves to ourselves and gain experience. For God already knows our hearts, even better than we know them.

Fig

There are ABUNDANT proofs of what Brian said in the Bible; either of us can produce the texts proving that.

However, there are ZERO verses in Scripture to support your position.

[maklelan]

Originally Posted by Bat-Man

... OR on God's work as we allow God to work with us, which I refer to as God's work rather than "human works" because God is working in us.

And allowing him to do so is something that is dependent upon us, making it a result of our work.

Originally Posted by Bat-Man

Did you consider my perspective when you were referring to "human works" ?

Yes, but who is doing the work ?

Us, only, or God, only, or a combination such as God working in us ?

It's obviously a combination, with God providing the vast majority, but if anything is required from us, and if God freely gives to all, our individual salvation comes down to our own works.

[Richard]

Originally Posted by BrianH

Where did you get the idea that I said or meant that repentance is not necessary for salvation? Show me the words I wrote that gave you that idea.

-BH

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Is not repentance a act of works? Faith, Repentance, Baptism, and Gift of the Holy Ghost. Repentance is works, and Baptism a Ordinance that take a act of works.

Acts 2:37-38

37 Now when they heard this, they were cut to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, “Men and brethren, what shall we do?”
38 Then Peter said to them, “Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Brian what say you? "Baptism is a work, so you say your not saved by works? Certainly baptism is a thing done, and as such is a "work"...

Compare the restored Gospel as God has revealed it to Joseph Smith.

D&C 20: 37
37 And again, by way of commandment to the church concerning the manner of baptism—All those who humble themselves before God, and desire to be baptized, and come forth with broken hearts and contrite spirits, and witness before the church that they have truly repented of all their sins, and are willing to take upon them the name of Jesus Christ, having a determination to serve him to the end, and truly manifest by their works that they have received of the Spirit of Christ unto the remission of their sins, shall be received by baptism into his church.


So Brian, it's pretty clear, “Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins",

1). Repentance is essential
2). Baptism is required for the remission of sins.
3). Spiritual credit granted for good works. Or is it a work of faith, by
which one receives salvation?
4). Is it the man or woman who submits to being immersed?
Or is it God who forgives and regenerates through the blood of
Jesus and working of the Holy Spirit?

It seems to me one must do the work, or doing something willingly that bring one to repent with a broken heart, and contrite spirit, willingly one witnesses before the Church and God, they have repented of their sins, and take upon the name of Christ, to obey and serve to the end, and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Faith, Repentance, Baptism, and Gift of the Holy Ghost. Biblical Scripture Brian.





Interesting indeed.
Richard.

[Richard]

Originally Posted by maklelan

And allowing him to do so is something that is dependent upon us, making it a result of our work.



It's obviously a combination, with God providing the vast majority, but if anything is required from us, and if God freely gives to all, our individual salvation comes down to our own works.

"and are willing to take upon them the name of Jesus Christ, having a determination to serve him to the end, and truly manifest by their works that they have received of the Spirit of Christ unto the remission of their sins, shall be received by baptism into his church." D&C

[Bat-Man]

Originally Posted by maklelan

And allowing him to do so is something that is dependent upon us, making it a result of our work.

If by "our" work you are referring to the work we do with God in us... I agree.

Our works are God's work when God is working in us.

It's obviously a combination, with God providing the vast majority, but if anything is required from us, and if God freely gives to all, our individual salvation comes down to our own works.

I think it comes down to who you are thinking of when you say "our" works.

If you're referring to the works we do without God, then nothing we can do will save us, but if you're referring to the works we do with God, then you're talking about a whole other thing there.

With God we are God... because God is working within us.

[BrianH]

Is not repentance a act of works?

Nope. How is NOT doing something an "act of work"?

Brian what say you? "Baptism is a work, so you say your not saved by works? Certainly baptism is a thing done, and as such is a "work"...

Baptism is an outward sign of an inward faith. It is the faith that saves, Richard, not the dunking in water. People go swimming every day and are not saved from their sins by it.

Compare the restored Gospel as God has revealed it to Joseph Smith.

