Is your Salvation Arbitrary or Works-Based?

[True Believer]

Good works just doesn't come after you are a christian.

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by True Believer

What about people who are not christians but still do good works?

good for them....

Its great that people do good works...
Its never going to clean your soul of the stain of even the smallest of sins, but it still is good.

No lost person ever got even a small sin forgiven by doing a 'good work".....

But there are layers of both punishment and rewards....and so even if a person is totally lost and never going to give up their Mormon faith and is going to hell, i would still suggest that it is good for them to produce good works......

Good works are nice.....


Thats the difference between a Christian's good works, (that are blessed) and the works of the lost.

The works of the lost are mute as far as telling us about the one path to salvation.

But the works of a christian are the hand of God in our lives....and are blessed by god.

[True Believer]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

good for them....

Its great that people do good works...
Its never going to clean your soul of the stain of even the smallest of sins, but it still is good.

No lost person ever got even a small sin forgiven by doing a 'good work".....

But there are layers of both punishment and rewards....and so even if a person is totally lost and never going to give up their Mormon faith and is going to hell, i would still suggest that it is good for them to produce good works......

Good works are nice.....


Thats the difference between a Christian's good works, (that are blessed) and the works of the lost.

The works of the lost are mute as far as telling us about the one path to salvation.

But the works of a christian are the hand of God in our lives....and are blessed by god.

Im not saying you are saved by good works. Grace saves you but you need to have faith. To have faith you need to do the requirements God has commanded us to do. One of those requirements is good works. If you don't have good works you don't have complete faith. Another question.... If someone who has never heard about God but does good works and who is a nice person (and if God doesn't bless the good works of those who are not chistrians as you said) does that person go to heaven or hell since he never believed or had faith?

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by True Believer

If someone who has never heard about God but does good works and who is a nice person (and if God doesn't bless the good works of those who are not Christians as you said) does that person go to heaven or hell since he never believed or had faith?

The late Dr. Walter Martin put it this way; "If they go [to hell], it is because they turned away from the 'lesser light' that would have led them to the Greater Light."

works are a moot point as far as earing your salvation goes..
Works dont count like that....
Works dont add up to getting your sins forgiven.


so once again, they asked Jesus straight out what 'works" were needed?
and jesus said that there is only ONE work of God that is needed, and that is to have faith in his Son.

This is just how the thief on the cross was saved and how i was saved, and how we all are saved.
The Thief put his faith in Jesus, and was saved...case-closed.

No church attendance needed?...nope
No going door to door needed?.....nope
No giving money to the church or going to church on this day over that day?...nope

Just faith......You believe in Jesus and you are saved.


'are" saved...not "might be" saved......you ARE SAVED!

[James Banta]

Originally Posted by True Believer

Im not saying you are saved by good works. Grace saves you but you need to have faith. To have faith you need to do the requirements God has commanded us to do. One of those requirements is good works. If you don't have good works you don't have complete faith. Another question.... If someone who has never heard about God but does good works and who is a nice person (and if God doesn't bless the good works of those who are not chistrians as you said) does that person go to heaven or hell since he never believed or had faith?

Stop it, just stop it.. you can't come in here and deny the word of god even if you do believe that Jesus was a liar and the Bible is flawed.. Faith come by hearing the word of God nit through works. You can't show me one p***age of true scripture that teaches faith come in that way while I can show you scripture that bluntly teaches that Faith come by hearing, hearing the word of God.

Romans 10:17
So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

Now admit that you teach nonbiblical teachings or find even one p***age that teaches that faith comes by "do(ing) the requirements God has commanded us to do).. You can keep your man invented doctrines. Here it requires clear Biblical teachings to make a point.. What you want to believe makes no difference at all, only what God has revealed in His word really counts.. So either show some Biblical authority for your teaching or tell us that what you are saying here is ONLY your private doctrines.. IHS jim

[True Believer]

Originally Posted by James Banta

Faith come by hearing the word of God nit through works.

So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.[/B]

I agree partly. Faith comes by hearing the word, else why would I bother with being obedient to Christ. Yet when I show obedience to Christ's gospel I see the fruits of that obedience which in turn causes my faith to grow, as a result of my faith growing my obedience grows, and so on and so on.

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by True Believer

So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.[/B]

I agree partly. Faith comes by hearing the word, else why would I bother with being obedient to Christ. Yet when I show obedience to Christ's gospel I see the fruits of that obedience which in turn causes my faith to grow, as a result of my faith growing my obedience grows, and so on and so on.

Your faith can grow stronger...but you don't get more saved...LOL

You are always as saved as you ever are...

[alanmolstad]

You don't say that because you did more works today that you are more saved today...

[TrueBlue?]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

You don't say that because you did more works today that you are more saved today...

It's not about being more saved today than yesterday. I think what TB is trying to say is that faith grows because of works, and when faith grows then greater works we are able to do.