D&C 20: 37
37 And again, by way of commandment to the...<snip>

Wait, wait wait ...first of all why should anyone care what Joseph Smith said? Secondly, what makes you think that your gospel is a "restoration" of anything? Can you show me ANY evidence that the apostolic church which you claim to have "restored" ever taught any of the distinguishing doctrines or performed any of the unique secret rituals of the LDS church? If you can, then we can talk about this restoration (preferably in another thread where you will not be chaning the subject). If you cannot, then your claim to a "restoration" is observably FALSE.

How about it?

-BH

.

[BigJulie]

Originally Posted by maklelan

And allowing him to do so is something that is dependent upon us, making it a result of our work.



It's obviously a combination, with God providing the vast majority, but if anything is required from us, and if God freely gives to all, our individual salvation comes down to our own works.

Interesting point---the idea that God works to save ALL men, therefore, if men are not saved, it is not because of the lack of God's work,but the lack of ours.

[BigJulie]

Originally Posted by BrianH

Nope. How is NOT doing something an "act of work"?



Baptism is an outward sign of an inward faith. It is the faith that saves, Richard, not the dunking in water. People go swimming every day and are not saved from their sins by it.



Wait, wait wait ...first of all why should anyone care what Joseph Smith said? Secondly, what makes you think that your gospel is a "restoration" of anything? Can you show me ANY evidence that the apostolic church which you claim to have "restored" ever taught any of the distinguishing doctrines or performed any of the unique secret rituals of the LDS church? If you can, then we can talk about this restoration (preferably in another thread where you will not be chaning the subject). If you cannot, then your claim to a "restoration" is observably FALSE.

How about it?

-BH

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Brian, you are right...it is not the dunking in water that saves someone, rather baptism is an outward sign of an inward change and indicates a submission (literally) to the will of God. I am going to ***ume that you believe that submitting to God is required for salvation. So, in your experience, does submitting to God or repenting or changing your ways require no effort on your part---you said repentance is not work as it requires you to do nothing. Is that what you have found in your life---do you do nothing and therefore, you have repented?

[Bat-Man]

Originally Posted by BrianH

Nope. How is NOT doing something an "act of work"?

Repentance is about more than NOT doing something.

Repentance involves turning from what is evil, or Satan, AND turning toward what is good, or God.

If you only stop doing what is evil, you haven't done all you can do.

[BrianH]

Repentance is about more than NOT doing something.

Repentance involves turning from what is evil, or Satan, AND turning toward what is good, or God.

If you only stop doing what is evil, you haven't done all you can do.

You are just equivocating.

Obviously repentence is the cessation of deliberate sinning. It is at best (for your point of view) a NEGATIVE act. The POSITIVE act (an actual work) that we are called to actually perform is to simply BELIEVE. That is why the scripture says "repent AND believe" (Mark 1:15 for example). Otherwise it would only have needed to say "repent".

-BH

.

[BrianH]

Brian, you are right...it is not the dunking in water that saves someone, rather baptism is an outward sign of an inward change and indicates a submission (literally) to the will of God.

I am glad to see you departing from normative LDS doctirne. Keep going. Your freedom in Christ is just on the horizon.

I am going to ***ume that you believe that submitting to God is required for salvation. So, in your experience, does submitting to God or repenting or changing your ways require no effort on your part---you said repentance is not work as it requires you to do nothing. Is that what you have found in your life---do you do nothing and therefore, you have repented?

It requires the effort that only God can empower. I can make the decision; it is God who empowers me to follow through.

thank you

-BH

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[BigJulie]

Originally Posted by BrianH

I am glad to see you departing from normative LDS doctirne. Keep going. Your freedom in Christ is just on the horizon.



It requires the effort that only God can empower. I can make the decision; it is God who empowers me to follow through.

thank you

-BH

.

Empowers YOU to follow through---this implies you are doing something. So, for the person who is baptized---is it because God picks up their body and puts them in the water? Or do they follow through with baptism because they believe in God and therefore act?

[BrianH]

Empowers YOU to follow through---this implies you are doing something.