Joh_14:12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.

I believe that is what TB is alluding to. Correct if me if I am wrong TB.

[alanmolstad]

Works come because of faith...
This is why the Bible warns us over and over not to judge ourselves by our works...

This also is why we must be sa ed by grace though faith...and are NOT saved by grace though works.

Works proceed out of the faith found in your heart...

Thus we are saved that we live to produce good works...

[TrueBlue?]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

Works come because of faith...

My desire to do good works is a result of faith in Christ, but the works do not just flow through me? I am still free to choose to obey. My desire to follow Christ is conflicted with desire to do evil(temptation), I must choose to obey Christ, else my faith does little for me.

This is why the Bible warns us over and over not to judge ourselves by our works...

CFR please.

This also is why we must be sa ed by grace though faith...and are NOT saved by grace though works.

CFR please

[True Believer]

Originally Posted by TrueBlue?

My desire to do good works is a result of faith in Christ, but the works do not just flow through me? I am still free to choose to obey. My desire to follow Christ is conflicted with desire to do evil(temptation), I must choose to obey Christ, else my faith does little for me.

Yes, that is what I have been trying to say to alan. After you have faith works just don't randomly start coming to you. You always have free will to do good works or to not do them. If you don't do them, if that is your choice then you have little faith.

That is exactly what James chapter 2 teaches us. James 2:14 (KJV) What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?


James 2:22 (KJV)
Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?

James 2:26 (KJV) For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

[TrueBlue?]

Originally Posted by True Believer

Yes, that is what I have been trying to say to alan. After you have faith works just don't randomly start coming to you. You always have free will to do good works or to not do them. If you don't do them, if that is your choice then you have little faith.

That is exactly what James chapter 2 teaches us. James 2:14 (KJV) What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?


James 2:22 (KJV)
Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?

James 2:26 (KJV) For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

Couldn't have said it better myself!

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by TrueBlue?

My desire to do good works is a result of faith in Christ, but the works do not just flow through me? I am still free to choose to obey. My desire to follow Christ is conflicted with desire to do evil(temptation), I must choose to obey Christ, else my faith does little for me.

But what if you don't do all of the things that are required for exaltation. Will you still be exalted?

[alanmolstad]

Ummm..... we are saved by GRACE not faith.......


Why am I the only one that catches that verse? Lol

[TrueBlue?]

Originally Posted by Billyray

But what if you don't do all of the things that are required for exaltation. Will you still be exalted?

After all I can do. Who is the judge of that? God.

By the way what does that have to do with what the scriptures state?

[TrueBlue?]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

Ummm..... we are saved by GRACE not faith.......


Why am I the only one that catches that verse? Lol

I would have no disagreement with that statement. I could have 100% perfect faith and 100% perfect works, but without the grace of Christ I will not enter into the Kingdom of God.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by TrueBlue?

After all I can do. Who is the judge of that? God.

By the way what does that have to do with what the scriptures state?

Mormonism teaches that you are required to do a checklist of things in order to be exalted. This is a works based salvation.

[True Believer]

True Blue and I are trying to explain to you how faith and good works are equal. How you can't have one or the other you must have both. We are not saying works alone or faith alone saves you.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by True Believer

True Blue and I are trying to explain to you how faith and good works are equal. How you can't have one or the other you must have both. We are not saying works alone or faith alone saves you.

Don't you have faith before you have works?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by True Believer

True Blue and I are trying to explain to you how faith and good works are equal. How you can't have one or the other you must have both. We are not saying works alone or faith alone saves you.

But works do not contribute for salvation YET mormonism teaches that works are required for exhalation. This is a contradiction.

[True Believer]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Don't you have faith before you have works?

Yes, but that doesn't mean that they are not equal.

[TrueBlue?]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Mormonism teaches that you are required to do a checklist of things in order to be exalted. This is a works based salvation.

Act_5:32 And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.

Billy, do you consider the scripture above works based?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by TrueBlue?

Billy, do you consider the scripture above works based?

Salvation is not works based. Mormonism teaches a works based salvation/exaltation.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by TrueBlue?

Billy, do you consider the scripture above works based?

Here is the verse that you quoted in context.

Acts 5
27*The apostles were brought in and made to appear before the Sanhedrin to be questioned by the high priest.
28*“We gave you strict orders not to teach in this name,” he said. “Yet you have filled Jerusalem with your teaching and are determined to make us guilty of this man’s blood.”
29*Peter and the other apostles replied: “We must obey God rather than human beings!
30*The God of our ancestors raised Jesus from the dead—whom you killed by hanging him on a cross. 31*God exalted him to his own right hand as Prince and Savior that he might bring Israel to repentance and forgive their sins.
32*We are witnesses of these things, and so is the Holy Spirit, whom God has given to those who obey him.”

Why did you quote this section of scripture because it is not speaking about salvation?

Did you even bother looking at the context of the surrounding verses before you quoted it?