Yes ...I am BELIEVEING him.

I believe in salvation by "works". Just read what Jesus said when someone asked him what works they must do (John 6:28-29)

So, for the person who is baptized---is it because God picks up their body and puts them in the water? Or do they follow through with baptism because they believe in God and therefore act?

Salvation for a person being baptized is ALREADY a done deal, BigJ. It is the FAITH that saves (Eph 2:8-9). As you have already made clear: Just getting dunked in the water does not save anyone. Baptism is the outward working of that which God has already worked IN us.

thank you

-BH

.

[BigJulie]

Originally Posted by BrianH

Yes ...I am BELIEVEING him.

I believe in salvation by "works". Just read what Jesus said when someone asked him what works they must do (John 6:28-29)



Salvation for a person being baptized is ALREADY a done deal, BigJ. It is the FAITH that saves (Eph 2:8-9). As you have already made clear: Just getting dunked in the water does not save anyone. Baptism is the outward working of that which God has already worked IN us.

thank you

-BH

.

So, if I have you right....those who believe in God will act outwardly because of an inward conversion. I agree with this. Therefore our works do not save us, but our faith does and our faith is seen by our works. Therefore, we can know our faith by what we do. If one claims to have faith and then denies it in action, they are a liar. In otherwords, the person who claims they believe but then refuses baptism is a liar.

[Bat-Man]

Originally Posted by BrianH

Obviously repentence is the cessation of deliberate sinning.

Repentance refers to turning toward God, not just stopping somewhere along the path that leads to Satan.

A person is either going toward Satan, or is going toward God.

If you're walking toward Satan and stop walking, without turning toward God, you're still facing Satan until you turn around and start walking toward God from where you were.

[BrianH]

Repentance refers to turning toward God, not just stopping somewhere along the path that leads to Satan.

Repentance is turning FROM sin. BELIEF is turning to God.

"Repent AND believe", BM. Not just "repent".

-BH

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[Bat-Man]

Originally Posted by BrianH

Repentance is turning FROM sin. BELIEF is turning to God.

"Repent AND believe", BM. Not just "repent".

-BH

.

When you repent and believe you are turning from Satan and turning toward God and it is then up to you to believe what God tells you when you are turned towards Him.

I recommend that you follow-through with the whole process.

[Richard]

Originally Posted by BrianH

Repentance is turning FROM sin. BELIEF is turning to God.

"Repent AND believe", BM. Not just "repent".

-BH

.

Sorry Brian, but you're in denial of what Faith, Repentance and Baptism represent as a Ordinance to be done. “Men and brethren, what shall we do?” Peter is being asked what is to be done, he replies, "Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ", why be Baptized? "for the remission of sins". One must commit to a action or work, (Baptized), in order to be forgiven. Why does one need to be forgiven? In order to receive the gift. What Gift? The Holy Ghost. Why is this necessary? To be saved in the Kingdom of God. What is the Kingdom of God? His kingdom or Church here on earth, and then receive all the ordinances that will elevate you to Eternal Life, life with God.

Your lesson for the day good buddy.

R.

[BrianH]

Sorry Brian, but you're in denial of what Faith, Repentance and Baptism represent as a Ordinance to be done

Yes you are indeed sorry.

The scripture says "repent AND believe". The Greek language here is emphatic.

"repent" (μετανοέω- "metanoeō") means: to change one's mind. It is in the imperative mood, meaning it is a command.

"believe" (πιστεύω "pisteuō") means: to think to be true, to be persuaded of, to credit, place confidence in

These are related but different. They are not the same thing. If they were the text would be needlessly redundant.

One can "repent" without believing. And one can "believe" without repenting. That is why we are exhorted in the Bible to "repent AND believe" ...just like I said.

No amount of hand waving, condescension, subject changing or bickkering will change these simple, self-evident facts.

-BH

.

[BrianH]

In otherwords, the person who claims they believe but then refuses baptism is a liar.

Do you believe?

-BH

.

[John T]

Originally Posted by BigJulie

So, if I have you right....those who believe in God will act outwardly because of an inward conversion. I agree with this.

The part that SEEMS to be missing is that while believers will do good works because it is God working through them to glorify himself; doing good deeds is NOT a manifestation of salvation.

That is because even Charles Manson can fake good deeds while in prison, and say "Look at what I did! See, I am a Christian." Furthermore, Scripture is abundantly clear that salvation is NOT of efforts or works, for that would cause pride, which is an anathema to God.

Therefore our works do not save us (1), but our faith does(2) and our faith is seen by our works.

Phrase 1= Excellent; Phrase 2 = Excellent, Phrase 3= not true.

On other boards, I saw Mormons who wished to quantify faith by making this or that a standard, essentially saying "I have greater faith than her because I do this or that." Remember what Jesus said about the one having faith the size of a mustard seed. It is not the size of your faith that counts, rather, it is the size of the God in whom you entrust your faith that counts. There is an immense difference between the size of the Mormon god, and the God of Christianity.

So the question is this: "Do you place your faith in a god who does not exist, who "once was man, but is now exalted" or the "Only one God, completely holy holy, righteous and just, who shows unmerited grace (favor) to those who trust Him?"

(1)Therefore, we can know our faith by what we do. (2) If one claims to have faith and then denies it in action, they are a liar.

(1) WORKS ARE NOT A THERMOMETER INDICATING ONE'S FAITH.

(2) You have to be clearer what you mean by the phrase "denies it in action". If you mean that any person who sins in some manner is a denier of one's faith, that is not true. Scripture tells us that we all are sinners, after conversion, we still sin, and our sinning will not cease until we are dead, or when Jesus returns. That is why John wrote in 1 John 19ff

9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

Chapter 2

1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
2 And he is the propitiation [Defense Attorney) for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

Another good Scripture to remember is this, from Ephesians 3:20-21

Now to Him who is able to do exceedingly abundantly above all that we ask or think, according to the power that works in us, to Him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus to all generations, forever and ever. Amen

Bob Hoekstra says this about the above p***age:

It begins with the most critical issue for living the Christian life, the ability of God: "Now to Him who is able." Natural religious thinking would set forth the ability of man as the most vital matter in developing a godly life. Such an approach would leave us striving vainly under the law, attempting to live up to God's perfect standards by our own inadequate resources. Praise be to God, there is a heavenly, effective option: relying upon God's ability.


Think of the immeasurable ability of the Lord. "Ah, Lord God! Behold, You have made the heavens and the earth by Your great power and outstretched arm. There is nothing too hard for You" (Jeremiah 32:17). He created the entire universe. Certainly, by His power He is able to strengthen us. "Behold, I am the LORD, the God of all flesh. Is there anything too hard for Me?" (Jeremiah 32:27). Our Lord rules over all of humanity. Surely, He is able to manage our lives. Actually, our God is "able to do exceedingly abundantly above all that we ask or think." Everything we could ask concerning His will, He is able to do far beyond that. Whatever we might contemplate but hesitate to ask, He is able to surp*** that.

That is why salvation is all by grace, and ZERO by works. If it were by works, we would trust unreliable sinners, ourselves to be our own redeemer. Gloriously, however, it is all of, by and through God that salvation comes.

Therefore it is neither the amount of either your faith, nor of your works that count. Instead, it is the size of the God in whom you rest your faith that counts.

In other words, the person who claims they believe but then refuses baptism is a liar.

That is a hypothetical that is extremely dubious possibilities. That is because the believer willingly wants to enter into baptism as an act of obedience, (not conversion). But there are Christianity-hostile places whereby the act of baptism is tantamount to taking a contract out on your life, and the death of a believer, due to a public baptism has life and death ramifications for the immediate family including the spouse and children.

I do not find any warrant in Scripture for such an ***umption.

[Father_JD]

Originally Posted by maklelan

Salvation is either arbitrary or based on human works.

Nope. According to scripture, salvation is BY GRACE THROUGH FAITH.

Faith is NOT "human works".

Btw...salvation is of GOD ALONE.